Would you upgrade or stop?

[lovinthehd]

More smart value add improvements. Someone else might see something I don’t.

More pimp juice too

I think you're overthinking it somewhat Pimp juice?

 

[JDM3030]

I think you're overthinking it somewhat Pimp juice?

Probability am overthinking. It’s more fun to overthink than under think though. I’m think just trying learn something but your point is well taken.

 

[PENG]

Is it fair to say that what you are really recommending is to lose the Dayton amp all together? If it’s not good enough for the center channel, why use it for the surrounds other than to find a place to use it?

The audiosciencereview reviewer sort of did too. IMO if that's the only amp you have, sure go ahead and use it in whatever way if you can't hear the difference, but you have two better (in terms of fidelity related specs) amps so you have choice. Regardless of whether the differences are audible, it can't hurt to put the ones with the lowest specs in the surrounds where fidelity is a little less important than the LCR.

 

[lovinthehd]

The audiosciencereview reviewer sort of did too. IMO if that's the only amp you have, sure go ahead and use it in whatever way if you can't hear the difference, but you have two better (in terms of fidelity related specs) amps so you have choice. Regardless of whether the differences are audible, it can't hurt to put the ones with the lowest specs in the surrounds where fidelity is a little less important than the LCR.

Keep in mind that Amir has his nose stuck into the high end most thoroughly and makes snide comments about pretty much everything else and angles for the highest level of spec even when somewhat meaningless. He is a high-end dealer after all.

 

[Pogre]

Probability am overthinking. It’s more fun to overthink than under think though. I’m think just trying learn something but your point is well taken.

I think a lot of what you're exploring would be moving more or less laterally or gaining very little. You're absolutely doing the right thing to research this stuff tho. I've been digging into home audio equipment for a couple years now and still get surprised.

I agree with letting the yammy power the mains and offload the surrounds to the external amp. At the end of the day all 7 channels still share the same power supply. This would free it up for just the front 2.

 

[JDM3030]

Hey it’s free so I’ll give it a shot. At some point in the next week or two, I’ll throw my center channel back to the Yamaha. I’ll also throw the rear surround on the Dayton. I’ll see how it sounds, particularly the center channel.

Again, the input is appreciated. This is exactly why I posted here. Fantastic feedback.

 

[JDM3030]

I think a lot of what you're exploring would be moving more or less laterally or gaining very little. You're absolutely doing the right thing to research this stuff tho. I've been digging into home audio equipment for a couple years now and still get surprised.

I agree with letting the yammy power the mains and offload the surrounds to the external amp. At the end of the day all 7 channels still share the same power supply. This would free it up for just the front 2.

My fear regarding the Yamaha powering the front mains is this...
I cross my mains over at 60 hz. When I really listen to music, I sometimes listen loud, even more so than movies. I don’t do it for an extended time but I like to “feel” the air move a little. When I get it to the volume I want, the 10-20% warning lights start to flicker on my Crown. But the Crown is still providing the boom. But whether I’m right or wrong, I doubt the Yamaha could perform at that volume. But I will concede the Yamaha May outperform at a more typical volume (which is my usually volume). That’s the real reason I’m clinging to that amp for the mains.

 

[lovinthehd]

My fear regarding the Yamaha powering the front mains is this...
I cross my mains over at 60 hz. When I really listen to music, I sometimes listen loud, even more so than movies. I don’t do it for an extended time but I like to “feel” the air move a little. When I get it to the volume I want, the 10-20% warning lights start to flicker on my Crown. But the Crown is still providing the boom. But whether I’m right or wrong, I doubt the Yamaha could perform at that volume. But I will concede the Yamaha May outperform at a more typical volume (which is my usually volume). That’s the real reason I’m clinging to that amp for the mains.

For better 2ch performance the Crown I think is the best choice....

 

[PENG]

Keep in mind that Amir has his nose stuck into the high end most thoroughly and makes snide comments about pretty much everything else and angles for the highest level of spec even when somewhat meaningless. He is a high-end dealer after all.

I do know that, I think he also know the measured differences often would make no audible difference. We just like better specs and measurements regardless.

 

[PENG]

Hey it’s free so I’ll give it a shot. At some point in the next week or two, I’ll throw my center channel back to the Yamaha. I’ll also throw the rear surround on the Dayton. I’ll see how it sounds, particularly the center channel.

