"Unbreaking America" - proposed concept on fixing our political system!

[Irvrobinson]

Corporate America has taken over America they pay absolutely no taxes. As far as corruption yeah organized crime they're just in legitimate business now.

Absolutely no taxes? Really? Are facts your friends?

 

[Trell]

Absolutely no taxes? Really? Are facts your friends?

Amazon made an $11.2bn profit in but paid no federal taxes

Sure, to be very pedantic and miss his point, they most likely did not pay absolutely no taxes. Your mega corporations are sobbing over having to pay taxes (35% ?) on profits earned overseas but not brought home.

Then we have tax abuses facilitated by EU members like Ireland to accomodate mega corporations. That pisses me off! Well., this is the rant thread ;-)

 

[Irvrobinson]

Amazon made an $11.2bn profit in but paid no federal taxes

Sure, to be very pedantic and miss his point, they most likely did not pay absolutely no taxes. Your mega corporations are sobbing over having to pay taxes (35% ?) on profits earned overseas but not brought home.

Then we have tax abuses facilitated by EU members like Ireland to accomodate mega corporations. That pisses me off! Well., this is the rant thread ;-)

You and Phase 2 are discussing two different topics. Phase 2 was referring to "corporate America" in general, and you're referring to Amazon specifically. In the case of Amazon, not only didn't they pay US federal income taxes for 2018, they got a refund. Corporate America as a whole are the beneficiaries of a myriad of loopholes and credits for specific industries, so many big companies don't pay much or anything in the way of federal taxes. GM and IBM, to name two examples.

In the case of Amazon, and this applies to GM and IBM too, they are taking advantage of an aspect of US tax law (which also applies to individuals, incidentally) that allows business losses and investment losses to be deducted from profits, and worse IMO, to be carried forward for years. For example, let's say that I sell two blocks of stock this year. On one block I make a $50,000 long-term capital gain, on the other a $30,000 long-term capital loss. My net taxable income from the two transactions will be $20,000, which means that US taxpayers subsidize business and investment losses. IMO, losses should not be subsidized, and taxes should be owed on all gains. And I say that as someone who takes advantage of subsidized losses nearly every year. And if your gains in any given year are less than your losses, you can carry the losses forward for years and get future tax credits. And that's what Amazon did.

And before anyone should be complaining about Amazon, they are compelled as a public company to exercise their fiduciary responsibilities to the best of professional practices, which means taking advantage of lawful and obvious tax breaks which benefit their shareholders. If Amazon management were to get idealistic and say that these tax breaks are unethical and refuse to take advantage of them, Amazon could be the target of a shareholder class action suit, and they almost certainly would be and lose.

(The famous case of Apple funneling profits through Ireland to get a lower tax rate is a different scenario. That was a case of Apple just being innovative, with the cooperation of a friendly Irish government. But they didn't have to do it, and could have deemed such a proposal too risky.)

IMO, US tax law is a mess of special interest credits, exemptions, and loopholes that should just be simplified and fixed. Changing rates is a secondary consideration, and rates could probably be lowered overall if we just stopped the madness. This is what annoys me about the current crop of Democrats - they make dumb-ass proposals that are intended to appeal to ignorant voters rather than solve real problems and get achievable results.

 

[Trell]

You and Phase 2 are discussing two different topics. Phase 2 was referring to "corporate America" in general, and you're referring to Amazon specifically. In the case of Amazon, not only didn't they pay US federal income taxes for 2018, they got a refund. Corporate America as a whole are the beneficiaries of a myriad of loopholes and credits for specific industries, so many big companies don't pay much or anything in the way of federal taxes. GM and IBM, to name two examples.

I just provided an example, of many, that taxation is more than a sore point for more than a few. Sorry, I could not resist

In the case of Amazon, and this applies to GM and IBM too, they are taking advantage of an aspect of US tax law (which also applies to individuals, incidentally) that allows business losses and investment losses to be deducted from profits, and worse IMO, to be carried forward for years. For example, let's say that I sell two blocks of stock this year. On one block I make a $50,000 long-term capital gain, on the other a $30,000 long-term capital loss. My net taxable income from the two transactions will be $20,000, which means that US taxpayers subsidize business and investment losses. IMO, losses should not be subsidized, and taxes should be owed on all gains. And I say that as someone who takes advantage of subsidized losses nearly every year. And if your gains in any given year are less than your losses, you can carry the losses forward for years and get future tax credits. And that's what Amazon did.

