How much better do better speakers actually sound? Where's the breaking point of value/performance?

[Bucknekked]

My own experience is not too dissimilar. I am a Salk customer and fan by default, though. My original order was through Philharmonic Audio. Jim was building the cabinets for Dennis.
When Dennis fell ill and ultimately shuttered Philharmonic, my project was put on hold. Eventually, word came down that Dennis gave Jim the green light to reach out to the individual customers that Dennis had projects with in Jim's house. I had already been in contact with Jim, both as a potential customer and sorting through Dennis being Ill and how it might affect my project. Through this whole process, Jim was a champion, even logging into the Dennis-Fan-Club thread on that other site and giving some updates.
For me, Jim priced the completion of the Speakers fairly and I was able to continue the project.
Dennis Murphy is an Audio Hero to me because of his sheer mastery of making sound sound good! Jim earned his status as a hero for me because he stuck with a project that was assuredly a loss on his books, but the support for his longtime friend and a one of his friend's twit customers (me) was astounding.
I never asked him for anything in the process other than ways that might help realize the projects completion. I even suggested that I would pay for the finished cabinets and assembled parts plus instructions to complete myself!
At the end, the speakers were packed and scheduled to ship when I got an email saying that there was a concern about the test measurements and they were going to unpack and fix the crossovers. I offered to pay for the parts, even.
I never got that bill, but I did get the speakers. Jim's build of Dennis' Flagship the Philharmonic 3.

Ryanosaur
Your post answered a couple of nagging questions I had during the last year. I came up on a project where I wanted to get a pair of Dennis Murphy's entry level bookshelf speakers. I went to the site and asked him to contact me and set up a build. I got crickets ! Nothing. This must have been when he was out ill and unable to keep things going. I figured it was my fault and I was doing something wrong. I didn't even want to think that something bad happened to Dennis. Glad he has made arrangement with Jim Salk. And I still see him post here every now and again so I hope he is all fixed up and right as rain again.

Its also funny that if I were to put together another system, the speakers you chose , the Philharmonic 3, are what I would probably choose. They are less than Jim's traditional product line in that size speaker but still totally outstanding and encased in Jim's cabinets. I don't know where his price point is today for the Phil 3's, but where it was was pretty incredible. Do you love the result? How 'bout them cabinets?

 

[ryanosaur]

The "end game" idea is a great idea most people looking to upgrade ignore or don't consider.

+ infinty to this!
I was planning on saying something similar, but now just have to say: "YASSSSS!"

@MalVeauX :
I became a member here at AH because I liked the chill way members shared info. I had started researching last July and joined in September. What was I looking for, after not having owned decent audio gear in a while? Forever Speakers! I wanted to buy the best speakers I could allow myself to afford on a not too shabby budget. I had saved money for awhile and was ready to go when I started asking questions here. little by little I was introduced to names like Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend... Hell! I thought I had it figured out!
Regardless, once I did that audition with Dennis' local client, I emailed him right away and told him I was ordering.

It's been said, speakers like this aren't for everybody. Because they reproduce sound so accurately, there is a different quality to them. As a Musician, something Dennis is too, I was able to immediately hear how clean and true the audio reproduction was. It really was the closest thing to being "in the middle of it" again.

Whether you ultimately become a fan yourself, no worries. I said it pages back though: do find a way to hear something like this before you spend more money on any other speaker. Any person that loves sound should have the opportunity to choose for themselves, and Dennis' designs are easily among the best!

 

[MalVeauX]

+ infinty to this!
I was planning on saying something similar, but now just have to say: "YASSSSS!"

@MalVeauX :
I became a member here at AH because I liked the chill way members shared info. I had started researching last July and joined in September. What was I looking for, after not having owned decent audio gear in a while? Forever Speakers! I wanted to buy the best speakers I could allow myself to afford on a not too shabby budget. I had saved money for awhile and was ready to go when I started asking questions here. little by little I was introduced to names like Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend... Hell! I thought I had it figured out!
Regardless, once I did that audition with Dennis' local client, I emailed him right away and told him I was ordering.

It's been said, speakers like this aren't for everybody. Because they reproduce sound so accurately, there is a different quality to them. As a Musician, something Dennis is too, I was able to immediately hear how clean and true the audio reproduction was. It really was the closest thing to being "in the middle of it" again.

