Current competition v. Sunfire HRS-12

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm going to order today. I woke up this morning with a persistent feeling that my confirmation bias is clouding my judgement.

The issues: x2 pc2000's would be a better solution for my room. The pc4000 is too frickin big. X2 pc4000's will be very large physical objects in the room.

The room is about 3k ft^2, with large openings on 2 sides, and a bedroom off of it. Can any of you talk me off the ledge?

Sorry. Not talking you down. Lol.

2, pc2k’s just might be the ticket. Yep. 123...GO!!!

 

[sven1olaf]

Sorry. Not talking you down. Lol.

2, pc2k’s just might be the ticket. Yep. 123...GO!!!

Ha!

I talked to three different av companies today. I learned that:

1. My room sucks (already knew that, that's why I'm taking to the pros)

2. The built in is severely width limiting (same as above)

3. My current system is tuned very well (each guy mentioned this)

4. Paradigm and b&w are the primary candidates for Surrounds (dipoles most likely, but maybe in walls)

5. The idea of using dipoles shocks people until they are in the room that needs them

5. The existing in ceilings, though poor quality and installed in horribly misguided locations for their intended use, may function well as Atmos additions

6. One company won't do much without also selling a control4 remote with it (tbh I kinda need one anyway)

7. Anthem mrx720 is the current goto AVR

8. Everybody loves SVS subs!

9. Creative solutions are rare and hard to come by

I should have the quotes by Friday. I'm really looking forward to seeing what these guys put together.

Then I'll probably just steal all the best ideas, and hire my favorite to get it done.

I might have to pump the brakes and get a carpenter in here to properly address this built in for me. Can't push right because of the bathroom, but might be able to remove the whole thing, push left into the understair closet, and create something simple, wider, and more favorable to a front sound field.

Fun times.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ha!

I talked to three different av companies today. I learned that:

1. My room sucks (already knew that, that's why I'm taking to the pros)

2. The built in is severely width limiting (same as above)

3. My current system is tuned very well (each guy mentioned this)

4. Paradigm and b&w are the primary candidates for Surrounds (dipoles most likely, but maybe in walls)

5. The idea of using dipoles shocks people until they are in the room that needs them

5. The existing in ceilings, though poor quality and installed in horribly misguided locations for their intended use, may function well as Atmos additions

6. One company won't do much without also selling a control4 remote with it (tbh I kinda need one anyway)

7. Anthem mrx720 is the current goto AVR

8. Everybody loves SVS subs!

9. Creative solutions are rare and hard to come by

I should have the quotes by Friday. I'm really looking forward to seeing what these guys put together.

Then I'll probably just steal all the best ideas, and hire my favorite to get it done.

I might have to pump the brakes and get a carpenter in here to properly address this built in for me. Can't push right because of the bathroom, but might be able to remove the whole thing, push left into the understair closet, and create something simple, wider, and more favorable to a front sound field.

Fun times.

I was wondering what the closet was. If that could go away, it might be possible to open that whole thing up, just as you mentioned, and open up the front end. Hmmm... One thing about that is the ceiling speakers might have to move over if you’re going after atmos AND removing the closet. Hard to tell from pics.
IMO, it would be worth going to a pair of 4k’s over the 2k’s, but iirc you said they wouldn’t fit?

1. All rooms suck. Some suck more!
2. Agreed. Should be destroyed.
3. Nice!
4. Curious, why?
5. I think that’s definitely worth exploring. Imo, some atmos is better than none.
6. Good choice.
7. Seems like for installers maybe. IMO the go-to AVRs are the denon x4400/4500, or Marantz SR60xx/70xx. Yamaha gets a lot of recommendations but personally I have issues with them. None are quality related.
8. Agreed again!
9. Depends on where you look, or how big your imagination is. Kind of agree though.



If they wouldn’t be so far in the walkway, I might consider mounting the mains here...

I’m sure there would be studs for wall mounts. Waf might be low lol. However, if the rest of the gear and tv slid forward accordingly, then the speakers wouldn’t stick out as far, since everything would be in the same plane. That’s maybe a little creative? Lol

 

[sven1olaf]

Ok, gonna revive this thread because my next phase will be das lowenbümm related (subs )

Above is the current setup in the room.

The sunfires up front work well, but I need to tweak their mlp distance just a tad still.

