Crown amp utilizing all its power?

[GrimSurfer]

Got something to back that general accusation up about "a lot of class D bla bla"? Lets just go back to class A and become ostriches.

Truth is progressive. Delusion is oppressive.

 

[lovinthehd]

Truth is progressive. Delusion is oppressive.

Exactly why your class D nonsense doesn't make much sense lately.

 

[lovinthehd]

Grim just what amp have you settled on that meets all your stringent criteria?

 

[JerryLove]

Close enough, except for the power line explanation (that's due to increasing the voltage and dropping the amperage so that the transmission lines can be efficiently sized... high currents (amperes) require larger gauge wire. Otherwise, resistance rises due to hear and power transfer is limited).

Both statements are accurate.

But no matter how large the cable, the lower the current, the less the loss... so you *still* want the highest voltage you can reasonably put down the line.

So unless you're running audio cables all over long distances, why require something with 2 volt output or input? There's no reason. In fact, it complicates things because matching components (pro and consumer) can lead to problems (including an increase in noise). So there's no real gain (pun)!

I agree. I most consumer applications the advantages of 2v are academic rather than audible. What's your point?

The same thing with XLR connectors. While the do offer real benefits, using them in a mix of gear (pro and consumer) can lead to ground loops. Why? Because pro gear is grounded, most consumer gear uses phase plugs because it is double insulated.

Yes. XLR is better, but not so much better in consumer use that consumer gear is forced to switch. Again: what's your point?

Anyone with a rudimentary appreciation of how much power is needed to achieve reference levels knows that you don't need hundreds of watts to drive the vast majority full range speakers to fill the vast majority of home spaces with deafening sound. So if you don't have large distances to cover between components or require balanced connectors, why do you use pro gear?

Because it was inexpensive and available and capable of doing the job at hand. I mean: you can go pay a lot more for the Mark Levonsons rather than the Crown so that you get that spiffy logo; if that's your thing.

It seems like you've just agreed that pro gear is better (while arguing that said better is not necessarily a suseful improvement over sufficient).

What happened to your claim that pro amps make speakers sound bad when listening to music? I'm still waiting on support for your base claim.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Because it was inexpensive and available and capable of doing the job at hand. I mean: you can go pay a lot more for the Mark Levonsons rather than the Crown so that you get that spiffy logo; if that's your thing.

Figured it was price. I find the "cheap is good, expensive is bad" mantra on AH to be rather farcical. "Good is good and bad is bad" seems so much more logical, don't you think?

most consumer applications the advantages of 2v are academic rather than audible. What's your point?.

If you feed a lower voltage signal (like from an AVR or consumer pre-amp) into a pro amplifier set up for 2v input, you won't achieve the gain you're paying for. Also, you'll just be amplifying the noise floor or the input signal. I just don't see any value in that.

Yes. XLR is better, but not so much better in consumer use that consumer gear is forced to switch. Again: what's your point?

So you're paying for a capability in an amp (XLR) that you can't exploit with most consumer gear. Also, since XLR is electrically connected to chassis ground on pro gear, you're creating a dangerous situation if you connect XLR to consumer gear, which is double insulated. Shorts in the pro gear could energize the consumer gear chassis, which is not grounded. But, hey, if you want hair like Orphan Annie, be my guest...

It seems like you've just agreed that pro gear is better (while arguing that said better is not necessarily a suseful improvement over sufficient).

Nope. Never said that. It is rare to find pro gear that has lower distortion and SNR than consumer gear... because noise isn't as big a concern in public spaces. A quiet room is around 30 dB. A public space is much higher.

Oh... and if you want me to provide examples, you first.

What happened to your claim that pro amps make speakers sound bad when listening to music? I'm still waiting on support for your base claim.

I don't know what happened to it, Jerry. Probably because I didn't say it. Somebody else did.

So you're going to be waiting a very long time for me to respond on a point I didn't make.

 

[JerryLove]

I'm going to have to go through these one at a time.

Figured it was price.

This sentence fragment is unhelpful and, I suspect, intended to imply a number of falsehoods (so a straw man argument)

I find the "cheap is good, expensive is bad" mantra on AH to be rather farcical.

No such mantra exists.

"Good is good and bad is bad" seems so much more logical, don't you think?

That would be a tautology.

If you feed a lower voltage signal (like from an AVR or consumer pre-amp) into a pro amplifier set up for 2v input, you won't achieve the gain you're paying for.

You'll achieve the exact same gain. The increase from source is identical regardless of the voltage of the source.
https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/7454c056b53e8a57e51cc17f4ed7eabe25ae1207

Also, you'll just be amplifying the noise floor or the input signal. I just don't see any value in that.

All amplifiers amplify the noise floor. You've just argued against amplifiers.

So you're paying for a capability in an amp (XLR) that you can't exploit with most consumer gear.

Try really hard to remember your (still unsupported) assertion that a pro amp cannot be good for consumer use because it's not designed with consumer use in mind. You must show that XLR is inferior in consumer use to support your point. You've done no such thing.

Also, since XLR is electrically connected to chassis ground on pro gear, you're creating a dangerous situation if you connect XLR to consumer gear, which is double insulated. Shorts in the pro gear could energize the consumer gear chassis, which is not grounded. But, hey, if you want hair like Orphan Annie, be my guest...

Of course consumer gear is grounded. Where do you think issues with ground loops come from. Basically all electronics are grounded.

