Would you upgrade or stop?

[PENG]

I believe Crown recommends using the 0.775V output for home use. I hear your argument though.

I know I don't understand it on your level but here is my reply/explanation...
I have been running my Crown for the two front using the 0.775V setting per Crown's recommendation. I knew when I got the amp that the SN Ratio was something to be mindful of, particularly with efficient speakers, home use and the amp. So I took a chance and got the Crown with a critical ear to any hiss when the volume was up and there was nothing playing. If I pressed my ear right up against the horn, I could hear a super feint hiss. However, it was so low in volume I didn't care and was happy because practically speaking I couldn't ever hear outside of that extreme circumstance.

In terms of the Crown performance for my fronts... I have been very pleased actually. I felt like they gave the speakers a shot of adrenaline. They seemed to have more authority and punch. Now I could have totally been imagining that because that's what i wanted to believe...

I think you've got it!

I am surprised, as I thought with those Klipsch horns you just might hear hiss with the higher gain setting.
The thing is, even if you set it to 1.4 V, you have nothing to loose because with those speakers in your room you will likely need less than 0.5 watt on average per channel and may peak to 50 Watt occasionally, though not likely. At 100 Watt/8 ohms output, the A880 needs only output about 1 V, and it will be very happy at that level. With the more sensitive 0.775 V setting on the XLS, the A880 will be able to drive the it to its rated 200 W/8 ohm and the signal should remain super clean.

@lovinthehd linked the audiosciencereview.xom review on the XLS1502, and below is the link to Audioholics.com review on the RX-A880

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

They both use the AP instrument for their bench test, the 1502 has better noise spec than the 1002 aside from being more powerful, and the RX-A880 may have some slight improvements over the A860, so those reviews should, for the most part, apply to the A880 and XLS1002 as well.

No doubt the A880 has better audio specs but if you like the performance of the Crown driving the mains, then just leave it along for sure. You may still want to consider using the A880 for the center because for movies, the center channel gets the lion's share of contents.

 

[JDM3030]

I think you've got it!

I am surprised, as I thought with those Klipsch horns you just might hear hiss with the higher gain setting.
The thing is, even if you set it to 1.4 V, you have nothing to loose because with those speakers in your room you will likely need less than 0.5 watt on average per channel and may peak to 50 Watt occasionally, though not likely. At 100 Watt/8 ohms output, the A880 needs only output about 1 V, and it will be very happy at that level. With the more sensitive 0.775 V setting on the XLS, the A880 will be able to drive the it to its rated 200 W/8 ohm and the signal should remain super clean.

@lovinthehd linked the audiosciencereview.xom review on the XLS1502, and below is the link to Audioholics.com review on the RX-A880

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

They both use the AP instrument for their bench test, the 1502 has better noise spec than the 1002 aside from being more powerful, and the RX-A880 may have some slight improvements over the A860, so those reviews should, for the most part, apply to the A880 and XLS1002 as well.

No doubt the A880 has better audio specs but if you like the performance of the Crown driving the mains, then just leave it along for sure. You may still want to consider using the A880 for the center because for movies, the center channel gets the lion's share of contents.

Thanks. That is really good feedback and gives me a lot to consider.

 

[Pogre]

I feel like a broken record recommending subs all the time, but IMO, and pretty sure yours, enough can’t be said about great bass. And of course, I don’t mean that trunk rattling 30hz crap driving up and down roads lol.
Bass is an investment, and extends well after buying the best subs for you. Placement, eq, xo, etc all add up.

Really good, true clean bass is something you just have to experience. I loved my little SB 1000's (and they're great for what they are, they just don't pack a lot of power), but didn't know what I was missing until I got appropriately sized subs in my big room.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks. It is mine actually
Have a few others. Love electric guitars!

Nice! I do too. Played drums my whole life, but also enjoy playing guitar, although my proficiency is lower than drumming. Have a couple guitars too, and 3 drum kits upstairs in my studio. We have a piano and keyboards too. Enough for the whole neighborhood!!! Lol

 

[JDM3030]

I think you've got it!