The bass seems to pile up very near the subs and my mlp is in a deadzone. It's an odd sensation to hear solid bass in front of you that seems to die as it hits you. (I've never had this in this room before, or maybe I just didn't know what to look for
So, less directionality and more extension can never hurt... right?

Are there any subs you guys are familiar with that would blend well with either 1 or both of the hrs-12's? If not, I have a hard time just flat out eliminating them (mostly cause $$$, but also because they work well for all but very loud music and/or loud, modern movie soundtracks ).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ok, gonna revive this thread because my next phase will be das lowenbümm related (subs )

Above is the current setup in the room.

The sunfires up front work well, but I need to tweak their mlp distance just a tad still.

The bass seems to pile up very near the subs and my mlp is in a deadzone. It's an odd sensation to hear solid bass in front of you that seems to die as it hits you. (I've never had this in this room before, or maybe I just didn't know what to look for
So, less directionality and more extension can never hurt... right?

Are there any subs you guys are familiar with that would blend well with either 1 or both of the hrs-12's? If not, I have a hard time just flat out eliminating them (mostly cause $$$, but also because they work well for all but very loud music and/or loud, modern movie soundtracks ).

Well, I am a fan of ported subwoofers, so for ME, I would look at repurposing the sunfires in a different room. Like the bedroom, where to IMO they’ll be most effective. Then start over with the subs I really wanted, whatever those may be. IMO, something that would match up with the hrs12 would fall between the SB2k and sb3k. Integrating one of those two with the sunfires would probably not be super hard, but it’s not plop and play. And while there is merit to smoothing the response, it can take 4 sealed subs to equal the output of a comparable ported one. So, even with a 4 hrs/SB2/3k combo, the pb4000, would probably still be more powerful around say 20-30hz, or at least close. Then you still have 4 subs to place in the room. So there’s more of a balancing act
For me, a pair of PC4k’s would probably work out. Then you add Rythmik, HSU, monolith etc, and the waters get even muddier, as far as value is concerned.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The sunfires up front work well, but I need to tweak their mlp distance just a tad still.

So the issue seems more like placement, instead of output?

1. I don't know if you mentioned moving them around the room - put 1 sub in front and 1 back of room?

2. If #1 doesn't work, maybe try a 3rd subwoofer (any sub)--- 2 subs in front + 1 sub in back of the room to see if it would smooth out the bass?

Does Best Buy have any subs that you could try out to see if a 3rd sub in the back would fix the issue?

 

[sven1olaf]

So the issue seems more like placement, instead of output?

1. I don't know if you mentioned moving them around the room - put 1 sub in front and 1 back of room?

2. If #1 doesn't work, maybe try a 3rd subwoofer (any sub)--- 2 subs in front + 1 sub in back of the room to see if it would smooth out the bass?

Does Best Buy have any subs that you could try out to see if a 3rd sub in the back would fix the issue?

Getting a 3rd to test is a good idea!

The red sub pretty much stays where it is. But I've moved the blue one all over. The back right corner is nice but the window rattles like crazy from it. I tried finding the source, but it seems like it's the entire window frame rattling.

The location behind the couch is promising, but I couldn't get it dialed in. With the new Audyssey I'll experiment more this week. I'm leaning toward getting a minidsp for EQ. But will see what I can do without it first.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

When you love the blue sub, are you making changes to the phase? Are you level matching it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Getting a 3rd to test is a good idea!

The red sub pretty much stays where it is. But I've moved the blue one all over. The back right corner is nice but the window rattles like crazy from it. I tried finding the source, but it seems like it's the entire window frame rattling.

The location behind the couch is promising, but I couldn't get it dialed in. With the new Audyssey I'll experiment more this week. I'm leaning toward getting a minidsp for EQ. But will see what I can do without it first.

Maybe a 3rd sub could go by the right corner, but at reduced volume to avoid the windows from rattling.

The optimal placements, the optimal number of subs, the optimal volume for each sub (to avoid window rattling).

Definitely some possibilities.

 

[sven1olaf]

When you love the blue sub, are you making changes to the phase? Are you level matching it?

Yes to both, but with the old aud.

I'll try position 2, with a full re-cal, someone this week. I was off work all week last week, so I'm getting crushed this week.

 

[sven1olaf]

I'm going to get two svs pb3k's and see how those do in here.

Any advice on placement?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm going to get two svs pb3k's and see how those do in here.

Any advice on placement?

What!!! I thought you were waiting?

