PB-2000 not impressed

[William Lemmerhirt]

Can’t remember for sure, but it seems we talked about ported earlier in this thread. I still believe you should’ve gone ported. I mostly always believe ported is better.(of course I mean competently manufactured).

If you can return it, I would consider doing that and keep shopping. The sbultra is a beast. But it’s not ported...

 

[lovinthehd]

I checked the cea 2010 data and it shows
SB 13 Ultra at 20hz is 96.5 at 40hz 112.2 and 80hz 117.3
VTF 3 MK5 one port open at 20 hz 114.4 at 40hz 126.1 and 80hz 125.1

Okay, the Hsu looks better over more frequencies than I thought....maybe you should do as suggested and return the SB13....if you are looking for more output....and in that big a room a more powerful sub might be more satisfying overall...

 

[ryanosaur]

Totally agree... I think if you really want sealed boxes, you need to build a small squad... like 4... in that room. 2 good ported boxes should really take care of that room, though. Based on everything I've heard the Hsu 15" offerings are flipping great, esp for the cost. Keep in mind, you still pay for all the shipping with SVS product... they just build it in to the price (shipping both ways, upgrade within a year...).

One of our Subwoofer gurus really likes the ULS15mk2 deployed in such a small squad... if you get good cabin gain, especially, those 4 boxes would be borderline devastating. In your room though, say ~4000'3, you might be at the edge of good cabin gain. (Every room is different, mind.) But with a good cabin gain, you would see higher dB and lower FR combined.

 

[snakeeyes]

Totally agree... I think if you really want sealed boxes, you need to build a small squad... like 4... in that room. 2 good ported boxes should really take care of that room, though. Based on everything I've heard the Hsu 15" offerings are flipping great, esp for the cost. Keep in mind, you still pay for all the shipping with SVS product... they just build it in to the price (shipping both ways, upgrade within a year...).

One of our Subwoofer gurus really likes the ULS15mk2 deployed in such a small squad... if you get good cabin gain, especially, those 4 boxes would be borderline devastating. In your room though, say ~4000'3, you might be at the edge of good cabin gain. (Every room is different, mind.) But with a good cabin gain, you would see higher dB and lower FR combined.

I think ported is the way to go. Especially if the cabinet is built nice.

 

[Danzilla31]

I think ported is the way to go. Especially if the cabinet is built nice.

Hey speaking of building did you ever put your ceiling speakers in?

 

[snakeeyes]

Hey speaking of building did you ever put your ceiling speakers in?

Ya need to pop them mofos in before it gets hot in the attic again. I have those RSL speakers chillin in my closet. Gotta let them loose!!!!!

 

[bravo79]

Here is both subs playing the same song
HSU

SVS

 

[shadyJ]

I checked the cea 2010 data and it shows
SB 13 Ultra at 20hz is 96.5 at 40hz 112.2 and 80hz 117.3
VTF 3 MK5 one port open at 20 hz 114.4 at 40hz 126.1 and 80hz 125.1

Ok a few things... The numbers for the SVS sub are stated in 2 meter RMS which is 9 dB down from Hsu's numbers which is stated in 1 meter peak that is specified by the CEA-2010 standard. So to make them comparable, you need to subtract 9 dB from Hsu's numbers. Even then though, the Hsu still have a very substantial lead, because you are comparing two very different subwoofer designs. The SB13-Ultra is what you get if you can't accommodate a large sub. It sacrifices a lot of deep bass output toward achieving that end. The Hsu sub would be a lot more powerful, at least from 16 Hz to maybe 50 Hz.

 

[shadyJ]

Here is both subs playing the same song
HSU

SVS

That is a terrible demo track to demo subs on, especially ported subs. Many of the notes in that track lay below the tuning frequencies of almost all ported subs. So be playing that track, you are giving ported subs content that is below their intended frequency range. Some sealed subs are made to hit those low frequencies, but it is really hard on the drivers. Don't judge a ported sub by what it does at 10 Hz, unless it bottoms out. Use stuff with content above it tuning frequency. That track is made for car audio demos where cabin gain is ridiculous.

 

[lovinthehd]

Plus comparing two different systems via uploaded videos is a lousy way to convey what a sub does or doesn't do (or pretty much any audio gear).

 

[ryanosaur]

I think ported is the way to go. Especially if the cabinet is built nice.

This seems to be one of those age-old questions. I can't say I have any complaints with my (mostly) ported rig as it stands right now. Yet the more I read the design books, the more I question which is potentially better and how: sealed or ported?
A lot of questions the more I read! Where does room size and cabin gain cross in terms of usable SPL and FR gains? (But that's more of an acoustics question rather than a design question.)
I get that ported designs allow for higher output at lower tuning. That is incontrovertible. Regardless, I keep coming back to this idea being presented, especially by Dickason in the LCD7, that ports, in a certain way, are sort of a controlled distortion. The more you look towards LF and High Output, the bigger your box, and port, needs to be (but a longer single port introduces its own resonance problems!). Dickason does indicate that many have considered these issues to be non-problematic, yet the simple fact of an inherent non-linearity remains.
Maybe I'll grok this all in a month, or 100. (Please let it be sooner than later!!! )

But all that being said... Go Big! Get well designed Subs/Speakers that suit your needs. And if in doubt...

