Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[DigitalDawn]

If you ever have any intention of buying a set of 4 ohm speakers I would stay away from the A1080. It's not designed to power more than (2) 4 ohm speakers.

 

[PENG]

I'm not so certain about that. In 2 channel stereo, maybe.

But these units have different amplifiers, pre-amp components, different power supplies, different build layouts, and different brands/levels of DACs, different DSPs, etc. It's not crazy to think these brands would sound different.

Agreed, it is not crazy......., but if we can also agree that humans are unable to hear the difference between 0.05 and 0.08% THD, IMD, damping factors or 50 to 300, FR of +/- 0.1 dB 20-20,000 Hz, spl, then it is not logical to think that just because different amps have different power supplies, layouts, dacs, different dsps would have to sound different, when the manufacturers typically claimed their amps were designed to just amplify, with no intentional sound signature as suggested by the specs and sometimes supported by bench test results. As an example, how many people can hear a 25,000 Hz pure tone, let alone differences between it being played by different amps?

I was just asking if anyone had observed differences.

You know the answer will be affirmative, "anyone" is the key word. Of course "someone" had, must have.. and you stated some of the reasons yourself.

Some owners might have done this in their own homes, testing out different equipment. I can say that my current Yahama RXA1080 has a different sound than the older Pioneer Elite I had, in the same room. It is more detailed and has a better sound stage, though it is not dramatically different. (These were both in 2 channel mode, on the "Direct" settings)

Assuming you did all those things like level matched, pure direct, same room, speakers, same everything and further assuming you one sounded better as you described, then it will be tough for people to choose if based on sound quality only, how would one know which brand would sound best?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm not so certain about that. In 2 channel stereo, maybe.

But these units have different amplifiers, pre-amp components, different power supplies, different build layouts, and different brands/levels of DACs, different DSPs, etc. It's not crazy to think these brands would sound different.

I was just asking if anyone had observed differences.

To truly know... you'd have to perform a controlled test: Use the same room, same speakers, same media... but swap receivers in and out, to do an A/B comparison.

Some owners might have done this in their own homes, testing out different equipment. I can say that my current Yahama RXA1080 has a different sound than the older Pioneer Elite I had, in the same room. It is more detailed and has a better sound stage, though it is not dramatically different.

(These were both in 2 channel mode, on the "Direct" settings)

I do agree that it’s no crazy. But since the main goal of modern gear is supposedly to be as transparent as possible, my observation has been that when you remove the eq system from the equation, the differences become so minute that by the time I switch AVR’s and level match and sit and listen, I don’t care.

I have done just what you suggested. With Yamaha pioneer Onkyo and Marantz, in my room with the same speakers that I’ve owned since around 2001. In my room and experiences here, what I have noticed is that room EQ makes waaaaaaaayy more difference than anything(same speakers of course). The other thing I noticed was power. The pioneer and Onkyo were rated at 125x7 and 135x7. On paper you shouldn’t e able to notice an differences here , but the Onkyo(bench tested to stay at around 115w acd by home theater magazine iirc) NEVER ran out of power. I think I could actually weld with it lol! The pioneer with only 10wpc less, started to compress when getting closer to reference(MV-0). Dynamics kept getting squished the more volume added. In fact MV only reached about -12 or -10 before becoming nasty.(to mine and fellow testers ears). That’s why I believe in 3rd party bench tests. FWIW, I actually liked what mcacc did in my room, and it works great for my bedroom 5.1 system. Full detailed sound, but just can’t deliver at higher volumes. I also think mcacc does better with a single sub vs multiples.
I use a Yamaha pro amp for my mains and my current Marantz has no problem driving the other 9 speakers in the system. Fwiw, subjectively I felt when I added the Yamaha amp, I heard slightly better treble presence and control over my mains in general. Admittedly that could’ve easily been expectation bias, or confirmation bias too.

 

[highfigh]

Does anyone actually use those DSP modes? My Integra had a ton of them. I believe my B&K Ref 20 had a few too. Never used them.

