Marantz SR6013 Vs Yamaha RX-A1080 AVENTAGE

[KEW]

Behind the sofa in fact there will be a big window starting from the floor up to almost the ceiling, the same at the right side of the sofa. The new approach is to move the sofa a little bit forward but no more than half meter away from the window. I estimate the back Atmos will be positioned around 1,5 meters away from the front Atmos in order all of them to be symmetrical to the listening position.

You should get some heavy draperies and close them for better sound.

 

[click]

You should get some heavy draperies and close them for better sound.

The windows were designed on purpose to be like this, in order to have plenty of sunlight in the living room and some nice view. The room is not a dedicated HT.

 

[Phase 2]

Which unit did you pick? Really either one are nice AVR'S.

 

[click]

Which unit did you pick? Really either one are nice AVR'S.

I haven’t decided yet but if I go for the 5.1.4 setup most probably it will be the Marantz SR6013. The 9 channel Yamaha A2080 is far beyond my budget especially considering I’ll have to buy more speakers.

 

[PENG]

I haven’t decided yet but if I go for the 5.1.4 setup most probably it will be the Marantz SR6013. The 9 channel Yamaha A2080 is far beyond my budget especially considering I’ll have to buy more speakers.

Since you mentioned "budget", I got curious about prices in Germany so I just visited Amazon.de and found:

AVR-X4500H - EUR 1.049,00 (1.040,00 for silver) vs SR7013 EUR 1.697,00
AVR-X4400H - EUR 922,39 vs SR7012 EUR 1.249,00
SR6013 - EUR 909,00

So the best deal appears to be the AVR-X4500, that is basically a SR7013 minus HDAM and the 7.1 analog inputs. HDAM or not, I heard no difference whatsoever, followed by some of my own measurements and found no reason to believe there would be any audible difference.

The SR7012, AVR-X4400H (99% same as the 2018 model less IMAX enhance...) were reviewed by Audiovision.de, complete with bench tested power output into 8.6, and 4 ohm figures. Surely you can read German, without having to go through Google translate and risk loss in translation.

http://audiovision.de/marantz-sr7012-test/
http://audiovision.de/denon-avr-x4400h-test/
http://audiovision.de/yamaha-rx-a3080-test/

Note that all were tested for 7 channel driven, the D&M pair got the same results at 99W X 7 into 4 ohms vs the RX-A3080's 69W X 7 (for real world use the Yamaha should feel a little more powerful) if you can believe the adequacy of their test protocol.

The SR6012 was also tested, it yielded about 10% less output, that's pretty close.

So if I were in Germany, my best choice would be either AVR-X4500H or the SR7012 (only for the look) if I ignore the IMAX feature. As I mentioned before, I have owned, and still own both Denon and Marantz products. To me, with eyes closed, they are identical twins.

 

[click]

Since you mentioned "budget", I got curious about prices in Germany so I just visited Amazon.de and found:

AVR-X4500H - EUR 1.049,00 (1.040,00 for silver) vs SR7013 EUR 1.697,00
AVR-X4400H - EUR 922,39 vs SR7012 EUR 1.249,00
SR6013 - EUR 909,00

So the best deal appears to be the AVR-X4500, that is basically a SR7013 minus HDAM and the 7.1 analog inputs. HDAM or not, I heard no difference whatsoever, followed by some of my own measurements and found no reason to believe there would be any audible difference.

The SR7012, AVR-X4400H (99% same as the 2018 model less IMAX enhance...) were reviewed by Audiovision.de, complete with best tested power output into 8.6, and 4 ohm figures. Surely you can read German, without having to go through Google translate and risk loss in translation.

http://audiovision.de/marantz-sr7012-test/
http://audiovision.de/denon-avr-x4400h-test/
http://audiovision.de/yamaha-rx-a3080-test/

Note that all were tested for 7 channel driven, the D&M pair got the same results at 99W X 7 into 4 ohms vs the RX-A3080's 69W X 7 (for real world use the Yamaha should feel a little more powerful) if you can believe the adequacy of their test protocol.