And before anyone should be complaining about Amazon, they are compelled as a public company to exercise their fiduciary responsibilities to the best of professional practices, which means taking advantage of lawful and obvious tax breaks which benefit their shareholders. If Amazon management were to get idealistic and say that these tax breaks are unethical and refuse to take advantage of them, Amazon could be the target of a shareholder class action suit, and they almost certainly would be and lose.

(The famous case of Apple funneling profits through Ireland to get a lower tax rate is a different scenario. That was a case of Apple just being innovative, with the cooperation of a friendly Irish government. But they didn't have to do it, and could have deemed such a proposal too risky.)

IMO, US tax law is a mess of special interest credits, exemptions, and loopholes that should just be simplified and fixed. Changing rates is a secondary consideration, and rates could probably be lowered overall if we just stopped the madness. This is what annoys me about the current crop of Democrats - they make dumb-ass proposals that are intended to appeal to ignorant voters rather than solve real problems and get achievable results.

What some of the companies with respect to taxes are doing is offensive.

 

[TankTop5]

I’m just jumping in where I feel
Like....

I’m extremely financially conservative but if you read that and think republican you are more than wrong!!!

We need to end corporate welfare first before we end social welfare (diminish). If a corporation can’t exist without government assistance it shouldn’t exist at all.

After that I want to end social welfare but that is a fantasy in reality. There will always be homeless, helpless and needy and there’s nothing we can do but help them.

Capitalism is the greatest mechanism of lifting people out of poverty the world has ever known and if that is eroded we will all suffer. The public outcry against capitalism is the greatest moronic crybaby’s syndrome the world has ever known and if modern progressives win the world will suffer like nothing we can imagine.

I would gladly trade progressivism for a classic Democrat like JFK in under a second but modern democrats are far flung lunatics. If you can Lester to any D 2020 candidate and relate you need to commit yourself to an insane antler. Bernie was on welfare into his 50’s, Beto thinks charity is listening to his speeches, everyone else thinks the green new deal is reasonable.

I’ll line up with you and agree that Trump has many flaws but everyone in the Democratic Party is pushing for 2020 is more than idiotic. Listening to the D 2020 hopefuls they sound like the plan to intentionally loose. They want to appear left of center to make Bernie sound centrist. They shot Biden and their runner up, Beto, shot himself today. In 2016 the D’s knew Bernie would loose so they ran Hillery. In 2020 the D’s will run Bernie, but a guy that was on welfare into his 50’s, sponsored over 300 bills, passed only 3 and two of those wire to rename post offices will get shredded by a Maverick like Trump.

Trumps supporters love the fact that he is kicking in the face of Washington insiders and don’t give a flying flip about his improprieties. The only people who care about the Mueller report are D’s, and if they think they are going to flip a single voter they are mistaken. On the other hand there are many centrists who will look at the 2020 D hopefuls and sadly shake their heads. If these clowns are the best the D party can offer up, the D party may want to slow down and consider its future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sholling]

1 in 5 children live in poverty, in the US,

I usually avoid political discussions but I'll make an exception just this one time. "Poverty" in the US us not like poverty in the rest of the world. Between public and private charity nobody in the USA needs to go hungry, in fact obesity is much a bigger problem. 98% of the "poor" own TVs - 65% have two, 78% have air conditioners, half own a stereo. The numbers below are 14 years old and I have no doubt that today 95% of poor people own a smartphone of some sort. In reality if you keep raising the definition of what is means to be poor to higher and higher standards of living you'll always have 20% living below the poverty line. The "poverty" industry whose careers depend on 20% "poverty" rates will see to it.

In this economy anybody willing to get off their duff and reliably show up for work can get a job and work their way up. Plumbing companies and electrical contractors are begging for apprentices ($80-100K careers) and even watchmaking is on a comeback with an estimated 40K openings in the US. Factories are begging for welding, machine operator, and machinist trainees and apprentices and can't find enough willing to put in the effort and able to do simple arithmetic. I've known a whole lot of poor in my 63 years and all of the able bodied poor that I've known were poor by choice. They just didn't want to put in the effort to learn a trade or reliably show up for work, not while they could get a government check or just get by working easy jobs. I'll give you two great current examples. I know a former plumbing trainee (2 years in) that gave it up for a minimum wage retail job because it's just easier work. On the other hand I know a young single mother with a HS education and no marketable skills that worked her way up to a retail store assistant manager in three years by working her butt off. She'll be a store manager and able to afford to buy herself a nice house within two years.