Whether you ultimately become a fan yourself, no worries. I said it pages back though: do find a way to hear something like this before you spend more money on any other speaker. Any person that loves sound should have the opportunity to choose for themselves, and Dennis' designs are easily among the best!

Thanks, that is certainly helpful. I like high fidelity so accurate reproduction is the name of the game and a speaker that produces it as it was produces is doing just that, minus any added color due to the design and tuning. I play piano and sax, but not in any professional means.

I often break in a session of critical listening with some cello by YoYoMa, where a boomy system is terrible sounding, but an articulate flat response system sounds a lot more like the instrument sounds. I enjoy that.

Very best,

 

[ryanosaur]

Ryanosaur
Your post answered a couple of nagging questions I had during the last year. I came up on a project where I wanted to get a pair of Dennis Murphy's entry level bookshelf speakers. I went to the site and asked him to contact me and set up a build. I got crickets ! Nothing. This must have been when he was out ill and unable to keep things going. I figured it was my fault and I was doing something wrong. I didn't even want to think that something bad happened to Dennis. Glad he has made arrangement with Jim Salk. And I still see him post here every now and again so I hope he is all fixed up and right as rain again.

Its also funny that if I were to put together another system, the speakers you chose , the Philharmonic 3, are what I would probably choose. They are less than Jim's traditional product line in that size speaker but still totally outstanding and encased in Jim's cabinets. I don't know where his price point is today for the Phil 3's, but where it was was pretty incredible. Do you love the result? How 'bout them cabinets?

Hi Buck!

Ya, I was really bummed when I heard he was sick. I don't know what happened, but he was under a lot of stress around the holidays. It pains me to have been a part of that time for him. I confirmed my orders for everything at the end of November last year.
My conversations with Jim led to an understanding that the 3s are the most complicated build they do. Considering the boost to the cost of the BMRs, I'm a little scared to think what he would charge to do the 3s today. I would hope that they can live on, but I don't think they will be a regular item on his menu. To say I am more than a little sad that this speaker might not be built again is an understatement. The price Dennis was charging was a crazy value for what this speaker represents.

More than anything, though, I am absolutely grateful and honored to have been able to put together a Philharmonic system as I did. Dennis' work is amazing and Jim's build with the 3s match in spades. I hope one day I get to meet Dennis... but if nothing else, I hope I might get to learn a little from him. Gift or skill... he has a knack with choosing drivers and building crossovers!
I'm going to go to the CAS next month in Oakland, so I should have an opportunity to meet Jim. I'm looking forward to this, because he will likely be traveling with the SS9.5s. It will be cool to hear those against my experience with the 3s. If only I could load the 3's into that room for a side by side!!! He'd need to make room for a new flagship.

Best,
R

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks, that is certainly helpful. I like high fidelity so accurate reproduction is the name of the game and a speaker that produces it as it was produces is doing just that, minus any added color due to the design and tuning. I play piano and sax, but not in any professional means.

I often break in a session of critical listening with some cello by YoYoMa, where a boomy system is terrible sounding, but an articulate flat response system sounds a lot more like the instrument sounds. I enjoy that.

Very best,

Very cool. I'm a saxophonist... in a past life, at least. I still have them though. Hope to play them again! (I laid them down for Knives and Houndstooth.) Dennis plays Viola (and Violin, I think). He was Asst Principle Violist in the Washington Philharmonic. This resonated with me. The man has ears! His speaker designs show this.

 

[MalVeauX]

Very cool. I'm a saxophonist... in a past life, at least. I still have them though. Hope to play them again! (I laid them down for Knives and Houndstooth.) Dennis plays Viola (and Violin, I think). He was Asst Principle Violist in the Washington Philharmonic. This resonated with me. The man has ears! His speaker designs show this.

That matters to me as well. I certainly have an easier time suspending my belief about things I'm not able to experience in person regarding this particular topic from someone who plays instruments and creates musical reproduction instruments, rather than someone that installed Kicker subs into every Civic they could find in the 90's. Hah!