 

[sven1olaf]

Who can wait?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Who can wait?

Lol.

Good for you brother. I’ll try and look at your pics for placement ideas. Experimenting will be key.

Btw, meant to tell you I love the Lake Superior on the wall.

 

[sven1olaf]

Good eye Bill!

It's an old driftwood frame I had made, and the picture is of all the shipwrecks in the lake. Scary times back in the day.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Good eye Bill!

It's an old driftwood frame I had made, and the picture is of all the shipwrecks in the lake. Scary times back in the day.

Wow, that sounds beautiful. I’d be interested in a picture of it if you “woodent” mind lol.(pm if ya want) I’ve spent a great deal of time up there(family). Got to skipper a 40’ sailboat up and down the north shore once, over a couple days. That was pretty epic.
It’s a special area.

 

[sven1olaf]

Do any of you have any feedback on what separates the rythmic f18 (or similar) from the SVS line (sb3000, pb3000, sb4000).

Size is a concern, but so is home theater oomph and musical accuracy.

The software and app that SVS has right now seems very convenient and helpful. But is it enough to combat the 18" driver of the f18?

I'll be going dual for sure, so that's why I am checking in on the lower tiers from each OEM.

I forgot to add in HSU. I am not very familiar at all with their offerings, but will check out the site tonight.

Thanks

 

[ryanosaur]

Any advice on placement?

I would always recommend the subwoofer crawl! its crude, but works great. My instict is one behind the couch (opposite position 2), and the other to the left side of the room. I've had some issues in my room with corner loading, but if you do the crawl, you should be able to identify pretty easily if the back left corner (position 4) would get boomy/muddy.
You're in good hands, Sven!

Sup, Bill!!! Hope all is well!

Oh, Sven... your last post... I think its generally accepted that you might get a better low end extension with the SVS, and a little better Mid-Bass with the Hsu's... but with all of these subs, you kind of end up splitting hairs. In general, you might have more bang for the buck with HSU, and they are no slouch by all reports. But unless you are going to drive to and from Anaheim, there isn't an easy way to audition those in your home. SVS might be the ticket. Regardless, most of these don't disappoint.
Cheers!

 

[sven1olaf]

Thanks for the info.

Yeah, the software and convenience of the svs offerings is where I'm heavily leaning. Dual SB3k's should help fill out the bottom end...and if I want more I'll do the 1 year upgrade to the pb3k's.

The performance of the 3k line seems very close to the 4k line, near infinite headroom the biggest difference.

I'm slightly confused about your placement recommendation but will be experimenting later today.

 

[ryanosaur]

Some good stuff to read about is the Geddes approach to placing multiple subs. His technique can be very involved, but I've found it to be advantageous even without the measurements. (I'm still working on getting REW up and running... very soon though!)
His primary goal is to activate as many room modes as possible by strategic, asymmetrical placement of multiple LF sources. (He includes full range towers in that category, too.) I used the Crawl to identify places in my room where the subs sounded their best, and while placing them I was mindful to also keep the distances different from each sub to each speaker, making certain to not create any additional standing waves.
Your room layout with the sub positions marked on the is great, but I would urge you to keep your mind open to more placement locations!
Position 1 is a clever choice and would be great for a near-field placement. Position 2 starts to get into the corner a bit. (I don't disagree with cornerloading as a whole, only if its sounds bad) I would urge you to consider Position 2.5 which is the opposite side of that little nook and just around the corner from Position 3, but not pressed into the corner. It gives you a little more leeway perhaps in moving around the room and is more centered behind your LP while not being centered in the room. Position 3 on the other hand gets much closer into the center of the width of the room and seems more likely to create standing waves near or at you LP because the waves will be reflecting back at there source from all directions, right near the LP. Position 4 should include the entire walls from just left of Position3 into the corner, and then all the way up along that left wall. The crawl will reveal at least one spot, and maybe a whole stretch where the bass will be clean along that wall, I'm almost certain of it! I wouldn't rule out Position 5 since your mains only go to 50Hz, but front walls aren't always the best place (like corners) to put a sub.

I hope that makes more sense!
If you decide to do the crawl, you can do it with one of your current subs... you don't have to wait. Hopefully tou can identify and mark 3-5 locations where the sound is clean and punchy. When I did mine, I found some good spots, but the 2 usable corners in my room were muddy and boomy, and I had a dead spot, too.
Cheers!