Marantz SR6013 Vs Yamaha RX-A1080 AVENTAGE

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The Yamaha RX-A880, one model below A1080 I guess is not considered to be among the lower end Yamaha models. It has different DAC of a lower class than A1080, but if DAC as you all say is not making any difference in that level, I am wondering perhaps this is also enough for my needs, my Klipsch speakers are not that power demanding and this amp specs only 10W lower power than the model above, while it still has all other modern features and costs considerably less money. In fact I can currently find in German market very good deals for last year model A870 .
Unless you can find a review with bench testing that proves otherwise, I would normally avoid the A880 (since it is the A860 with two years of feature "updates"). However, since you have Klipsch speakers and assuming you intend to keep them for the long haul, I don't think you will have a conflict with the comparatively weak amp performance and the poor quality of the pre-outs is only relevant if you add external amps (which you shouldn't need with the Klipsch)

If you look at the review of the Denon AVR-X3300 (link below), Gene actually posted the Yamaha results in the power measurement table above the Denon's power measurement table. You will see that the Denon puts out over twice as much power into 5 channels for the 1kHz powersweep.

Yamaha's better stuff is great, but they "cheaped out" on the amp section on the A860 (and the big question is which others?)!
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
Does this mean D&M is a safer option than Yamaha in terms of sound performance (generally speaking)?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
At the upper end of the spectrum, its a wash in terms of sound quality. I don't know if Yamaha SQ suffers in their lower end gear, but once you cross a certain threshold, brand to brand, it really becomes a choice of aesthetics and usability/function/feature-set. (imho... ymmv)

That said, I'm a very happy (now) Marrantz SR6012 user. Had a bum digital board that took some work to identify... but once they did, its been solid ever since.

Peng is one of the top guys here, esp. when it comes to comparing the guts. I'm with him on his SR6013 preference. Perhaps the only other thing I would consider in that spot is the comparable Denon model.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Does this mean D&M is a safer option than Yamaha in terms of sound performance (generally speaking)?
They'll be different rather than one outperforming the other particularly....and most of the difference would be due to their particular dsp/eq/features you can use or not, or may have a preference for one flavor over the other. I've got three brands of avr in the house now and I really don't distinguish them except by their different dsp/eq/features....and I'd probably go with Denon for value over Marantz too (and two of mine are Denons).
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
I have no idea how Yamaha’s dsp/eq look like. I wrote what I like/don’t like in Marantz’s Audyssey. I would like though to know how the two brands compare in this. As for the rest of features I like DAB+ on Yamaha as well as its external design, while I also like google Assistant and AirPlay 2 on the new Marantz models. For the rest of features I do not know.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Since you have experience from both brands, would you mind to tell me which one you find better regarding the user friendliness and the menus (forget about the features)?
Personally, I like Yamaha better.

But they are equal in sound quality. The key is always in the setup.

Going from using Denon (AVP-A1HD, AVR-5308, and other 3000 and 4000 AVR series) for about 20 years to Yamaha was an easy transition. So they are probably more alike than they are different.

I don’t like any kind of room EQ. But I do use the parametric EQ on the Yamaha to boost the 20Hz, 40Hz, 60Hz, and 80Hz a little only on my Sub1 and Sub2. :D

I have better luck of HDMI compatibility and MusicCast (absolutely love) than with my Denon’s. I hated the AirPlay on my Denon for streaming music.

The iOS and Android apps for Yamaha (AV Controller and MusicCast) work 100% for me, which can’t be said of the Denon and Apple apps. The Denon remote app was pathetic for me.

So Yamaha just seems to work better for me.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, but I can’t help it since I think it’s so cool. I just watched the latest episode of Showtime’s “Billions”. Of all the boats he could be using, it was a bada$$ YAMAHA boat. It was funny how they showed a closeup of the “Yamaha” symbols on the boat and motors. It’s like they were advertising for Yamaha or something. Haha. :D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No, in fact I have never experienced Dolby Atmos yet. But I see nowadays more and more media like Netflix, iTunes store and Blu-rays support natively this format and since I am going to rebuild my HT setup due to my move, I found good Idea to upgrade to DA. The problem is I do not think I have enough space for more speakers to go for 5.1.4 setup. My couch is going to be attached to the back wall in the room, so no speakers can be placed enough behind the listening position.
I can say from experience that most of the Atmos I’ve seen from Netflix is like fake or something because I can hardly hear much overhead sound effects.