Having worked for Sony, I can believe they're as, or more, reliable than anything out there. Back in the day MEI/Panasonic ruled with their reliability. Sat through too many meetings with them... This is also one reason I shy from smaller brands. Running volume keeps you on your toes and allows you to get to the ppm levels. The only downside is a "small" reliability problem equates to lots of units. And being in the information age... Whereas, the smaller player can chalk it up to a one-off and maintain there legion of followers.

Where did you work for Sony and in what years?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not so certain about that. In 2 channel stereo, maybe.

But these units have different amplifiers, pre-amp components, different power supplies, different build layouts, and different brands/levels of DACs, different DSPs, etc. It's not crazy to think these brands would sound different.

I was just asking if anyone had observed differences.

To truly know... you'd have to perform a controlled test: Use the same room, same speakers, same media... but swap receivers in and out, to do an A/B comparison.

Some owners might have done this in their own homes, testing out different equipment. I can say that my current Yahama RXA1080 has a different sound than the older Pioneer Elite I had, in the same room. It is more detailed and has a better sound stage, though it is not dramatically different.

(These were both in 2 channel mode, on the "Direct" settings)

I've swapped several different brands/models of avrs using same room/speaker setups and feel the differences among them are primarily in their dsp/req differences (and amp capabilities to an extent). Hard to to do a valid level matched quick switching A/B test unless you have some fancy switch gear, tho. By the time I've hooked everything back up and setup the speakers I certainly don't think my sonic memory is a whole lot of use. Do I notice differences....yes, but after a short time those generally disappear and I've even forgotten which unit is currently in use in a particular room. I run three avrs now in regularly used setups, one older one in a spare setup I don't use very often (two several year old Denons and an Onkyo and a pre-hdmi Sony). I've even replaced 2ch gear with the avrs. The amp/avr is the least of my worries when I make these changes, the most important remain the speakers/room IMO. Detail and sound stage aren't descriptors I'd use except for speakers and room, not a difference among any of my electronics. I discard almost all subjective opinions about gear, particularly for electronics....for subjective comments I just tend to look for some consensus from various owners/users (not guys who stopped by a stereo store for a casual audition) for speakers I might want to buy/check out, tho. YMMV.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you ever have any intention of buying a set of 4 ohm speakers I would stay away from the A1080. It's not designed to power more than (2) 4 ohm speakers.

You think the engineers at one of the biggest companies in the world designed the A1080 (which is probably among their best selling AVR) to be able to power only a pair of 4 ohm speakers?

What is your rationale?

 

[Trell]

You think the engineers at one of the biggest companies in the world designed the A1080 (which is probably among their best selling AVR) to be able to power only a pair of 4 ohm speakers?

What is your rationale?

I was a bit curious as well, and this appears to be the case according to User Manual RX-A1080 page 23:

Under its default settings, the unit is configured for 8-ohm speakers. When using a 6-ohm speaker for any channel, set the speaker impedance to “6 Ω MIN”. In this case, you can also use 4-ohm speakers as the front speakers.​

That said, it does not explicitly warn about using more 4-ohm speakers.

Edit: The user manual for A2080/A3080 has the same wording.

 

[Phase 2]

You think the engineers at one of the biggest companies in the world designed the A1080 (which is probably among their best selling AVR) to be able to power only a pair of 4 ohm speakers?

What is your rationale?

I don't believe that's actually true, Yamaha has never stated their AVR'S can't or shouldn't be used with 4 Ohm rated speakers. Didn't Gene test out the A860 a year ago? He did find that unit was a lil under powered for a Yamaha advantage unit. If I remember correctly he Gene even said not to switch to 6 Ohms, to just leave it set to 8 Ohms even if your speakers are rated at 4 Ohms. Maybe (PENG) will chime in give us his thoughts on this. I can say My Son has the A1050 drivering LSi-15's Center, and LSiFX surrounds All 4 Ohm rated speakers never has his AVR tripped off. And he runs it at -0 to +3 a Lot! He's a heavy metal guy!!