The SR6012 was also tested, it yielded about 10% less output, that's pretty close.

So if I were in Germany, my best choice would be either AVR-X4500H or the SR7012 (only for the look) if I ignore the IMAX feature. As I mentioned before, I have owned, and still own both Denon and Marantz products. To me, with eyes closed, they are identical twins.

Those are the Amazon prices, which do not differ much from the best prices you can find in German market, but there is some difference. You can use this website to check and compare prices from other online stores: www.idealo.de

The difference between the AVR-X4500H and the SR6013 in Amazon is approximately 100 euros, however if you compare prices from other stores you see you can save even more, close to 150 euros. It is not big money but it is still some considerable difference. Now considering that I am going to proceed to this purchase in a 6-9 month time or more from now, the SR6013 can potentially go even lower to reach the 800 euros, while the AVR-X4500H is not expected to drop much further.

What I want to say is 200 euros more for a receiver that is almost identical as you said, that has more power that I do not need and without having better performance in music, which is the only reason I would be willing to spend a little more money, I do not think it does worth it the difference. The look of the AVR-X4500H is also good (much better looking than its smaller sibling) but I think I will stay with the SR6013.

 

[M Code]

Since you mentioned "budget", I got curious about prices in Germany so I just visited Amazon.de and found:

AVR-X4500H - EUR 1.049,00 (1.040,00 for silver) vs SR7013 EUR 1.697,00
AVR-X4400H - EUR 922,39 vs SR7012 EUR 1.249,00
SR6013 - EUR 909,00

So the best deal appears to be the AVR-X4500, that is basically a SR7013 minus HDAM and the 7.1 analog inputs. HDAM or not, I heard no difference whatsoever, followed by some of my own measurements and found no reason to believe there would be any audible difference.

The SR7012, AVR-X4400H (99% same as the 2018 model less IMAX enhance...) were reviewed by Audiovision.de, complete with best tested power output into 8.6, and 4 ohm figures. Surely you can read German, without having to go through Google translate and risk loss in translation.

http://audiovision.de/marantz-sr7012-test/
http://audiovision.de/denon-avr-x4400h-test/
http://audiovision.de/yamaha-rx-a3080-test/

Note that all were tested for 7 channel driven, the D&M pair got the same results at 99W X 7 into 4 ohms vs the RX-A3080's 69W X 7 (for real world use the Yamaha should feel a little more powerful) if you can believe the adequacy of their test protocol.

The SR6012 was also tested, it yielded about 10% less output, that's pretty close.

So if I were in Germany, my best choice would be either AVR-X4500H or the SR7012 (only for the look) if I ignore the IMAX feature. As I mentioned before, I have owned, and still own both Denon and Marantz products. To me, with eyes closed, they are identical twins.

As Peng posted..
For the last (2) generations of Marantz & Denon AVRs they have used common tooling, processors & PCBs, and now even the same outsourced factory in Vietnam. For many years, under D&M ownership they attempted to maintain (2) different brand/product identities but the significant costs of having double development/engineering/sourcing resources was too great so they merged them... Now under the ownership of Direct they are trying more different marketing and positioning strategies.. Also now placing more emphasis on HEOS and wireless, multi-source/room products. So far they appear to be doing well in a very challenging market, I hope they do well both brands are well respected..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Good4it]

Note that all were tested for 7 channel driven, the D&M pair got the same results at 99W X 7 into 4 ohms vs the RX-A3080's 69W X 7 (for real world use the Yamaha should feel a little more powerful) if you can believe the adequacy of their test protocol.

Yamaha claims 150 watts per channel. Is that much power loss right?

 

[PENG]

What I want to say is 200 euros more for a receiver that is almost identical as you said, that has more power that

I did not say that, I said "the AVR-X4500, that is basically a SR7013 minus HDAM and the 7.1 analog inputs."

