The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[KEW]

Thank you for contributing. It's direct drive. Your first premise is still something to look at though, but it requires disassembly so it comes after I rule out the suspension.

I've devised a test for suspension. This will be an easy test. I'll insert rubber rings in the suspension. In the place where it uses rubber anyway. This way I will prolong the excursion and hopefully separate the upper chassis part from the lower as it was intended when it was made. If this stops the problem, I'm in the clear. Fingers crossed.

Could you also perform a test my installing the shipping screws so the suspension is locked down? Seems like a good way to eliminate any issues you could blame on the suspension!

 

[killdozzer]

Could you also perform a test my installing the shipping screws so the suspension is locked down? Seems like a good way to eliminate any issues you could blame on the suspension!

Good thinking, man!! But the screws are back at my family house far away from here.

Yes, if you put the shipping screws in, they hold the platter as high as possible and away from what's beneath it. I'd just hate to choose a wrong screw and mess the leads in the screw hole.

 

[killdozzer]

Could you also perform a test my installing the shipping screws so the suspension is locked down? Seems like a good way to eliminate any issues you could blame on the suspension!

You actually gave me a good idea; I can simulate shipping screws being in place by resting my TT on its belly between the foots. This I can do before even buying the rubber needed for my test. I just need a narrow stand, like a speaker stand and if I put my TT on the stand it will lift the lower part all the way to the upper. All scratching (if there's any) should stop. I just need to put something soft on the stand.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would have thought it would be easy to identify a mechanical problem. You should be able to hear it with a stethoscope or listening with a metal rod against the chassis. In addition any point of contact should be visible.

This is the diagram of the Technics system.

So the coils are in the stator and fixed. The magnets are in the rotor which is the turntable. The field to each coil ebbs and flows from a saw tooth generator under the control of speed detector and the Hall effect position detector.

Now electric fileds are very hard. So if for instance one of those many stator coils became dead, then the turntable would hit a wall as hard as a mechanical obstruction. If it were one coil then the vibration frequency would be 33 1/3 per sec. It would occur at exactly the same place every time. If you don't find evidence of anything mechanical then something like this is your problem.

Incidentally although these turntables are high torque, the torque is not that uniform. There is a "cogging" effect as magnets pass the stator coils. The turntable gets a little shove from each one as it passes with a rise and tail. Many feel this effect is audible and that is why the high end turntables are not direct drive.

 

[killdozzer]

Bad news. It's not the platter. The bearings are the last thing I'm going to check.

 

[TLS Guy]

It is too bad that you don't have the SL 1200. The parts seem plentiful for those. New stators are available for $35 each. It seems stator failure is a known problem of these turntables so that is likely the problem.

On your turntable which is a cheaper version of the 1200 series it seems the stator is integral with the control board. Used boards seem to come up bu the stator seems to be removed. This is possibly because they are failure prone. I did find information that the SL202 stator is slightly smaller than the one on the 1200. If you could find a completer board and stator that would fix your turntable I think.

It that PCB with the stator ring you are looking for.

 

[killdozzer]

It is too bad that you don't have the SL 1200. The parts seem plentiful for those. New stators are available for $35 each. It seems stator failure is a known problem of these turntables so that is likely the problem.

On your turntable which is a cheaper version of the 1200 series it seems the stator is integral with the control board. Used boards seem to come up bu the stator seems to be removed. This is possibly because they are failure prone. I did find information that the SL202 stator is slightly smaller than the one on the 1200. If you could find a completer board and stator that would fix your turntable I think.

It that PCB with the stator ring you are looking for.

Way over my head and good service men are hard to find these days. I wanted this TT to work because of the sentimental value. I do have some records and I thought; well, I won't go looking for another TT, I'll keep this one both for the memory and for the practical use.

I might ask around a little bit to see if there's anyone I could trust with this. And I still intend to see if the bearings are clean. I suspect one other thing you've mentioned long time ago; the stopping mechanism. I've noticed it's pretty hard to start this TT, meaning when you lift the tone arm and start its way to the record's edge, there's a hard "clunk" in the switch that starts the rotating.

In your opinion how come this is not audible? Thing is, I only suspect that the performance difference between my TT and my brother's is due to this. We have exactly the same model, played through Yamaha AVR's phono input (both of us), and we had our TT's placed beneath the level of the speakers and on a separate, small coffee table. Similar size room, though my speakers are far more superior to what he has. Still, his set up sounds very, very good.