I am surprised, as I thought with those Klipsch horns you just might hear hiss with the higher gain setting.
The thing is, even if you set it to 1.4 V, you have nothing to loose because with those speakers in your room you will likely need less than 0.5 watt on average per channel and may peak to 50 Watt occasionally, though not likely. At 100 Watt/8 ohms output, the A880 needs only output about 1 V, and it will be very happy at that level. With the more sensitive 0.775 V setting on the XLS, the A880 will be able to drive the it to its rated 200 W/8 ohm and the signal should remain super clean.

@lovinthehd linked the audiosciencereview.xom review on the XLS1502, and below is the link to Audioholics.com review on the RX-A880

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

They both use the AP instrument for their bench test, the 1502 has better noise spec than the 1002 aside from being more powerful, and the RX-A880 may have some slight improvements over the A860, so those reviews should, for the most part, apply to the A880 and XLS1002 as well.

No doubt the A880 has better audio specs but if you like the performance of the Crown driving the mains, then just leave it along for sure. You may still want to consider using the A880 for the center because for movies, the center channel gets the lion's share of contents.

Maybe this leads to a different question. I think part of the reason I’ve been gravitating to external amps because I don’t truly understand the power of the Yamaha A880. It’s is advertised as 100 watts two channels driven into 8 ohms. However, it’s all discreet amps for each of the 7 channels correct? So if I use an external amp for my fronts, those amps get “wasted”. So how much power should I expect to be delivered for the center channel and surrounds? Would it not be less than the 100 watts for the fronts? And why would using Yamaha fronts decrease power to the other channels as some people claim? I think I’m just very fuzzy on how an AVR delivered power to each channel and how it’s all interrelates.

 

[JDM3030]

Nice! I do too. Played drums my whole life, but also enjoy playing guitar, although my proficiency is lower than drumming. Have a couple guitars too, and 3 drum kits upstairs in my studio. We have a piano and keyboards too. Enough for the whole neighborhood!!! Lol

Good stuff. I don’t profess to be a great guitar player but I enjoy it regardless. I have 4 electric guitars. The epiphone explorer with EMGs. Then I have an 88 Gibson SG special 3 knob that’s been heavily modified. Also a 2016 Gibson LP Standard. Finally a 2017 PRS Singlecut. I run them all through a 40 watt Marshall. Great fun!!!

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe this leads to a different question. I think part of the reason I’ve been gravitating to external amps because I don’t truly understand the power of the Yamaha A880. It’s is advertised as 100 watts two channels driven into 8 ohms. However, it’s all discreet amps for each of the 7 channels correct? So if I use an external amp for my fronts, those amps get “wasted”. So how much power should I expect to be delivered for the center channel and surrounds? Would it not be less than the 100 watts for the fronts? And why would using Yamaha fronts decrease power to the other channels as some people claim? I think I’m just very fuzzy on how an AVR delivered power to each channel and how it’s all interrelates.

Think of the 7 discrete amp channels each on it's own to be capable of 100wpc (if content of any one channel needs such at a given moment), but as you add channels power supply can be limited and/or the Yamaha's protection circuitry clamps down a bit (Yamaha is known to have more aggressive protection circuitry). If you're not using a particular amp channel or two that would free up the power supply somewhat. The amount of power a surround needs is still related to the surrounds' sensitivity....imagine the surround channel is seeing 6 dB less content but if the surround speakers are 6dB less sensitive then it's a wash. Hope that makes sense....

 

[RichB]

You and I both know that sort of things won't be audible but highly visible to audiophiles. I bet someone like @RichB (with due respect) will not use such an amp in his "Hifi stereo" set up because it would logically (not debatable really, even for him I would think..) render his up stream device such as the Oppo 105, HA-1's and his other higher end media players/preamps with superior audio specs meaningless.

My ears are ringing.
I no longer own the Oppo HA-1 not 105D. I have two Oppo UDP-205's and a UPD-205 mostly paid for by the sale of the aforementioned.
I have downsized my ATI6000 amps, replacing them with Benchmark AHB2s.
As a result,

• the idle power went down from approximately 300 watts to 80 watts
• weight was decreased by 262 lbs.,
• fans are no longer needed, and
• all transformer hum eliminated.