 

[lovinthehd]

I was a bit curious as well, and this appears to be the case according to User Manual RX-A1080 page 23:

Under its default settings, the unit is configured for 8-ohm speakers. When using a 6-ohm speaker for any channel, set the speaker impedance to “6 Ω MIN”. In this case, you can also use 4-ohm speakers as the front speakers.​

That said, it does not explicitly warn about using more 4-ohm speakers.

Edit: The user manual for A2080/A3080 has the same wording.

I think that similar language is fairly common among the various avrs as regards the impedance switch....

 

[Trell]

I think that similar language is fairly common among the various avrs as regards the impedance switch....

The manual for my Denon AVR-X4200W (2015 model) just says to set the impedance to 4-ohm if any connected speaker is 4-ohm, though, so Yamaha is just trying to cover all the bases? I've got 4-ohm speakers but have not touched the dreaded impedance switch

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I don't believe that's actually true, Yamaha has never stated their AVR'S can't or shouldn't be used with 4 Ohm rated speakers. Didn't Gene test out the A870 a year ago? He did find that unit was a lil under powered for a Yamaha advantage unit. If I remember correctly he Gene even said not to switch to 6 Ohms, to just leave it set to 8 Ohms even if your speakers are rated at 4 Ohms. Maybe (PENG) will chime in give us his thoughts on this. I can say My Son has the A1050 drivering LSi-15's Center, and LSiFX surrounds All 4 Ohm rated speakers never has his AVR tripped off. And he runs it at -0 to +3 a Lot! He's a heavy metal guy!!

Iirc it(or one that’s closely related to it) had very poor pre amp voltage too.

 

[lovinthehd]

The manual for my Denon AVR-X4200W (2015 model) just says to set the impedance to 4-ohm if any connected speaker is 4-ohm, though, so Yamaha is just trying to cover all the bases? I've got 4-ohm speakers but have not touched the dreaded impedance switch

Close enough Yamahas were often thought to be fine with 4 ohm speakers even without specific ratings, but that was a few years ago and there was the disappointing AH testing of one more recent model....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't believe that's actually true, Yamaha has never stated their AVR'S can't or shouldn't be used with 4 Ohm rated speakers. Didn't Gene test out the A870 a year ago? He did find that unit was a lil under powered for a Yamaha advantage unit. If I remember correctly he Gene even said not to switch to 6 Ohms, to just leave it set to 8 Ohms even if your speakers are rated at 4 Ohms. Maybe (PENG) will chime in give us his thoughts on this. I can say My Son has the A1050 drivering LSi-15's Center, and LSiFX surrounds All 4 Ohm rated speakers never has his AVR tripped off. And he runs it at -0 to +3 a Lot! He's a heavy metal guy!!

One thing many of us have seen is that many people exaggerate.

If we were born yesterday, we would think all the Yamaha AVR out there (series 1000 and below) would blow up because so many speakers (even cheap ones) dip down to 4 ohms and below 4 ohms.

Also keep in mind many things measured in the lab don’t represent the real world. The All-Channels-Driven test is one example.

When Gene torture-tested the Yamaha MX-A5000 amp for 7Ch Driven, it went into protection mode. Many inexperienced people would interpret the result as “Don’t connect more than five speakers to the Yamaha MX-A5000 amps”.

But Gene, thousands of people, and I have connected more than 5 speakers (many people connect 11 speakers, I connect 9 speakers) to this amp in a large room playing loud sound.

Many people have connected 7 speakers (that dip down 4 ohms) to the Yamaha A1080 without any kind of issues.

That’s why people come here to learn the real stuff. We set them straight.

 

[DigitalDawn]

I had a potential client who told me he was concerned about this so I read the A1080 manual and it was the first time in a long while I had seen that ohms warning. So, I called Yamaha tech support and talked to a really knowledgeable rep. He told me that AVR was not designed to handle more than two 4 ohm loads period. He was adamant about it.

Having worked with so many brands including Denon, Marantz, ATI, Emotiva, Outlaw etc. that are mostly ohms agnostic, this was a first for me.

 

[Phase 2]

Don't know if I would take a Reps word. Last time a Rep got on the phone with me from a very reputable speaker company. He's advice was the solder loose speaker connectors to the drivers.