The SR6013 is sort of half a notch down, close enough to the 4500/7013 for practical purposes, but I wouldn't consider it "almost identical" to those two as such.

 

[click]

I did not say that, I said "the AVR-X4500, that is basically a SR7013 minus HDAM and the 7.1 analog inputs."

The SR6013 is sort of half a notch down, close enough to the 4500/7013 for practical purposes, but I wouldn't consider it "almost identical" to those two as such.

So the question for me here is, aside the power difference, in terms of sound performance only, is the 4500 any better than 6013?

 

[PENG]

So the question for me here is, aside the power difference, in terms of sound performance only, is the 4500 any better than 6013?

I have not done any AB comparison between those two, but based on what I have seen and read I would guess no, especially if used as prepro only. The 4500 and 7013 have a slightly larger power supply but that's about it. I have no idea why D&M rated the THD for models above the 4000 series (D),and 7000 series (M) 0.05 % and the lower models 0.08 %, I guess that's part of their marketing strategy, as from the schematics I see no technical reasons for the difference, the preamp and amp sections look identical on paper (again, except the power supplies). Even just by looking at the attached photos (from websites),you can hardly tell a difference, except of course the Marantz models have the HDAM modules. Regarding the HDAM, I can't see how an extra unity gain buffer stage at the output of the preamp can help, what happened to the concept of simplicity, simple gain path etc etc... Isn't fidelity, accuracy part of their common goals?

I mentioned the 4500 for your consideration, or the 7012 because of the relatively small price differential, based on Amazon Germany. Denon apparently sells much more units than Marantz according to @M Code, so it is understandable why as the newer models are coming out, we tend to see larger discounts on the current year Denon models than the comparable Marantz models.

Below are links to the source of the attached photos:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=888&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=zE6-XKbTLZS6-gTs3ImABQ&q=avr-x4500h+photos&oq=avr-x4500h+photos&gs_l=img.3...1655.7763..8034...0.0..0.121.1873.0j17......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i67j0i5i30j0i24j0i30.lqhhyc60YX8#imgrc=MJT6Ky9VglVmvM:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=888&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=nEO-XM-VLbLO0PEPtdCwkA0&q=marantz+sr7013+photos&oq=marantz+sr7013+photos&gs_l=img.3...2723.3263..3667...0.0..0.118.226.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.ZtbsRYu7QpQ#imgdii=xc-No9n-Kbu5KM:&imgrc=o0PcpX4Wtm22nM:

https://www.google.com/search?q=marantz+sr6013+photos&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:Cb0nY7JzR4jBIjhRjfPM7X5ixX-13E9l3xkfXM9whW8hAkXX1AeR3okl-KKua3HNbvoUo1nEsBWfaJkWmKXtI1UuFyoSCVGN88ztfmLFETmo1EU_1_1hAqKhIJf7XcT2XfGR8RXjJFwr5K31sqEglcz3CFbyECRREDjcw6Z7pVJioSCdfUB5HeiSX4EVmbvdlAI0-GKhIJoq5rcc1u-hQRXt4HgLKa92gqEgmjWcSwFZ9omRENvWYdZx2eDioSCRaYpe0jVS4XEYamuPuxspR8&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMwdn37eThAhVGqJ4KHQtND_IQ9C96BAgBEBg&biw=1920&bih=888&dpr=1#imgrc=ApJAX9DtRnvVWM:

 

[click]

Thank you very much for the detailed answer.

Well..since the Denon AVR-X4500H is almost identical to Marantz SR6013 in terms of pre-amp stage, power amp design and user interface, since the Denon's advantage in power is not making any difference for my speakers, since other feature advantages like Auro-3D, more zones etc. are either not top priorities or irrelevant for me, since both receivers are quiet good looking devices with metal front face and since there is a considerable price difference of around 200 euros between them, isn't it more wise choice to go for the cheaper Marantz and invest the price difference in the new surround speakers, which eventually makes easier for me to go for a 5.1.4 setup?