My TT sounds as if it's being played through one of these:

Very messy, inarticulate in comparison not to a digital file, but to the other TT of same make and model.

 

[TLS Guy]

Way over my head and good service men are hard to find these days. I wanted this TT to work because of the sentimental value. I do have some records and I thought; well, I won't go looking for another TT, I'll keep this one both for the memory and for the practical use.

I might ask around a little bit to see if there's anyone I could trust with this. And I still intend to see if the bearings are clean. I suspect one other thing you've mentioned long time ago; the stopping mechanism. I've noticed it's pretty hard to start this TT, meaning when you lift the tone arm and start its way to the record's edge, there's a hard "clunk" in the switch that starts the rotating.

In your opinion how come this is not audible? Thing is, I only suspect that the performance difference between my TT and my brother's is due to this. We have exactly the same model, played through Yamaha AVR's phono input (both of us), and we had our TT's placed beneath the level of the speakers and on a separate, small coffee table. Similar size room, though my speakers are far more superior to what he has. Still, his set up sounds very, very good.

My TT sounds as if it's being played through one of these:
View attachment 29974
Very messy, inarticulate in comparison not to a digital file, but to the other TT of same make and model.

I would certainly look closely at that auto return system. That certainly should be kept on the list of suspects. No decent turntable should have such contraptions designed by engineers wandering in from the bicycle industry. I universally recommend disconnecting them, and letting the arm run free which it should.

 

[killdozzer]

So, this is what I'm looking for:
https://organdonorparts.com/Technics-SL-Q202-Turntable-Main-Board-P509-12.htm

Right? Still, this is in your parts and starting with 45$.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, this is what I'm looking for:
https://organdonorparts.com/Technics-SL-Q202-Turntable-Main-Board-P509-12.htm

Right? Still, this is in your parts and starting with 45$.

If you exclude everything else the probability is high that, that is just what you need to get your turntable up and running properly.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would certainly look closely at that auto return system. That certainly should be kept on the list of suspects. No decent turntable should have such contraptions designed by engineers wandering in from the bicycle industry. I universally recommend disconnecting them, and letting the arm run free which it should.

LOL that's funny. Bike mechanics built the first plane and are pretty smart fellows today too. A "record player" engineer does what?

 

[TLS Guy]

LOL that's funny. Bike mechanics built the first plane and are pretty smart fellows today too. A "record player" engineer does what?

My point is that bike engineering is really crude compared to turntable engineering. A good turntable requires about the most precise engineering on the planet. Its apparent simplicity hides considerable complexity. Cheap ones usually do not sound very good. Precisely crafted ones can sound very good indeed. A great engineer Alastair Robertson - Aikman devoted the best part of his life to perfecting the playing of LPs. To ask a tone arm to work a mechanism through a chain of levers and controls is actually something a bicycle engineer might well come up with and its totally inappropriate.

 

[lovinthehd]

My point is that bike engineering is really crude compared to turntable engineering. A good turntable requires about the most precise engineering on the planet. Its apparent simplicity hides considerable complexity. Cheap ones usually do not sound very good. Precisely crafted ones can sound very good indeed. A great engineer Alastair Robertson - Aikman devoted the best part of his life to perfecting the playing of LPs. To ask a tone arm to work a mechanism through a chain of levers and controls is actually something a bicycle engineer might well come up with and its totally inappropriate.

Sure, whatever you say. All those advancements in playing a piece of stamped plastic....has it actually changed in the last 40 years? Bicycles are more complex than you' think more than likely and have evolved quite a bit particularly over the last 40 years.

 

[KEW]

My TT sounds as if it's being played through one of these:
View attachment 29974
Very messy, inarticulate in comparison not to a digital file, but to the other TT of same make and model.

LOL!
I like the way they decided it was important that "BELT DRIVE" dominate the face of this unit!

 

[killdozzer]

If you exclude everything else the probability is high that, that is just what you need to get your turntable up and running properly.

Two questions that seem important to me:
Should I even try to order the said part from US? Meaning, when and where in chain does the voltage of the grid stop being important? Is there a point after which it's all the same or perhaps there's no such point? Can US parts be used for EU equipment?

And the other one; I took some time to read and think about all this stator business you've proposed and I must say I find the fact that it happenes every full circle contraindicative of what you're saying. Even if it's only one bad stator, it should make the stylus jump at least twice, right?