I’ve heard some awesome Atmos and DTSX sound effects, but they were from BluRay, not Netflix or Amazon.

I have 5.1.4 in a 26’ x 22’ x 14’ dedicated room. And in my experience of watching plenty of Atmos and DTSX movies, I think 5.1.2 will be just fine. They say you can’t get overhead panning from front to rear with 5.1.2, but based on my experience, you’re not missing much. I mean I haven’t seen too many overhead front-rear panning effects. Maybe one day I will, but not yet. Atmos has been out since 2013.

So........ it’s great if you can get 4 ceiling speakers, but if you can’t, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Yamaha RX-A880, one model below A1080 I guess is not considered to be among the lower end Yamaha models. It has different DAC of a lower class than A1080, but if DAC as you all say is not making any difference in that level, I am wondering perhaps this is also enough for my needs, my Klipsch speakers are not that power demanding and this amp specs only 10W lower power than the model above, while it still has all other modern features and costs considerably less money. In fact I can currently find in German market very good deals for last year model A870 .
When it comes to comparing any of these AVR, I would focus exactly 0.00% on the DAC section.

DAC is such a mature technology that even the DAC inside a $400 AVR sounds awesome.

If you have golden ears, you will hear all kind of things. But many of the members here don’t have golden ears. :D
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
Thank you all very much for your contribution.

I don't have any extraordinary type of hearing but I do think I have good ears. Perhaps I hear a little bit better than the average person (I am not that old anyway, 41 years old). For instance, I can hear the difference between mp3s 160kbps and 192kbps even through some small computer speakers, while I know many people who can't. The difference between 128kbps and 160 kbps mp3s is more than obvious to me, still there are people who can't tell the difference. To be honest at bit rates above 192kbps I can't really pick up much difference at least not through an average sound system.

Another example comes from my experience during audition when I was about to purchase my current speakers. The Klipsch I now have as a matter of fact were not at the top of my list. I was considering to buy some more expensive and better looking German Canton speakers which had excellent reviews. During audition at a store in a special isolated auditorium room comparing different speakers side by side in the same conditions, powered by the same amplifier, it was clear to my ears that the Klipsch had some advantage, very marginal though but it was there. I could simply hear more details in the sound at some specific instruments and frequencies compared to other speakers. I immediately changed my mind and ended up with the Klipsch Reference Premiere.

That's mainly the reason why I insist on sound fidelity. If there is any difference on how the one AV receiver sounds over the other and if the DAC plays any role on that, I want to know it, no matter if this difference is very small. If there is practically no difference unless you have super powers, then I will choose my next receiver based only on the features and price.

For the time being I lean towards the Marantz 6013 mostly because of the better pricing on German market pus the good reputation. However, I like a lot the look of the Yamaha Aventage models and I am still curious about the overall user experience they give compared to D&M. I do plan to use in my new setup 2 proper ceiling speakers for the Atmos (not firing up Atmos speakers), probably from the Klipsch in-ceiling Reference series. I do not see much chance for additional 2 Atmos at the back though.

Some more questions:

  • Is the parametric EQ on the Yamaha similar to the one from Audyssey via an app? Is it better/worse?
  • How MusicCast works exactly. Is it only for streaming music from the receiver to wireless speakers or you can also for stream music from wireless devices towards the AV receiver like AirPlay?
I generally like AirPlay basically because it is very convenient and is supported by many devices, mobile phones, iPads, Mac computers etc. The downside is you cannot stream high resolution FLAC audio files, they are automatically down-sampled. Is MusicCast better in that way? Anyway, I do not care much about AirPlay on the receiver, I have Apple TV 4K for AirPlay.

Thanks.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you all very much for your contribution.