[/rant]

I'll go back to staying in the non-political discussions now.

https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/air-conditioning-cable-tv-and-xbox-what-poverty-the-united-states

 

[TheWarrior]

I usually avoid political discussions but I'll make an exception just this one time. "Poverty" in the US us not like poverty in the rest of the world. Between public and private charity nobody in the USA needs to go hungry, in fact obesity is much a bigger problem. 98% of the "poor" own TVs - 65% have two, 78% have air conditioners, half own a stereo. The numbers below are 14 years old and I have no doubt that today 95% of poor people own a smartphone of some sort. In reality if you keep raising the definition of what is means to be poor to higher and higher standards of living you'll always have 20% living below the poverty line. The "poverty" industry whose careers depend on 20% "poverty" rates will see to it.

In this economy anybody willing to get off their duff and reliably show up for work can get a job and work their way up. Plumbing companies and electrical contractors are begging for apprentices ($80-100K careers) and even watchmaking is on a comeback with an estimated 40K openings in the US. Factories are begging for welding, machine operator, and machinist trainees and apprentices and can't find enough willing to put in the effort and able to do simple arithmetic. I've known a whole lot of poor in my 63 years and all of the able bodied poor that I've known were poor by choice. They just didn't want to put in the effort to learn a trade or reliably show up for work, not while they could get a government check or just get by working easy jobs. I'll give you two great current examples. I know a former plumbing trainee (2 years in) that gave it up for a minimum wage retail job because it's just easier work. On the other hand I know a young single mother with a HS education and no marketable skills that worked her way up to a retail store assistant manager in three years by working her butt off. She'll be a store manager and able to afford to buy herself a nice house within two years.

[/rant]

I'll go back to staying in the non-political discussions now.

https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/air-conditioning-cable-tv-and-xbox-what-poverty-the-united-states

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That was a pretty callous response to the fact, that still remains, 1 in 5 children live in poverty in this country.

Millions of children do not know where their next meal is coming from, but because they have a fridge and some basic amenities common to 21st century homes, you think they're bums. But again, we're talking about CHILDREN - guess we better lax those labor laws too huh?

 

[highfigh]

What some of the companies with respect to taxes are doing is offensive.[/QUOTE]

While large corporations should pay taxes, how should their growth affect the tax due? What if they go on a campaign to grow the company by building more distribution centers? That's a capital expense and is something that can be used to defray tax liability over many years. It also depreciates over time, the amount of which depends on the method chosen. I drove near a future Amazon DC yesterday- it's more than a million square feet. They're spending a lot of money- much more than companies like Home Depot and if they weren't building so much, they WOULD be paying more tax.

Like it or not, Amazon is pumping a lot of money into the US economy.

 

[R.Elder]

Warrior does food stamps and other assistance count as income? Isn’t it presumptive to assume all those children are starving (which is what you’re implying by saying they don’t know where their next meals coming from).

I’m sure you’re familiar with child services ... if those kids was being abused (starvation) they would be taken away. I think you’re exaggerating about the plight of American children. I’m confident the number of children who don’t know where their next meal is coming from is far far below 1 in 5.

 

[R.Elder]

One last thing... you’re saying their parents would rather have a TV than feed their kid. That’s a matter of allocation of funds not necessarily an indication that they can’t afford but rather they choose not to.

 

[highfigh]

That was a pretty callous response to the fact, that still remains, 1 in 5 children live in poverty in this country.

Millions of children do not know where their next meal is coming from, but because they have a fridge and some basic amenities common to 21st century homes, you think they're bums. But again, we're talking about CHILDREN - guess we better lax those labor laws too huh?

The children who don't know where their next meal will come from- how many have two parents, how many of their parents have a job, how many are addicts or criminals and how many made terrible decisions that led to their position in life?

A lot. If someone has any marketable job skills and/or the ability to learn, they can get a job unless they just don't want to or they have too much time being dedicated to caring for their kids, parents, etc.