Very best,

 

[lovinthehd]

Audio is one of those places where it can really pay off to choose carefully and for the long term. So many people, as was said, do incremental price point "upgrades" and that isn't going to work as well as saving up for what you will keep longer (and reselling stuff with the depreciation usually involved is a factor). Especially speakers and subs, which you can keep a lot longer than trying to keep up with the jones on the associated media/electronics.

 

[Ponzio]

MalVeauX

I wouldn't worry too much about getting matching surround speakers, since the amount of signal used/sent there (15% ?) is inconsequential to the overall sound. I would concentrate on the LCR (left-center-right speakers) in the beginning and later on, after you've saved some more funds, get two sub-woofers to open up the sound-stage.

I'm on board with a lot of the folks here in recommending the Salk brand. I have a pair of Salk SongTower QWT's with a matching center and two SVS SB-2000 subs. My preferences are more geared to music, that's why I purchased the sealed subs. If you're more interested in home theater, I would go with the ported SVS PB-2000 model.

If everything must be new for you, you're looking at roughly $3,700 US dollars. I have found that patience is your best friend in the long run the hard way. I must've gone thru 5 different set of speakers before finally settling on my current setup the last five years. Start off with just a great LCR setup ($2,500) and then get the sub-woofers ($1,200) and surrounds ($600) later on when your budget allows and you'll end up with a really fantastic sound system that will give you years of enjoyment.

Good luck with whatever speakers you choose and enjoy the hobby, that's what it's all about.

 

[MalVeauX]

Audio is one of those places where it can really pay off to choose carefully and for the long term. So many people, as was said, do incremental price point "upgrades" and that isn't going to work as well as saving up for what you will keep longer (and reselling stuff with the depreciation usually involved is a factor). Especially speakers and subs, which you can keep a lot longer than trying to keep up with the jones on the associated media/electronics.

I agree, I definitely do not want to do the tier creep. I have entry. I don't want more entry. I'd rather skip to end-game within a budget, obviously not end-game for everyone, but end-game for me most likely. As the kids get older I won't have more money laying around as it is, so I'd really like it if these make it through all that at least. I don't mind trading up electronics, they're small and easy to ship and relatively inexpensive. Speakers though, good ones, I don't want to go through the selling process. I've done it one time for an entire arrangement of a 5.1 system with a sub and receiver all included to a friend of a friend and it was the sort of experience I don't want to experience again coordinating all that.

MalVeauX

I wouldn't worry too much about getting matching surround speakers, since the amount of signal used/sent there (15% ?) is inconsequential to the overall sound. I would concentrate on the LCR (left-center-right speakers) in the beginning and later on, after you've saved some more funds, get two sub-woofers to open up the sound-stage.

I'm on board with a lot of the folks here in recommending the Salk brand. I have a pair of Salk SongTower QWT's with a matching center and two SVS SB-2000 subs. My preferences are more geared to music, that's why I purchased the sealed subs. If you're more interested in home theater, I would go with the ported SVS PB-2000 model.

If everything must be new for you, you're looking at roughly $3,700 US dollars. I have found that patience is your best friend in the long run the hard way. I must've gone thru 5 different set of speakers before finally settling on my current setup the last five years. Start off with just a great LCR setup ($2,500) and then get the sub-woofers ($1,200) and surrounds ($600) later on when your budget allows and you'll end up with a really fantastic sound system that will give you years of enjoyment.

Good luck with whatever speakers you choose and enjoy the hobby, that's what it's all about.

Thanks, I am in agreement that there's no point in worrying about the surrounds. I also realize I don't need large surrounds by any means either, so it shouldn't be an issue to find attractive but inconspicuous surrounds. It's quite interesting how many Salk owners there are around here. That says a lot about them!

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

So, how about a new question to help steer things based on the context and information everyone has provided so far...

What are some domestic (USA) made speakers that I'm not aware of? Not to uniquely limit it to the USA, but at the same time, being realistic, something custom from another country would likely be entirely unaffordable in every sense for me (well beyond $3k+ I imagine).

I'm sure there has to be other potential speaker makers around that are not huge corporations that are just shipping stuff from overseas (not that anything is wrong with that). Learning about Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy has been very intriguing. It makes me wonder about other individual speaker makers out there that sell their work? Prior to this thread, I have never seen an advertisement or anything for Stalk Sound, and without very specific niche pockets on the web have I even seen the name Stalk mentioned outside of very specific threads on various websites. So naturally I'm curious what other potential gems are sitting out there crowded out by the advertisements?