To summarize my current situation is:

I need a new Dolby Atmos capable AV receiver, and at least 4 new surround speakers for the backs and the Atmos for a new 5.1.2 setup. A 5.1.4 setup might be possible too but definitely no more than that due to my room configuration.

My initial budget for a new receiver within the German market in at least 6 month time from now is in the range where the Marantz SR6013 and the Yamaha RX-A880 can be offered. The next step budget-wise is the Denon AVR-X4500H and the Yamaha RX-A1080, and I could make this step only if I can get any real benefit for my needs with the main focus being in sound fidelity. The second step, again speaking about budget, is the Marantz SR7013 and the Yamaha RX-A2080 and it seems impossible for me to make this step as I will exceed my initial budget by a big margin and there will be no money left in my pocket for the speakers.

Considering all these, and after all the above discussion, I still think the best choice for my needs is the Marantz SR6013. Only in case I decide that a 5.1.4 setup cannot be fitted or be very beneficial for my room and if the price of the Yamaha RX-A1080 can drop close to the levels of the SR6013, I may also consider again the Yamaha only for the different user interface and experience, for the better looking front face design, for the DAB+ integrated receiver and perhaps for better reliability in long term (since according to all you there is no real benefit in audio quality).

Do you agree with my thought? Am I missing anything?

 

[Phase 2]

I have not done any AB comparison between those two, but based on what I have seen and read I would guess no, especially if used as prepro only. The 4500 and 7013 have a slightly larger power supply but that's about it. I have no idea why D&M rated the THD for models above the 4000 series (D),and 7000 series (M) 0.05 % and the lower models 0.08 %, I guess that's part of their marketing strategy, as from the schematics I see no technical reasons for the difference, the preamp and amp sections look identical on paper (again, except the power supplies). Even just by looking at the attached photos (from websites),you can hardly tell a difference, except of course the Marantz models have the HDAM modules. Regarding the HDAM, I can't see how an extra unity gain buffer stage at the output of the preamp can help, what happened to the concept of simplicity, simple gain path etc etc... Isn't fidelity, accuracy part of their common goals?

I mentioned the 4500 for your consideration, or the 7012 because of the relatively small price differential, based on Amazon Germany. Denon apparently sells much more units than Marantz according to @M Code, so it is understandable why as the newer models are coming out, we tend to see larger discounts on the current year Denon models than the comparable Marantz models.

Below are links to the source of the attached photos:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=888&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=zE6-XKbTLZS6-gTs3ImABQ&q=avr-x4500h+photos&oq=avr-x4500h+photos&gs_l=img.3...1655.7763..8034...0.0..0.121.1873.0j17......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i67j0i5i30j0i24j0i30.lqhhyc60YX8#imgrc=MJT6Ky9VglVmvM:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=888&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=nEO-XM-VLbLO0PEPtdCwkA0&q=marantz+sr7013+photos&oq=marantz+sr7013+photos&gs_l=img.3...2723.3263..3667...0.0..0.118.226.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.ZtbsRYu7QpQ#imgdii=xc-No9n-Kbu5KM:&imgrc=o0PcpX4Wtm22nM:

https://www.google.com/search?q=marantz+sr6013+photos&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:Cb0nY7JzR4jBIjhRjfPM7X5ixX-13E9l3xkfXM9whW8hAkXX1AeR3okl-KKua3HNbvoUo1nEsBWfaJkWmKXtI1UuFyoSCVGN88ztfmLFETmo1EU_1_1hAqKhIJf7XcT2XfGR8RXjJFwr5K31sqEglcz3CFbyECRREDjcw6Z7pVJioSCdfUB5HeiSX4EVmbvdlAI0-GKhIJoq5rcc1u-hQRXt4HgLKa92gqEgmjWcSwFZ9omRENvWYdZx2eDioSCRaYpe0jVS4XEYamuPuxspR8&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMwdn37eThAhVGqJ4KHQtND_IQ9C96BAgBEBg&biw=1920&bih=888&dpr=1#imgrc=ApJAX9DtRnvVWM:

PENG, what are the benefits with Yamaha's "symmetrical" amp design? in the flagship line.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yamaha claims 150 watts per channel. Is that much power loss right?