I don't have any extraordinary type of hearing but I do think I have good ears. Perhaps I hear a little bit better than the average person (I am not that old anyway, 41 years old). For instance, I can hear the difference between mp3s 160kbps and 192kbps even through some small computer speakers, while I know many people who can't. The difference between 128kbps and 160 kbps mp3s is more than obvious to me, still there are people who can't tell the difference. To be honest at bit rates above 192kbps I can't really pick up much difference at least not through an average sound system.

Another example comes from my experience during audition when I was about to purchase my current speakers. The Klipsch I now have as a matter of fact were not at the top of my list. I was considering to buy some more expensive and better looking German Canton speakers which had excellent reviews. During audition at a store in a special isolated auditorium room comparing different speakers side by side in the same conditions, powered by the same amplifier, it was clear to my ears that the Klipsch had some advantage, very marginal though but it was there. I could simply hear more details in the sound at some specific instruments and frequencies compared to other speakers. I immediately changed my mind and ended up with the Klipsch Reference Premiere.

That's mainly the reason why I insist on sound fidelity. If there is any difference on how the one AV receiver sounds over the other and if the DAC plays any role on that, I want to know it, no matter if this difference is very small. If there is practically no difference unless you have super powers, then I will choose my next receiver based only on the features and price.

For the time being I lean towards the Marantz 6013 mostly because of the better pricing on German market pus the good reputation. However, I like a lot the look of the Yamaha Aventage models and I am still curious about the overall user experience they give compared to D&M. I do plan to use in my new setup 2 proper ceiling speakers for the Atmos (not firing up Atmos speakers),probably from the Klipsch in-ceiling Reference series. I do not see much chance for additional 2 Atmos at the back though.

Some more questions:

  • Is the parametric EQ on the Yamaha similar to the one from Audyssey via an app? Is it better/worse?
  • How MusicCast works exactly. Is it only for streaming music from the receiver to wireless speakers or you can also for stream music from wireless devices towards the AV receiver like AirPlay?
I generally like AirPlay basically because it is very convenient and is supported by many devices, mobile phones, iPads, Mac computers etc. The downside is you cannot stream high resolution FLAC audio files, they are automatically down-sampled. Is MusicCast better in that way? Anyway, I do not care much about AirPlay on the receiver, I have Apple TV 4K for AirPlay.

Thanks.
After reading this detailed post along with your previous ones, based on your need of only 5.1.2 in a small room and Klipsch ref premieres, you should do well saving money by going with a $599 or less avr-x3400h.

It may sound hard to believe, the 3400 sounded as good as my separates Marantz preamp/amp and CA/Halo A21 pair. Then I used REW/Umik mic to see what's going on, and found the FR were almost identical and the distortions were comparble. Speakers used were LS50 and R900.

I was not influenced by the graphs as I did that after all my listening tests were done.
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
After reading this detailed post along with your previous ones, based on your need of only 5.1.2 in a small room and Klipsch ref premieres, you should do well saving money by going with a $599 or less avr-x3400h.

It may sound hard to believe, the 3400 sounded as good as my separates Marantz preamp/amp and CA/Halo A21 pair. Then I used REW/Umik mic to see what's going on, and found the FR were almost identical and the distortions were comparble. Speakers used were LS50 and R900.

I was not influenced by the graphs as I did that after all my listening tests were done.
I guess you mean the new model avr-x3500h. There is no difference in price here between avr-x3400h and avr-x3500h.

With this Denon I only save around 200 bucks compared to SR6013 and 300 bucks compared to avr-x4500h and last year's Yamaha RX-A1070. I see the Denon x3500h lacks all advanced audio technologies found on the upper Denon models like DDSC, AL32 Processing etc. plus other technologies like IMAX Enhanced, Auro 3D etc. Are you sure I am not losing anything in sound quality compared to Marantz? I also find the plastic front face of the avr-x3500h terrible :)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I guess you mean the new model avr-x3500h. There is no difference in price here between avr-x3400h and avr-x3500h.