The education systems in this country is not what it was. Sometimes, the problems are on a local or state level, but kids are taught to pass tests, not learn useful skills. Like counting change, dealing with people and not being criminals. Some people can't get out of their own way.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What some of the companies with respect to taxes are doing is offensive.

While large corporations should pay taxes, how should their growth affect the tax due? What if they go on a campaign to grow the company by building more distribution centers? That's a capital expense and is something that can be used to defray tax liability over many years. It also depreciates over time, the amount of which depends on the method chosen. I drove near a future Amazon DC yesterday- it's more than a million square feet. They're spending a lot of money- much more than companies like Home Depot and if they weren't building so much, they WOULD be paying more tax.

Like it or not, Amazon is pumping a lot of money into the US economy.

Agreed. Depreciation is another thing altogether, and reduces effective profitability. Knowingly losing money to fuel growth, on the other hand, which is a common start-up strategy, should not IMO be subsidized by taxpayers. Loss carry-forward is essentially another bailout for GM, which is quite profitable now.

 

[highfigh]

Agreed. Depreciation is another thing altogether, and reduces effective profitability. Knowingly losing money to fuel growth, on the other hand, which is a common start-up strategy, should not IMO be subsidized by taxpayers. Loss carry-forward is essentially another bailout for GM, which is quite profitable now.

OK, but if we look at the 556K jobs Amazon provides (and growing), the construction jobs that are supported through building, additions and other improvements, property tax revenue (assuming they didn't do a TIF) and the tax revenue from all of the people involved, I would say it's better than losing manufacturing overseas.

It's all a balancing act- if they pay tax, they don't have as much for spending on growth- I don't know how much they would have paid on net income, but I doubt it would have been $50 Million, based on their spending. I do like seeing that large corporations are spending money in the US, but the lack of people in the skilled trades is driving the cost higher through higher than normal wages.

 

[Irvrobinson]

OK, but if we look at the 556K jobs Amazon provides (and growing),the construction jobs that are supported through building, additions and other improvements, property tax revenue (assuming they didn't do a TIF) and the tax revenue from all of the people involved, I would say it's better than losing manufacturing overseas.

It's all a balancing act- if they pay tax, they don't have as much for spending on growth- I don't know how much they would have paid on net income, but I doubt it would have been $50 Million, based on their spending. I do like seeing that large corporations are spending money in the US, but the lack of people in the skilled trades is driving the cost higher through higher than normal wages.

Let's see. Amazon's taxable net profit in 2018 was $11.2 billion, which means that was after depreciation. The corporate tax rate is 21%. So if we eliminated all of the credits, especially loss carry forward, they would owe $2.35B in federal taxes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/15/amazon-will-pay-0-in-federal-taxes-this-year.html

 

[R.Elder]

Let's see. Amazon's taxable net profit in 2018 was $11.2 billion, which means that was after depreciation. The corporate tax rate is 21%. So if we eliminated all of the credits, especially loss carry forward, they would owe $2.35B in federal taxes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/15/amazon-will-pay-0-in-federal-taxes-this-year.html

As a business owner I can tell you all taxes are passed down. Amazons customers will pay for taxes and those profits will mostly stay fixed or continue to rise.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As a business owner I can tell you all taxes are passed down. Amazons customers will pay for taxes and those profits will mostly stay fixed or continue to rise.

Having worked in the high-tech corporate world for decades, I know it's not that simple. For starters, the lack of tax payments is allowing Amazon to spend on other things, like employee salaries and benefits, speculative projects, acquisitions, low introductory prices for new products, and on and on. Some of these items might be cut, or at least not grow so fast. Amazon might raise the bar on anticipated returns from acquisitions. (I can think of a couple of that were dubious.) And they might raise some prices, like for Amazon Prime, which they do every year, but remember that Amazon's biggest profit generator by far is AWS, and they can't just raise prices because they have a lot of very rich and very aggressive competition in that space.

Like I said before, I think loss carry forward is just a wasteful federal subsidy for unprofitable investments and the Silicon Valley growth at any cost mentality. Uber and Lyft may not pay federal income taxes in my lifetime.

 

[sholling]

That was a pretty callous response to the fact, that still remains, 1 in 5 children live in poverty in this country.

Millions of children do not know where their next meal is coming from, but because they have a fridge and some basic amenities common to 21st century homes, you think they're bums. But again, we're talking about CHILDREN - guess we better lax those labor laws too huh?