It's easy to browse websites, like Audioholics, but a lot of the information and ads are centered on what looks to be fairly mass produced commercial products. I don't know enough about many of them to know if that's true or not. I may be totally wrong with that, so I'm looking for education there. For frame of reference, looking at something like an ad or review for some SVS speakers, RBH or Martin Logans is not the same as literally custom made to order Salks. So I'm curious, what else have I totally overlooked?

Currently reviewing the Salk SongBird, SongTower, WoW1, BMR Monitors or Ellis 1801's from Salk Sound. Just trying to stay in that $3k range. The craftsmanship is top notch, I really like wood, and if they're as neutral and good as everyone says, then they're worth exploring. But, what else fits into that $3k category that are also netural and very good and available in the USA that I don't know of?

Thank you all!

Very best,

 

[shadyJ]

Some speakers that don't get enough love is the Paradigm Premier series. This is a very neutral speaker series with an outstanding center channel speaker. I have compared these directly to other highly regarded neutral speakers and could hardly detect a difference. If people knew how good these were, they would be a lot more popular.

 

[Ponzio]

Ascend Acoustics, KEF have good reputations. Too many to list. Plus there is your tonal preferences. I'd hit the brick & mortar shops first to get an idea of what you prefer; neutral, higher frequencies, bass heavy. Also keep in mind the room size.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ascend is in the US, Kef isn't nor is Paradigm (altho Canada, and if Canada is good try PSB also). Selah Audio might be another here to look into. If you want to stretch to Canada Funk does some awesome stuff, particularly subs.

I'd look into JTR and Seaton for US stuff, too, both subs and speakers.

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks, that's helpful information; both about the SVS & Salks. I'm interested in both, but honestly, if something like a Salk speaker is truly an end-game experience, I'd rather buy once than twice and skip the in-between. It's certainly not out of the question. I will have to look into finding someone local for an audition, if nothing else, that's valuable experience even if I don't go that direction.

If you all don't mind sharing, how long was the waiting time? I don't mind waiting times for quality.

Very best,

I like this way of thinking of skipping the in between in a lot of purchases.

The wait time would have to be dialed in once you're job is in the production portal, but mine took 6 mos from start to delivery. My order hit shortly after the Song3A debut and I think there was surge of orders...your time line might not be the same.

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks alot! That was really helpful, I didn't understand what all those things meant and how they relate to sound.

Haha, yea, I've been researching Salk since January. I ordered the Song 3 with a custom open back midrange design from his other speakers. I'm intrigued how the open back midrange will sound! I ordered them May 2nd. So I've been checking his website alot while I wait for my speakers to be built. So far only the cabinets have been assembled. It's going to be a long wait!

I also found through Jim Salk a person that owned the Song 3A in my area and auditioned them in their home, we had a great time too! It really helped me get a feel for the speakers with my own music. For me the Accutron was too detailed and chiseled sounding, and the Song 3 was cheaper too, and he said it's less detailed, so I went with those.

Congrats!

The 3A is more sensitive to your source music for sure...while the listener is rewarded more with good recordings, bad recordings are exposed moreso as well.

 

[snakeeyes]

Think the title of this thread is on the right track. There is a lot to experience short of “endgame”. Do you really require museum art piece speaker finishes? LOL

 

[Pogre]

I was having this conversation with a friend just the other day. There's definitely a sweet spot for cost/performance in the audio world. I think once you start getting into 5 digit numbers the gains become a lot more incremental.

 

[Pogre]

Might want to check out SVS Ultra series, both tower and bookshelf. They do free in-home trials, too. Many satisfied customers of both from what I've read.

The JBL Studio 590s I have and like a lot, particularly if you can get them on the occasional sale price of $500 each delivered....

Yes! I love my Ultras. Very good cost/performance ratio.

 

[2channel lover]

Yes! I love my Ultras. Very good cost/performance ratio.

How have you been sir?

 

[Bucknekked]

Yes! I love my Ultras. Very good cost/performance ratio.

Your Ultras sounded awesome when I listened to them last. I can imagine with the tweaking you've done since, they are even better. Good to see you on the forum. I haven't posted much lately so its great to cross paths again