Step up to the next biggest.

 

[shadyJ]

This seems to be one of those age-old questions. I can't say I have any complaints with my (mostly) ported rig as it stands right now. Yet the more I read the design books, the more I question which is potentially better and how: sealed or ported?
A lot of questions the more I read! Where does room size and cabin gain cross in terms of usable SPL and FR gains? (But that's more of an acoustics question rather than a design question.)
I get that ported designs allow for higher output at lower tuning. That is incontrovertible. Regardless, I keep coming back to this idea being presented, especially by Dickason in the LCD7, that ports, in a certain way, are sort of a controlled distortion. The more you look towards LF and High Output, the bigger your box, and port, needs to be (but a longer single port introduces its own resonance problems!). Dickason does indicate that many have considered these issues to be non-problematic, yet the simple fact of an inherent non-linearity remains.
Maybe I'll grok this all in a month, or 100. (Please let it be sooner than later!!! )

But all that being said... Go Big! Get well designed Subs/Speakers that suit your needs. And if in doubt...

Step up to the next biggest.

If you want to know the practical difference between ported and sealed subs, just look at any review measurements from Josh Ricci or myself that cover a variable tuned sub, and look at the differences between ported and sealed operation.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This seems to be one of those age-old questions. I can't say I have any complaints with my (mostly) ported rig as it stands right now. Yet the more I read the design books, the more I question which is potentially better and how: sealed or ported?
A lot of questions the more I read! Where does room size and cabin gain cross in terms of usable SPL and FR gains? (But that's more of an acoustics question rather than a design question.)
I get that ported designs allow for higher output at lower tuning. That is incontrovertible. Regardless, I keep coming back to this idea being presented, especially by Dickason in the LCD7, that ports, in a certain way, are sort of a controlled distortion. The more you look towards LF and High Output, the bigger your box, and port, needs to be (but a longer single port introduces its own resonance problems!). Dickason does indicate that many have considered these issues to be non-problematic, yet the simple fact of an inherent non-linearity remains.
Maybe I'll grok this all in a month, or 100. (Please let it be sooner than later!!! )

But all that being said... Go Big! Get well designed Subs/Speakers that suit your needs. And if in doubt...

Step up to the next biggest.

One way around the port resonance issue is to use multiple ports.

 

[ryanosaur]

If you want to know the practical difference between ported and sealed subs, just look at any review measurements from Josh Ricci or myself that cover a variable tuned sub, and look at the differences between ported and sealed operation.

I get it Shady... that I don't get it yet. I see those charts and numbers, but am still lacking an experiential reference point. I'm working on it though. We all have to start somewhere.

If I can get it together in time:

Subwoofer Summer is coming.

 

[shadyJ]

One way around the port resonance issue is to use multiple ports.

No, port resonance is what you want ports to do! That is the function of ports. What you might be talking about is port turbulence. Multiple ports do not reduce port turbulence, at least for the same tuning frequency. However, multiple ports can reduce turbulence by raising the tuning frequency and allowing more volumetric area in the port chambers.

 

[shadyJ]

I get it Shady... that I don't get it yet. I see those charts and numbers, but am still lacking an experiential reference point. I'm working on it though. We all have to start somewhere.

If I can get it together in time:

Subwoofer Summer is coming.

You have the means for a experiential reference point because you have the Outlaw subs. What you can do is measure and listen to the difference your self by changing their modes.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

No, port resonance is what you want ports to do! That is the function of ports. What you might be talking about is port turbulence. Multiple ports do not reduce port turbulence, at least for the same tuning frequency. However, multiple ports can reduce turbulence by raising the tuning frequency and allowing more volumetric area in the port chambers.

Yes turbulence is what I thought Ryan May have been talking about. Nobody wants their subs to sound like a didgeridoo!!!

 

[ryanosaur]

You have the means for a experiential reference point because you have the Outlaw subs. What you can do is measure and listen to the difference your self by changing their modes.

Indeed... I'm already plotting my path towards measurements now that my work-season as a chef is picking up with tourist season. (And that my 3s are so close, too!)

(To think, its only been 10 mos since I ordered my Marantz... and 4 since I've had it back, repaired, with amazing speakers to listen with. 8 mos since I joined AH!)

 

[shadyJ]

Indeed... I'm already plotting my path towards measurements now that my work-season as a chef is picking up with tourist season. (And that my 3s are so close, too!)

(To think, its only been 10 mos since I ordered my Marantz... and 4 since I've had it back, repaired, with amazing speakers to listen with. 8 mos since I joined AH!)

Time flies when you are having fun!

 

[bravo79]

So what’ve been seeing is that most of the questions about vtf-3 mk5 vs pb-2000. I’m sure the vtf is better. But does the vtf compare to pb-3000?