This is a myth, and simply not true. There was a time, decades ago that it was true, but those days are long gone. These days it's just propaganda spread by the social welfare industry to justify their jobs and socialist teachers/professors to sell socialism to the gullible. Between food stamps, WIC, school lunches, and church group food giveaways no child in America need go hungry. The fact is that adult and childhood obesity are a much bigger problems in poor households than hunger. Unfortunately some drug addicted poor do sell a portion of their government aid to pay for drugs but throwing more money at that problem just goes to pay for more drugs not more food.

As for child labor laws, I had a job all through high school and I managed to graduate with not only a far better understanding of mathematics, chemistry, literature, civics, personal finance, and history than today's average HS grad, but with a trade and good well established work habits that allowed me to hit the ground running. I also worked my way through college and graduated with a degree in something useful and marketable and no debt. Back then lots of HS kids had summer jobs in the food, construction, or auto repair industries and graduated with good solid work habits and a resume and a car they paid for themselves. The fact remains that any able bodied person of reasonable intelligence can work their way into the middle class if they are willing to put in the effort and take less than glamorous jobs. Sadly, way too many people aren't willing to put in that effort or get their hands dirty. And others decided to spend 4-6 years and $100K in debt getting a college degree in thumb twiddling and whining about the successful only to find themselves barely qualified for a job at Starbucks. Neither are the fault of the successful or successful companies and their working class IRA and 401k investors.

 

[highfigh]

Let's see. Amazon's taxable net profit in 2018 was $11.2 billion, which means that was after depreciation. The corporate tax rate is 21%. So if we eliminated all of the credits, especially loss carry forward, they would owe $2.35B in federal taxes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/15/amazon-will-pay-0-in-federal-taxes-this-year.html

The link I saw before didn't show this much profit, but the one I just checked does- I don't like the refund, though. People who don't pay don't usually get that.

Even so, it's good that the tax code allows for incentives- if everyone paid the same rate, there would be a huge stagnation unless the products or services were irresistible and profitable- at that point, people who wanted to start those businesses would borrow and use their own money to startup and reap the benefits later.

As far as carryover loss, I was able to use that when I bought a vehicle for my business- the IRS had announced the accelerated write-off plan to take the whole deduction in one year, but I couldn't use it, even though I paid cash for it. It was 2011 and the economy wasn't fully recovered and my business was down, but I needed a different vehicle, so I was able to use that write-off for five years. Compared to Amazon and its expenses, I'm a zit, but they're spending a lot of money, in spite of AOC not understanding the arrangement with NYC for the facility that won't be built.

 

[highfigh]

Having worked in the high-tech corporate world for decades, I know it's not that simple. For starters, the lack of tax payments is allowing Amazon to spend on other things, like employee salaries and benefits, speculative projects, acquisitions, low introductory prices for new products, and on and on. Some of these items might be cut, or at least not grow so fast. Amazon might raise the bar on anticipated returns from acquisitions. (I can think of a couple of that were dubious.) And they might raise some prices, like for Amazon Prime, which they do every year, but remember that Amazon's biggest profit generator by far is AWS, and they can't just raise prices because they have a lot of very rich and very aggressive competition in that space.

Like I said before, I think loss carry forward is just a wasteful federal subsidy for unprofitable investments and the Silicon Valley growth at any cost mentality. Uber and Lyft may not pay federal income taxes in my lifetime.

Then, there's Solyndra and a lot of the bailout. That was disgusting.

 

[TheWarrior]

The children who don't know where their next meal will come from- how many have two parents, how many of their parents have a job, how many are addicts or criminals and how many made terrible decisions that led to their position in life?

A lot. If someone has any marketable job skills and/or the ability to learn, they can get a job unless they just don't want to or they have too much time being dedicated to caring for their kids, parents, etc.

The education systems in this country is not what it was. Sometimes, the problems are on a local or state level, but kids are taught to pass tests, not learn useful skills. Like counting change, dealing with people and not being criminals. Some people can't get out of their own way.

Yeah, I find this 'poor hating' theme pretty detestable.

Counting change is taught in elementary school. Socialization comes from going to school. Yet we pay teachers nothing.

The education systems in this country ARE not funded well enough, clearly. In knowing that, I don't know why you would then continue to punish the children of under-educated parents. You know, the ones that were taught abstinence only?