Again, the input is appreciated. This is exactly why I posted here. Fantastic feedback.

Try xo 80 or higher too.

 

[PENG]

For better 2ch performance the Crown I think is the best choice....

If he likes ref loud, yes.

 

[lovinthehd]

If he likes ref loud, yes.

Just the most powerful amp among them so best for 2ch performance to my mind. Loud would be a key factor...at low listening levels the external amps are superfluous....

 

[PENG]

Just the most powerful amp among them so best for 2ch performance to my mind. Loud would be a key factor...at low listening levels the external amps are superfluous....

It's really the peaks that make such amps "sound" different, so it also depends on the kind of music one listens to. As we all seem to know, 20 dB peaks = 100 X output power required, so I normally need 0.1 W average or less for critical music listening in Stereo in my medium/small room, but I probably have digital files that have the very occasional 20 dB peak, so I probably need 10 W. I would like to have 10X that just in case, and to feel good, so to me I need 100 W, so yeah if I had an AVR to do the job, external amps are superfluous, yet I still have quite a few..... Now anyone want to buy my overly heavy A21 (the 4BSST's sold), PM me?

 

[JDM3030]

It's really the peaks that make such amps "sound" different, so it also depends on the kind of music one listens to. As we all seem to know, 20 dB peaks = 100 X output power required, so I normally need 0.1 W average or less for critical music listening in Stereo in my medium/small room, but I probably have digital files that have the very occasional 20 dB peak, so I probably need 10 W. I would like to have 10X that just in case, and to feel good, so to me I need 100 W, so yeah if I had an AVR to do the job, external amps are superfluous, yet I still have quite a few..... Now anyone want to buy my overly heavy A21 (the 4BSST's sold),PM me?

In terms of the music I listen to... I listen to anything from heavy metal to Melissa Manchester. I am pretty diverse so it's easier to say what I don't listen to. I don't listen to much R&B, rap, etc. 98% of the music I listen to has a human drummer. I don't listen at reference levels but I do like to push the volume at times. I could have my AVR set to anything between -30 db and -5 db. Average would probably be in that -15 to -20 range. It really depends on the way the song is mastered and how loud the original recording is. My source is usually Spotify played through the Yamaha MusicCast sent direct to my AVR via Wifi.

It sounds to me like there is a consensus that my current weak point are my center channel amp and my subs. Any sub upgrades are at least a year out because that would involve some meaningful cash. I could upgrade the center channel amp sooner if I wanted depending on what I want to do. I could either throw the center channel back on the AVR and move the rear surrounds to the Dayton. Alternatively, I could get a Crown 1502 for my fronts and move the 1002 to the center channel. Or I could go with some other amp. Just the idea I had for now.

Some don't seem to think too highly of the Crown amp but I have really enjoyed what it can do. There is a healthy amount of head room so it played with lots of authority and clarity for me. At least that's what my novice ear senses. I am sure there are better amps but for the price, I have been so impressed with the Crown. The Crown is also very easy to run with my AVR as I set up a trigger on/off so the amp goes to sleep automatically when I turn off my AVR and comes back on when I turn it on. I acknowledge that I might not know what i am hearing though.

 

[PENG]

Alternatively, I could get a Crown 1502 for my fronts and move the 1002 to the center channel. Or I could go with some other amp. Just the idea I had for now.

That seems like the best idea since you like the 1002 so much. The 1502 can only be better, audibly better or not. Another option is the Outlaw monoblock. It goes on sale for $299, or less for the "B" stock quite often. You are no hurry so you can wait for it to go on sale. That's what I use for my center channel now and I am very happy with it.

 

[highfigh]

OK so I have spend the last couple years trying to build a versatile audio system that can perform well for movies, video games and 2 channel music. I think I have a "good" system but it's nothing over the top. I still find myself looking for more sometimes though. Am I nuts or should I stop? Have I reached a point of diminishing return?

My room is approx. 19'x19' with 7.5' ceiling height. The room is closed in minus a doorway size opening in the middle of the rear wall. The rear wall is brick while all other walls and ceiling is smooth drywall. The floor is wall-to-wall carpet.