I was able to fund most of the upgrade by selling the ATI's.

The front 3 channels Salon2's and Voice2 are passively bi-amped. Horrors!

Playing Lorde Royals at +15 (Benchmark LA-4 and AHB2 in low gain mode) is required to clip the amp driving the Salon2 3 x 8" bass drivers.
This is louder than I care to listen these days. I have not clipped movies at reference levels, even though, that is theoretically possible.
It's a really nice feature to have clip-indicators on each channel.
There is always the option to mono-block (380 WPC 8 Ohms),but thus-far, I have not found the need.

Concerning upgrades, well, I am not dead yet
I just bought an LG 77C9 and paying tuition for the girls so I done from a few years and probably done for amps, unless something cheaper and equal (or better) is available.

- Rich

 

[JDM3030]

Think of the 7 discrete amp channels each on it's own to be capable of 100wpc (if content of any one channel needs such at a given moment), but as you add channels power supply can be limited and/or the Yamaha's protection circuitry clamps down a bit (Yamaha is known to have more aggressive protection circuitry). If you're not using a particular amp channel or two that would free up the power supply somewhat. The amount of power a surround needs is still related to the surrounds' sensitivity....imagine the surround channel is seeing 6 dB less content but if the surround speakers are 6dB less sensitive then it's a wash. Hope that makes sense....

Actually that was a very good explanation. Thank you.

 

[PENG]

My ears are ringing.
I no longer own the Oppo HA-1 not 105D. I have two Oppo UDP-205's and a UPD-205 mostly paid for by the sale of the aforementioned.
I have downsized my ATI6000 amps, replacing them with Benchmark AHB2s.
As a result,

• the idle power went down from approximately 300 watts to 80 watts
• weight was decreased by 262 lbs.,
• fans are no longer needed, and
• all transformer hum eliminated.

I was able to fund most of the upgrade by selling the ATI's.

The front 3 channels Salon2's and Voice2 are passively bi-amped. Horrors!

Playing Lorde Royals at +15 (Benchmark LA-4 and AHB2 in low gain mode) is required to clip the amp driving the Salon2 3 x 8" bass drivers.
This is louder than I care to listen these days. I have not clipped movies at reference levels, even though, that is theoretically possible.
It's a really nice feature to have clip-indicators on each channel.
There is always the option to mono-block (380 WPC 8 Ohms),but thus-far, I have not found the need.

Concerning upgrades, well, I am not dead yet
I just bought an LG 77C9 and paying tuition for the girls so I done from a few years and probably done for amps, unless something cheaper and equal (or better) is available.

- Rich

Sorry, I did remember you have the 205, it was my typo.. If you do get close to reference level, imo a pair of bridged AHB2 is a good idea, because that amp's distortion vs output curve has a very sharp knee point, shots straight up not much pass that point. I wonder if it is a characteristics of its SMPS.

 

[snakeeyes]

I try to avoid external amps and the potential for hum.

The Yamaha separates flagship with the matching amp with the 2 prong cord would probably work for me though.

 

[JDM3030]

That's because you said you had a good system now, so I assume you are reasonably happy about what you have. As such, I would focus on getting the best out of what you have already, by using the RX-A880 to power the left and right for critical music listening.

The AVR has better specs on paper than the XLS 1002. It is less powerful, but even if the RP-260F dips to 4 or 3 ohms at a couple points in the 30-100 Hz range, the RX-A880 should have no trouble pushing over 100 W into such loads. Yamaha rated its dynamic power 240 W into 2 ohms, two channel driven. That's obviously just for short duration, and it would do a lot less, say 1/2 to 1/4 of that for longer duration but that's more than enough for the RP-260F especially if you set the crossovers for the L/R to 80 Hz. So choosing the AVR over the Crown is a matter of quality over quantity.

The reason I suggested to use the more powerful XLS 1002 to power the center channel is simple. For action movies, the center channel will most likely draw more power from the amp than the L/R, not more than L+R, but more than L, or R on average.

