The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[Verdinut]

Or you could hang your TT, from your ceiling. I once lived in a mobile home. Acoustic feedback was a nightmare till I hung my TT from my ceiling using brass chains and plexiglass for the TT to sit on and wallah no more acoustic feedback no matter what the volume was.

Another solution for feedback problem is to hang a turntable shelf on a wall so there is no contact with the floor.

 

[Verdinut]

But, what I'm experiencing is silent pulsating of the membrane with quite some excursion.

So, what is creating the standing waves while playing the empty portion of the record? If it’s 100Hz, why don’t I hear it? Why isn’t the stylus picking it up while lifted above the record?

That low pulsating cone movement that you are getting is way below the 100 Hz which was mentioned in a previous post. It's definitely a feedback problem from the speakers to the turntable through the floor.

 

[killdozzer]

previous post.

What is the no of that post?

 

[Verdinut]

What is the no of that post?

No. 38

 

[killdozzer]

No. 38

But it's that exact very post where it says around 100Hz. That's exactly why I'm asking how come I can't hear it... Not that I don't trust you, but I'm double-checking everything.

 

[Verdinut]

But it's that exact very post where it says around 100Hz. That's exactly why I'm asking how come I can't hear it... Not that I don't trust you, but I'm double-checking everything.

You don't hear it because it's not at a frequency nearing 100 Hz at all. You wouldn't be able to easily see the pulsation of a speaker vibrating 100 times a second.

 

[killdozzer]

 

[killdozzer]

You don't hear it because it's not at a frequency nearing 100 Hz at all. You wouldn't be able to easily see the pulsation of a speaker vibrating 100 times a second.

I agree. But it was mentioned there so I asked. So, what is making it, what's the source?

 

[killdozzer]

Is it this:
Along with the effective mass of the tonearm, the compliance will determine the low frequency resonance of the arm and cartridge. At the resonance point, the arm/cartridge combination produces a dramatic rise in output, an increase of 3-6dB or more is not uncommon. If this resonance frequency occurs in the region of recorded music (above 20Hz) or where rumble and record warps are problematic (<5Hz),the lower bass frequencies may be negatively affected, the audibility and speaker excursion of warps and rumble exacerbated, or in extreme cases the stylus will jump out of the record groove. In general, many cartridges and arms will mate well together and you’re unlikely to encounter any extreme compliance issues. Low mass arms mate well with moderately high and very high compliance cartridges, while moderate mass tonearms mate well with low compliance cartridges. To calculate the resonance frequency of your tonearm / cartridge combination, you can use the formula Resonant Frequency = 1000/[6.28*square root (M*C)] where M is the mass of the arm and cartridge and C is the compliance of the cartridge. For example, an arm/cartridge with a combined mass of 18g, and a cartridge with a compliance of 22 would yield a resonant frequency of 8.392Hz. A resonant frequency somewhere between 10-14Hz is ideal, but between 8 and 17Hz is usually acceptable.

 

[Verdinut]

I agree. But it was mentioned there so I asked. So, what is making it, what's the source?

Your answer is at Post #42.

 

[killdozzer]

Your answer is at Post #42.

No, the source... Where does it begin?

 

[Verdinut]

No, the source... Where does it begin?

You will find anwers here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_feedback

 

[Verdinut]

Here is a more adequate info with regard to turntable feedback and solutions:

https://www.residentadvisor.net/images/features/2018/Objekt-isolation-guide.pdf

 

[killdozzer]

I did notice improvement in some unexpected way; turning the Dolby Pro Logic filter on doesn't reduce sound as much as it use to. I hope this means there's less distortion so it filters less. The membranes are noticeably calmer, but I don't know who is the guilty party because I detached the entire dust cover this time to get it out of the way while adjusting the tone arm and all. I have a feeling it augmented the problem as a huge resonator suspended above the working needle. They are still not calm, but it doesn't look scary this time around.

Finally, the new cartridge is up and running and everything seems to be OK. I'd like to buy more precise rulers and scales to fine tune all bits and bobs. I've listened to a Ry Cooder record as I expected it'll have good mastering and it really did sound nice, pleasant.

I also believe the turntable could use some ol' fashioned lube.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'd like to buy more precise rulers and scales to fine tune all bits and bobs.

Likely what you want is called calipers

Old manual Vernier calipers are better (more accurate and precise), but modern digi calipers are dead simple to use and should be fine for your application.

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Caliper-Adoric-Calipers-Measuring/dp/B07DFFYCXS/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=calipers&qid=1557260036&s=gateway&sr=8-5

 

[highfigh]

I got a heads up about this in the personal message. Funny thing happened here; before clicking "post reply" I went to double-check what I found in the manual and already saw that I was wrong - it was the arm LIFT height adjustment and not the arm height adjustments. So I came back here to delete the text before posting and did so with Ctrl+A+Delete and then I went on to type the rest of the post, but in the end when I clicked "post reply" my deleted text also appeared.

Long story short, I did see what height is mentioned in the manual before posting this. Sorry for clogging up.