My system is a 7.2 and includes the following:
Yamaha RX-A880 AVR (100w 2 channels driven)
Fronts: Klipsch RP-260F's
Side Surround: Klipsch RP-150M's
Rear Surround: Klipsch RP-150M's
Center: Klipsch RP-250C
Duel Subs: SVS PB-1000's

My fronts are powered by a Crown XLS 1002 power amp in stereo mode (215W per channel)
My center is powered by a Dayton Audio APA150 power amp in bridge mode (150W)
All surrounds are powered by the AVR.

I also have floor to ceiling GIK bass traps and a few GIK panels for side wall first reflections.


Does anyone see a point of weakness? I am operating under the assumption that the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Thanks!

I only read the first page, but IMO, your room's dimensions would be the weak link, for me- you don't want the dimensions to be equal or an even multiple of any of them and 19' x 19' is a bit of a problem-look into room modes and standing waves.

 

[JDM3030]

I only read te first page, but IMO, your room's dimensions would be the weak link, for me- you don't want the dimensions to be equal or an even multiple of any of them and 19' x 19' is a bit of a problem-look into room modes and standing waves.

All true and nothing I can do about it.

 

[JDM3030]

That seems like the best idea since you like the 1002 so much. The 1502 can only be better, audibly better or not. Another option is the Outlaw monoblock. It goes on sale for $299, or less for the "B" stock quite often. You are no hurry so you can wait for it to go on sale. That's what I use for my center channel now and I am very happy with it.

That isn't a bad suggestion. I will look into that. Buying the Dayton may have been a failed experiment.

 

[RichB]

Sorry, I did remember you have the 205, it was my typo.. If you do get close to reference level, imo a pair of bridged AHB2 is a good idea, because that amp's distortion vs output curve has a very sharp knee point, shots straight up not much pass that point. I wonder if it is a characteristics of its SMPS.

I watched Aquaman 4K UHD with the XMC-1 at -20, typically, I would watch it at -25.
This title has full range bass in the mains and serious bass in all channels.
During the kraken scene (chapter 12, I think), the Salon2 woofers (not bass managed) were really moving.
Not once did the clip indicators light.

I am a big believer in the first watt and for the fun of it I measured some typical listening levels on the XMC-1.
At -37, the 1.45 volts. At -31, 2.82 volts. I have a Radio Shack meter and several mics and will be measuring the SPL at my seated position obtain better estimates for power requirements. I have played bass heavy pop music tracks record right up to digital clipping, and the volume is sufficient for my needs.

Benchmark uses an FPGA (for protection) that are not in the signal chain and, from other forums, it appears conservative but does not limit.
The tightly regulated SMPS is not going to have the headroom off a non-regulated linear power supply.
The specs state 29A peak current so that may give a better indication of dynamic power. What does that indicate for watts, say into 4 Ohms?
BTW, there were some posts Audiosciencereview that Revel Performa 228be, due to impedance and phase angle provide a load equivalent to 2.8 Ohms.
That looks to be not a suitable load for an AVR. Even though, the AVR and benchmark both are spec'ed with similar power into 8 (and possibly) 4 Ohms.

BTW, I also was testing the Benchmark LA-4 compared to the XMC-1 (fully balanced) analog inputs and the LA-4 does improve the clarity that is audible on some tracks.
The connection were:

Oppo UPD-205 XLR -> XMC-1 XLR -> LA-4 (Fixed gain) -> AHB2
Oppo UPD-205 XLR --> LA-4 (Variable gain) -> AHB2
The LA-4 was used to instantly switch inputs with volumes leveled.

The difference is not earth shattering but worthwhile (IMO) for those that listen to 2-channel music without bass-management. I suppose that is a small population.
It is interesting because when we listen to a component there is the DSP, DAC, and volume control implementation in the chain and most of these are not measured at different volume levels, especially the levels that we commonly listen.

- Rich

 

[highfigh]

All true and nothing I can do about it.

Actually, you can- if you can put a chair, bookcase or something else in the corners, you can diffuse the energy from the low frequencies and that will help to make the bass smoother. If you clap your hands, you may hear a rapid echo- this is called 'flutter' and if you still hear it with your GIK treatments, you may need to move what you have or add to them.