The APA150 has the lowest audio specs of the 3, and that's why I would use them to drive the surround speakers.

It may not make any audible difference, but it costs you nothing to try.

Is it fair to say that what you are really recommending is to lose the Dayton amp all together? If it’s not good enough for the center channel, why use it for the surrounds other than to find a place to use it?

 

[lovinthehd]

Just in case it's useful https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-dayton-audio-apa-150-amp.6571/

 

[ryanosaur]

Is it fair to say that what you are really recommending is to lose the Dayton amp all together? If it’s not good enough for the center channel, why use it for the surrounds other than to find a place to use it?

The surrounds are less taxing in most usage, requiring less power. The center requires much more as it is the most important speaker in HT usage.

 

[JDM3030]

The surrounds are less taxing in most usage, requiring less power. The center requires much more as it is the most important speaker in HT usage.

Yes but why would it make sense to use the Dayton for the surround if they are less power AND LESS FIDELITY?

What if... I used the Crown 1002 for the center and then got a Crown 1502 for the fronts? Sell the Dayton... I know the 1502 has better SN Ratio than the 1002. Would I still be compromising? That doesn’t strike me as terribly expensive upgrade. And to be honest, I don’t think my center channel sound good at loud volumes now but I don’t know if that the speaker, amp or just the challenging acoustics of it sitting in an entertainment stand.

 

[JDM3030]

Just in case it's useful https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-dayton-audio-apa-150-amp.6571/

I did read that before I got the Dayton believe it or not. I wasn’t sure what if that I’d be able to hear or what was just overkill stats. It was cheap so I took a chance.

 

[KEW]

Yes but why would it make sense to use the Dayton for the surround if they are less power AND LESS FIDELITY?

Unless you are listening to music that was recorded to include the surrounds (not standard stereo recordings),the surrounds generally see very little power hungry content. Thus it makes sense to put the 75WPC Dayton amplifier on the surrounds. The fidelity should be good enough. Any modern amp should not be producing noise at audible levels when driven within its capacity.
Using the Dayton Audio amp will allow the Yamaha amp to have more power for the L & R speakers.
Looking at your AVR (and similar AB class power amps),the Transformer and Capacitors are resources which are drawn on, as needed, by all channels. After that comes the separation into discreet channels. The published power rating is for two channels driven (despite the confusing way the marketing department might advertise it as a 100WPC 7 channel AVR or such). If someone were to attempt to get 100 RMS watts out of all channels at once the unit would shut down very quickly because the transformer/capacitors cannot sustain that!
Accordingly, having the surrounds on a separate amp helps insure your R & L channels will not be starved from upstream!
So you see that while saying the channels are discreet is technically correct, there is still a lot of interdependence effecting the performance capability. It is marketing BS and it seems every major AVR company has accepted it as SOP.
Among pedestrian (in the $100's of dollars price range),Outlaw Audio is the only company I know that really specifies an honest, all channel driven capability. They are very clear about it:

Specifications

Power output: 120 watts RMS x 5 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.02% total harmonic distortion, A-weight filter). 180 watts RMS x 5 (all channels driven simultaneously into 4 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.03% total harmonic distortion, A-weight filter)

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/5000.html
While I applaud them for being forthright, it also seems kind of dumb because if they used the same convention as everyone else, these specs would be translate to something like ~170WPC (instead of 120) into 8 ohms and ~230WPC (instead of 180) into 4 ohms! Most customers would not recognize the difference and I suspect they have lost a lot of sales by being such uniquely honest Outlaws!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I still find myself looking for more

More what?

More bragging rights?

More pride of ownership?

More things to cross off your bucket list?

More bass?

 

[JDM3030]

More what?

More bragging rights?

More pride of ownership?

More things to cross off your bucket list?

More bass?

More smart value add improvements. Someone else might see something I don’t.

More pimp juice too

 

[lovinthehd]

I did read that before I got the Dayton believe it or not. I wasn’t sure what if that I’d be able to hear or what was just overkill stats. It was cheap so I took a chance.

Seems like a good amp, like the Crown, nothing wrong with either of them fidelity-wise.