 

[PENG]

I don't believe that's actually true, Yamaha has never stated their AVR'S can't or shouldn't be used with 4 Ohm rated speakers. Didn't Gene test out the A870 a year ago? He did find that unit was a lil under powered for a Yamaha advantage unit. If I remember correctly he Gene even said not to switch to 6 Ohms, to just leave it set to 8 Ohms even if your speakers are rated at 4 Ohms. Maybe (PENG) will chime in give us his thoughts on this. I can say My Son has the A1050 drivering LSi-15's Center, and LSiFX surrounds All 4 Ohm rated speakers never has his AVR tripped off. And he runs it at -0 to +3 a Lot! He's a heavy metal guy!!

Almost any AVR can power more than one pair of 4 ohm speakers as long as you don't crank the volume to the point the unit would shutdown on overcurrent or thermal overload. However, it is possible that some units may have protection that includes some forms of impedance sensing feature by design such that the unit would shutdown based on average impedance (by tracking voltage and current) below a predetermined value and duration.

Assuming the AVR does not have this kind of protection feature, then any unit that is rated say 100 WPC into 8 ohm, can sustain 50 WPC into 4 ohm. So if you take for example something like the RX-A1080, the following should apply:

8 ohm rating according the their website: 110 W, 2 channel driven, so called continuous (not literally).
4 ohm rating in theory based on the same current: 55 W, 2 channel driven, continuous

This is purely based on circuit theory, in practice bench tests by Audioholics.com, soundandvision.com, avtech, homechinemachoice.om, audiovision.de, audiosciencereview.com typically show much higher output in their 4 ohm two channel driven (even 5 channel driven in some cases) tests.

The issue is, AVR specs typically do not include power output ratings for more than two channel driven. For Denon/Marantz, you can probably expect their 5 channel driven output equals about 70% of their two channel outputs. Yamaha seems to have more aggressive protection features so their 5 channel driven output will likely be lower, or even much lower, but their short term dynamic power output (IHF) will likely be higher. NAD is also big on the dynamic output thing.

So again, it depends...

 

[Phase 2]

PENG, that includes all AVR'S? Denon, Onkyo are famous for saying 4 Ohm stable on all channels. Is that just a marketing ploy? But I get the fact about AVR'S limited power supply and design. I find it hard to believe Yamaha's newest Flagship units wouldn't drive a full set 5.1 or 5.2.4 at reference levels for movie at least. My Son has the Yamaha a1050 before he paired his EMOTIVA XPA 2 back in his rack that A1050 had no problem at all driving before 4 Ohm load speakers in a 7.2 setup. If the case of Yamaha being a little overprotective of their units i can understand the why they would recommend only 4 Ohms minimum just on the front L/R. If that's the case, what about the LCR? Or like I'm sure your about to tell me, Mike just get yourself a 7 channel amp and be done with all this nonsense..lol..just picking at ya a bit on the last part PENG.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Almost any AVR can power more than one pair of 4 ohm speakers as long as you don't crank the volume to the point the unit would shutdown on overcurrent or thermal overload. However, it is possible that some units may have protection that includes some forms of impedance sensing feature by design such that the unit would shutdown based on average impedance (by tracking voltage and current) below a predetermined value and duration.

Assuming the AVR does not have this kind of protection feature, then any unit that is rated say 100 WPC into 8 ohm, can sustain 50 WPC into 4 ohm. So if you take for example something like the RX-A1080, the following should apply:

8 ohm rating according the their website: 110 W, 2 channel driven, so called continuous (not literally).
4 ohm rating in theory based on the same current: 55 W, 2 channel driven, continuous

This is purely based on circuit theory, in practice bench tests by Audioholics.com, soundandvision.com, avtech, homechinemachoice.om, audiovision.de, audiosciencereview.com typically show much higher output in their 4 ohm two channel driven (even 5 channel driven in some cases) tests.