No. It’s because Yamaha believe in stricter Protection Circuits for their Consumer amps.

In the real world, consumer amps don’t face All Channels Driven situations like in the Stress Tests.

 

[PENG]

Do you agree with my thought? Am I missing anything?

You now seem to have done a thorough analysis, and I agree base on what you have told us so far, the SR6013 is a great choice for your needs.

You said

The second step, again speaking about budget, is the Marantz SR7013 and the Yamaha RX-A2080

That's a little puzzling, unless you meant the RX-A3080. Also, as I mentioned before, the Denon AVR-X4500H should be compared to the Marantz SR7013, so going from it to the 7013 is not a "step up" at all, but simply a preference of the brand and the HDAM thing.

It used to be easier to compare the D&M models but since 2016, Marantz upgraded the SR6000 series to 9 channels. After that, it becomes more difficult to compare based on features and specs only.

In case it may matter to others, I would like to rank them for comparisons based on features and specs only as follow.

1. AVR-X8500H
2. SR8012
3. AVR-X6500H
4. SR7013, AVR-X4500H
5. SR6013
6. AVR-X3500H (2 channel less than the SR6013)
7. SR5013 (comes with Audyssey XT only)
8. AVR-X2500H

 

[PENG]

PENG, what are the benefits with Yamaha's "symmetrical" amp design? in the flagship line.

Even some of the RX-V line models appear to have symmetrical layout. The claimed benefits (on their website) are credible but I highly doubt that would translate into audible benefits based on bench test data of both flagship or near flagship units that adopted such layout and those that did not. I have to give Yamaha credit for doing it though, you don't get that from too many of their competitors. For the D&M models only their flag ship AVR-X8500H and the SR8012 have such symmetrical layout. Before the SR8012 that only just came out last year, you couldn't get it on any Marantz models.

 

[Phase 2]

Even some of the RX-V line models appear to have symmetrical layout. The claimed benefits (on their website) are credible but I highly doubt that would translate into audible benefits based on bench test data of both flagship or near flagship units that adopted such layout and those that did not. I have to give Yamaha credit for doing it though, you don't get that from too many of their competitors. For the D&M models only their flag ship AVR-X8500H and the SR8012 have such symmetrical layout. Before the SR8012 that only just came out last year, you couldn't get it on any Marantz models.

Thanks PENG!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even some of the RX-V line models appear to have symmetrical layout. The claimed benefits (on their website) are credible but I highly doubt that would translate into audible benefits based on bench test data of both flagship or near flagship units that adopted such layout and those that did not. I have to give Yamaha credit for doing it though, you don't get that from too many of their competitors. For the D&M models only their flag ship AVR-X8500H and the SR8012 have such symmetrical layout. Before the SR8012 that only just came out last year, you couldn't get it on any Marantz models.

One of these days when DIRAC is a separate component (instead of being forced into a Pre-pro),you will join the Dark Side.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...the lower end Yamaha receivers should be avoided...

Only for the Primary Component of your Main system.

But then again, most Audioholics wouldn't use anything less than a Yamaha 1000 or Denon 3000 series as their primary center piece.

If I am just using an AVR to power some small speakers for my Study Room, Bedroom, or Kitchen, I wouldn't hesitate for one second to get a Yamaha 485.

 

[Phase 2]

ADTG, you think TLS Guy will ever turn to the Dark side? Come to think of it has anyone seen him lately? Sure hope he ok.