With this Denon I only save around 200 bucks compared to SR6013 and 300 bucks compared to avr-x4500h and last year's Yamaha RX-A1070. I see the Denon x3500h lacks all advanced audio technologies found on the upper Denon models like DDSC, AL32 Processing etc. plus other technologies like IMAX Enhanced, Auro 3D etc. Are you sure I am not losing anything in sound quality compared to Marantz? I also find the plastic front face of the avr-x3500h terrible :)
I forgot you were not in North America. In the US and Canada, the discontinued model tpically would sell for much less. The AVR-X3400H is practically the same as the X3500H except the IMAX feature, the web page thing and the phono stage.

It is getting hard to find as at the $599 brand new, they are disappearing faster as days go by.

You can see that at newegg.com, the price difference between the two is $400 before tax:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=12K-001H-002R1
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIABDX8CA4768&Description=avr-x3500h&cm_re=avr-x3500h-_-9SIABDX8CA4768-_-Product

You are correct that it does not have those features the X4400H/X4500H has and the distortions is the same as the SR6013, but not as low as that for the 4400/4500/6012/6013. To me, those things are nicer on paper, but like DACs, such minute difference on paper are not audible, unless you have the so called golden ears. Golden ears always work in sighted tests, when properly set up, they usually change color.:D

Since you obviously still have doubts about the potential sq differences between the models mentioned, and you seem to like the Marantz front face, then you really should stick with the SR6013, or the RX-A1080. With the 1080, I think chance is good that you may regret not having the flexibility to go 5.1.4. To me, .2 does not make a lot of sense unless the room is really small. Think about it, at the lower elevation you have 2 (not counting the center) in the front and 2 at the back, so why not do the same at the near ceiling height? Atmos speakers are not just about some ambient effect, but the more 3D like surround effect.
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
My listening/HT area is going to be around 4x4m. However this is just a part of a much bigger living room around 40 m2. I do not know how all this translates in feets.

It is not I wouldn’t like to go for a .4 setup, it’s just I do not know where to put the backs. If I squeeze them right at my back wall, they will be practically just above my head and I am afraid there will be no differentiation in the sound with the front Atmos. According to Dolby the front ceiling Atmos are placed just in front of the listening position left and right, which means for my case the back Atmos will not be more than a meter away from the front Atmos. I will have all 4 speakers above my head.
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
Wish I had them golden ears, lol. Anyways you picked a good person to chat with about AVR'S, PENG is one of the best, there are others not to take anything away from these guys but yeah they are that good they have the knowledge plus years of experience with this hobby.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
My listening/HT area is going to be around 4x4m. However this is just a part of a much bigger living room around 40 m2. I do not know how all this translates in feets.

It is not I wouldn’t like to go for a .4 setup, it’s just I do not know where to put the backs. If I squeeze them right at my back wall, they will be practically just above my head and I am afraid there will be no differentiation in the sound with the front Atmos. According to Dolby the front ceiling Atmos are placed just in front of the listening position left and right, which means for my case the back Atmos will not be more than a meter away from the front Atmos. I will have all 4 speakers above my head.
Just as a counterpoint, you could set up with front height, and top front as possible Atmos locations. I know I hear top front and top rear are perhaps most ideal, but I do agree that the .4 will offer a better environment. We all have to play with our rooms to achieve what we want. I vote for leaving yourself the option of being able to expand to 9 channels. :)
 
click

click

Audioholic Intern
One thing I didn't mention is my new house has an additional big open loft room, around 45m2 which at some point in the future could serve as a dedicated home cinema room. However, I do not see this happening in the near future. I think when the time comes for such a project I will anyway be looking for a new more modern receiver.
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
One thing I didn't mention is my new house has an additional big open loft room, around 45m2 which at some point in the future could serve as a dedicated home cinema room. However, I do not see this happening in the near future. I think when the time comes for such a project I will anyway be looking for a new more modern receiver.
Life is to short not to! ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
[QUOTE="click, post: 1311399, member: 88431"

  • Is the parametric EQ on the Yamaha similar to the one from Audyssey via an app? Is it better/worse? .[/QUOTE]

The Denons dont have parametric EQ last I saw like the Yamahas do (for manual use). YPAO is somewhat comparable to Audyssey, tho.
 

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