The issue is, AVR specs typically do not include power output ratings for more than two channel driven. For Denon/Marantz, you can probably expect their 5 channel driven output equals about 70% of their two channel outputs. Yamaha seems to have more aggressive protection features so their 5 channel driven output will likely be lower, or even much lower, but their short term dynamic power output (IHF) will likely be higher. NAD is also big on the dynamic output thing.

So again, it depends...

Yeah. I’ve own $500 50WPC AVR’s that could power five speakers that went below 4 ohms (min impedance was 2.7 ohms). At loud volume, not eardrum-bursting volume.

So any tech or Rep who would say something that ridiculous (Yamaha A1080 can’t power more than a pair of 4 ohm speaker) must be a total noob.

 

[PENG]

PENG, that includes all AVR'S? Denon, Onkyo are famous for saying 4 Ohm stable on all channels. Is that just a marketing ploy?

Denon/Marantz's "stable on all channels" claim should be legit because they covered themselves by including the following instructions in the Owner's Manual.

My Son has the Yamaha a1050 before he paired his EMOTIVA XPA 2 back in his rack that A1050 had no problem at all driving before 4 Ohm load speakers in a 7.2 setup. If the case of Yamaha being a little overprotective of their units i can understand the why they would recommend only 4 Ohms minimum just on the front L/R. If that's the case, what about the LCR? Or like I'm sure your about to tell me, Mike just get yourself a 7 channel amp and be done with all this nonsense..lol..just picking at ya a bit on the last part PENG.

If he has been doing it and have had no problem, then it means he's a sensible person and/or his speakers/room, despite being 4 ohms, do not need a lot of power. Remember, as shown in the often linked calculator below:

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Power requirements do not depend on one single factor, it depends largely on the required sound pressure level (spl),but also depends on:

- seating distance.
- speaker's sensitivity in X dB @2.83V/1m or @1W/1m
- speaker's impedance
- room gain (near wall, corner etc.)

Required SPL is obviously the key factor. For example, if he watches movies at 75 dB average, 95 dB peak, speaker sensitivity 90 dB/2.83V/1m, that is, 87 dB if impedance is 4 ohms, and his seating distance is 10 ft, then the calculator would show he needs 30 WPC into 4 ohms. The A1050 obviously would have no problem doing the job. If however, he needs 85 dB average, then he will need an external amp that can do 300 WPC into 4 ohms.

Regardless, I would definitely suggest he put a fan or 2 on top. The build in fans should be adequate to protect the unit from dying within the warranty period (my educated guess) for normal use, but adding the extra fans on top will likely extend life well beyond the warranty period.

 

[Phase 2]

Denon/Marantz's "stable on all channels" claim should be legit because they covered themselves by including the following instructions in the Owner's Manual.

View attachment 29510



If he has been doing it and have had no problem, then it means he's a sensible person and/or his speakers/room, despite being 4 ohms, do not need a lot of power. Remember, as shown in the often linked calculator below:

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Power requirements do not depend on one single factor, it depends largely on the required sound pressure level (spl),but also depends on:

- seating distance.
- speaker's sensitivity in X dB @2.83V/1m or @1W/1m
- speaker's impedance
- room gain (near wall, corner etc.)

Required SPL is obviously the key factor. For example, if he watches movies at 75 dB average, 95 dB peak, speaker sensitivity 90 dB/2.83V/1m, that is, 87 dB if impedance is 4 ohms, and his seating distance is 10 ft, then the calculator would show he needs 30 WPC into 4 ohms. The A1050 obviously would have no problem doing the job. If however, he needs 85 dB average, then he will need an external amp that can do 300 WPC into 4 ohms.

Regardless, I would definitely suggest he put a fan or 2 on top. The build in fans should be adequate to protect the unit from dying within the warranty period (my educated guess) for normal use, but adding the extra fans on top will likely extend life well beyond the warranty period.

Thanks PENG, I forgot to mention on that A1050 he can switch to 4 Ohm setting. Now it seems maybe, to me anyway that Yamaha may have changed up something in there amp section. But I have a better understanding now. Even Onkyo AVR'S at least their upper and a can handle 4 Ohm on all channels. Why Yamaha doing that? To cut cost?