 

[davidscott]

LOL!
I like the way they decided it was important that "BELT DRIVE" dominate the face of this unit!

Cant even tell if the cassette deck has Dolby though I doubt it or it would also be prominent on the face of the unit.

 

[TLS Guy]

Two questions that seem important to me:
Should I even try to order the said part from US? Meaning, when and where in chain does the voltage of the grid stop being important? Is there a point after which it's all the same or perhaps there's no such point? Can US parts be used for EU equipment?

And the other one; I took some time to read and think about all this stator business you've proposed and I must say I find the fact that it happenes every full circle contraindicative of what you're saying. Even if it's only one bad stator, it should make the stylus jump at least twice, right?

The basic problem is that this is a "gunshot" repair. So there is risk in all of those. However, you seem a careful fellow, and I have to assume you have excluded all mechanical issues by now.

If you could find someone to scope the tach then I think the situation would become clear. However the cost of this "shotgun" repair is modest, and chance of success above average.

That board does not contain the power supply, so it won't matter which country you source the part from.

Really at this point your options are, professional repair, "shotgun" repair, or junk it.

 

[killdozzer]

The basic problem is that this is a "gunshot" repair. So there is risk in all of those. However, you seem a careful fellow, and I have to assume you have excluded all mechanical issues by now.

If you could find someone to scope the tach then I think the situation would become clear. However the cost of this "shotgun" repair is modest, and chance of success above average.

That board does not contain the power supply, so it won't matter which country you source the part from.

Really at this point your options are, professional repair, "shotgun" repair, or junk it.

Heeeey, transmission line guy!! Some good news finally, it seems I found a guy who can repair the TT!!

I just got in touch with him and told him everything I did so far. He thinks it is rather meticulous testing I did. He also said it would probably cost a lot less than I thought. He said if it’s to do with stator it should be between 20 and 40$. He described the way he repairs these problems – he removes the chips from the board to avoid any risk and tests them. He also says it might be the one controlling the speed.

Also, if you’re interested, Technics doesn’t drag the levers for the automatic tone-arm return all the time, they hook up after you press stop or when the tone-arm makes the contact at the end of the inner groove. Just in case you want to have a more accurate info.

I’ll let everyone here know if this is indeed the problem just to help some other members having TT’s like this.

 

[TLS Guy]

Heeeey, transmission line guy!! Some good news finally, it seems I found a guy who can repair the TT!!

I just got in touch with him and told him everything I did so far. He thinks it is rather meticulous testing I did. He also said it would probably cost a lot less than I thought. He said if it’s to do with stator it should be between 20 and 40$. He described the way he repairs these problems – he removes the chips from the board to avoid any risk and tests them. He also says it might be the one controlling the speed.

Also, if you’re interested, Technics doesn’t drag the levers for the automatic tone-arm return all the time, they hook up after you press stop or when the tone-arm makes the contact at the end of the inner groove. Just in case you want to have a more accurate info.

I’ll let everyone here know if this is indeed the problem just to help some other members having TT’s like this.

Good news, let us know what he finds.

 

[killdozzer]

Putting an end to a long journey!!! I have very, very good news, but am ashamed just a tad at the same time.

The TT is in perfect working condition. It had no problems to begin with. I was simply dealt a bad hand and all of my testing records had a warp. So, no matter how many different scenarios I tried, I always got the cones pulsating. Different speakers, amps, records, TT in the room, out of the room, behind the speakers, below... It was my records. All of them had a warp.

The guy said that only by looking at strobe, he could see it's not the stator, chips or anything serious. He did open it in front of me (this morning for that matter) and tested the chips just to please me, nothing wrong.

he put a good record on (the one he could vouch for) and there was no pulsating of the cones:

This is me!!

I did buy some needed spare parts to justify the trip. I gave him a good bottle of wine. He didn't want money for the repair, he said the wine covers it (it's a good bottle). I paid anyway, I insisted (an hour of work as he specified 15$) and bought some parts to give him some business.

He said not to sweat with it, warped records are warped records, but otherwise the TT works like a charm as he said.

He did show me what I mentioned earlier, the arm really doesn't drag everything on the way; the stop mechanism hooks the arm only when you press stop or it reaches the end of record (at least in this model). He agreed you'd have a hard time making it quiet otherwise.

Thanks to everyone involved. If you ever decide to take your vacation in Croatia, give me shout, I'll try to help in any way I can.


Thanks again!