@Swerd & @TLS Guy I just want to be sure we do talk about the same thing. Between your two posts one would conclude that there's an audible 100Hz and inaudible 100Hz, but when I play the Sheffield Test CD, the freq of 100Hz is clearly and easily audible. But, what I'm experiencing is silent pulsating of the membrane with quite some excursion.

So, what is creating the standing waves while playing the empty portion of the record? If it’s 100Hz, why don’t I hear it? Why isn’t the stylus picking it up while lifted above the record?

At the moment my cables are way too short to move the TT around, but I’ll give that a shot when I rearrange the set up. When I hook up my TT to the NAD pre-amp I’ll run a longer interconnect between the NAD and the Yamaha to see if it helps.

As far as mats go, I must thank you for your intentions, but a cork mat is not going anywhere near my TT. Cork mat is the croc shoe of the Vinyl world, it’s disgusting, I don’t care for the properties. Also, the first four you’re recommending are completely flat, which means they hold the playing part of the record in the air never completely flat on the mat. But the number 5 is the winner, that one actually has thin cylinders that lift the record even higher in the air. I mean, don’t hold this against me, I’m just going by what Floyd Toole said here, quote: Flat mats are a waste of time, including the occasionally praised felt. The label area and perimeter are thicker which lifts the groove area away from the mat. The groove area needs to be in contact with the mat to damp vibrations, and vibrations are what the stylus picks up.

This is why Toole recommends sculptured mats and this is what I have. Only one compromise I can see myself doing and that is putting an extra damping layer between the platter and the rubber mat.

LPs stopped being completely flat when the record companies decided to save money and tell people that they have a thicker label area and lip to avoid damage when record players could play several discs, rather than one at a time.

Press your finger onto the turntable base next time you have feedback and if it stops, repeat this, but press on whatever the turntable is sitting on. This will tell you if the energy is being transferred through the base, or through the air.

 

[killdozzer]

Likely what you want is called calipers

Old manual Vernier calipers are better (more accurate and precise), but modern digi calipers are dead simple to use and should be fine for your application.

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Caliper-Adoric-Calipers-Measuring/dp/B07DFFYCXS/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=calipers&qid=1557260036&s=gateway&sr=8-5

I meant this:

 

[highfigh]

View attachment 29336

This is your cartridge and headshell? If so, the cartridge needs to be moved back, roughly to the middle of the slots for the screws. Many turntable mats from companies like Sony had a grid molded into the rubber, where it had a thicker long line intersecting with a thicker short line- this was where the stylus tip was to be located when the headshell was suspended over the centerline. If your mat doesn't have this, do you have a manual for the turntable? It has a group of 28 images on page 2- look at #27 for the distance from the shoulder of the headshell to the stylus.

file:///C:/Users/USER/Downloads/Technics-SLQ-202-Owners-Manual.pdf

Moving the cartridge farther from the pivot lowers the resonant frequency, as would increasing the compliance and/or tonearm mass.

The movement in your speaker cones is caused by non-flat LPs and incorrect resonant frequency. Ideally, the stylus compliance and the tonearm mass will allow this to be relatively low, but when an LP isn't flat, all kinds of things happen. In your search for solutions, you'll see recommendations for all kinds of things, including record clamps and weights. I prefer clamping to adding weight because a clamp doesn't increase the pressure on the spindle bearing- lacking a way to flatten LPs, a clamp helps a lot.

 

[killdozzer]

LPs stopped being completely flat when the record companies decided to save money and tell people that they have a thicker label area and lip to avoid damage when record players could play several discs, rather than one at a time.

Press your finger onto the turntable base next time you have feedback and if it stops, repeat this, but press on whatever the turntable is sitting on. This will tell you if the energy is being transferred through the base, or through the air.

Thanks. I already did this. It reduces the phenomenon, but doesn't stop it. Lightest touches on the TT makes quite a noise.

 

[killdozzer]

This is your cartridge and headshell? If so, the cartridge needs to be moved back, roughly to the middle of the slots for the screws. Many turntable mats from companies like Sony had a grid molded into the rubber, where it had a thicker long line intersecting with a thicker short line- this was where the stylus tip was to be located when the headshell was suspended over the centerline. If your mat doesn't have this, do you have a manual for the turntable? It has a group of 28 images on page 2- look at #27 for the distance from the shoulder of the headshell to the stylus.

file:///C:/Users/USER/Downloads/Technics-SLQ-202-Owners-Manual.pdf

Moving the cartridge farther from the pivot lowers the resonant frequency, as would increasing the compliance and/or tonearm mass.

The movement in your speaker cones is caused by non-flat LPs and incorrect resonant frequency. Ideally, the stylus compliance and the tonearm mass will allow this to be relatively low, but when an LP isn't flat, all kinds of things happen. In your search for solutions, you'll see recommendations for all kinds of things, including record clamps and weights. I prefer clamping to adding weight because a clamp doesn't increase the pressure on the spindle bearing- lacking a way to flatten LPs, a clamp helps a lot.

Good eye! You're a winner! When you come to my town the lunch is on me!
Not only that, but it is connected wrong. I was waiting to see will anyone notice.

Yes, it's all according to the manual. 52mm and all.