Nope. Never said that. It is rare to find pro gear that has lower distortion and SNR than consumer gear... because noise isn't as big a concern in public spaces. A quiet room is around 30 dB. A public space is much higher.

Oh... and if you want me to provide examples, you first.

Since consumer gear is regularly measured to 10% THD, and since I've already linked you to this amp's 0.1% THD.

Would a McIntosh count as "good"? https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements

How about a Krell? https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-50s-power-amplifier-measurements

Emotiva? https://www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurements

So "pro-audio" is low "resolution" and low "qualty"? Care to support? I can name a pro speaker or two we can use as reference if you like.

Sure. Easy.

It's designed for a different set of conditions than home use. Want proof? It (public address) is in Crown's product literature.

What happened to your claim that pro amps make speakers sound bad when listening to music? I'm still waiting on support for your base claim.

I don't know what happened to it, Jerry. Probably because I didn't say it. Somebody else did.

So you're going to be waiting a very long time for me to respond on a point I didn't make.

That "someone else" is logged in as you it seems. You know: unless you are saying "low resolution" and "low quality" don't indicate something "sounds bad".

 

[GrimSurfer]

I didn't say pro amps made speakers sound bad. I said many pro amps had higher distortion, noise. I have been pretty clear on this point, so don't add what you think you read.

Mc, Krell, Emotiva ha ha. Is that your definition of good AB? You gotta get out more. You fancy the glitzy stuff eh? You missed Pass and D'agos... and the rest of the glam-whore end of the market.

Consumer gear, the good stuff (not that utter $hit that some AVR people tout on this forum or the poncey $hite the audiophile mags seem to love) measure output in RMS, all channels driven, at or just below clipping. Just so ya know...

I'm not here to change your mind. In my view, you appear like the lowest priced stuff that delivers the most watts/dollar. You're old enough to know better but you don't, so that's that.

Enjoy your "happy meal". Just don't waste a lot of ink bragging it up on anything more than caloric value. People who know better will think you a bit of a lightweight... even if they don't say so.

 

[highfigh]

What kind of room is it in? Some rooms like family rooms, living rooms have to have 20A breakers on outlets

Where does the NEC show this? I work on homes that are old, new and everywhere in between and have never seen a 20A outlet.

 

[JerryLove]

But the 1 negative point about DC300 I recall was its output stage topology being quasi-complimentary and for critical home listening applications didn't sound that good..

Because a quasi-complementary topology generated alot of IM distortion...
Very audible when played through high resolution, quality loudspeakers.. But for pro-audio applications that was more based on high SPL & reliability, IM distortion was a minor concern..

Bingo!

So you agreedd that the DC300 "generated alot of IM distortion...Very audible when played through high resolution, quality loudspeakers"

But you didn't say "I didn't say pro amps made speakers sound bad."

I said many pro amps had higher distortion, noise.

But higher distortion, noise doesn't sound bad coming out of speakers?

When I asked MCode "So "pro-audio" is low "resolution" and low "qualty"? Care to support? " You responded.

Sure. Easy.

So "low resolution" and "low quality" doesn't sound bad coming out of speakers?

I can go on like this for some time... but you've clearly asserted that the audio performance if amps described as "PA amps" is inferior in a "very audible" way without ever supporting it.

Mc, Krell, Emotiva ha ha. Is that your definition of good AB? You gotta get out more. You fancy the glitzy stuff eh? You missed Pass and D'agos... and the rest of the glam-whore end of the market.

Dan D’Agos-tino founded Krell. So you are saying I'm wrong for mentioning Krell and missed Krell?

Pass Labs's numbers don't look any better: https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa305-power-amplifier-measurements

Are you just trolling at this point?

 

[JerryLove]

Where does the NEC show this? I work on homes that are old, new and everywhere in between and have never seen a 20A outlet.

Would you neccessairily put on a 20A outlet simply because you had a 20A circuit?

The NEMA 5-20 socet accepts NEMA 5-15 plugs... so why not a 5-15 socket (on the idea that no single item will pull 20 amps)?

I mean: the breaker box would be the spot to check; wouldn't it?

 

[highfigh]

Would you neccessairily put on a 20A outlet simply because you had a 20A circuit?

The NEMA 5-20 socet accepts NEMA 5-15 plugs... so why not a 5-15 socket (on the idea that no single item will pull 20 amps)?

I mean: the breaker box would be the spot to check; wouldn't it?

Well, if I had actually read the post correctly......

I'll have to look at the next house, later- I need to work in the basement near the breaker panel, anyway. I don't remember hearing that living room breakers are required to be 20A- I would hope the wire is up-rated, too and I doubt any inspector would want to see 14ga on a 20A breaker, although I have been seeing more 12ga used for just about everything. It makes sense, though- why not provide a margin of safety?

 

[cameron paterson]

Just wondering... should i be using 12ga or 10ga wire to run the Crown 2500 to the 18"" sub? Its about a 20 foot run.

 

[everettT]

Just wondering... should i be using 12ga or 10ga wire to run the Crown 2500 to the 18"" sub? Its about a 20 foot run.

Is it 2ohm or 4ohm. If 2 Ohm 12 gauge max length is 30'.

 

[cameron paterson]

It is bridged at 4ohms. Its a 2ohm DVC subwoofer. What does 2ohm have to do with this? Are you looking at the output at 2ohms?

 

[everettT]

It is bridged at 4ohms. Its a 2ohm DVC subwoofer. What does 2ohm have to do with this? Are you looking at the output at 2ohms?

Ohms is tied to length and gauge

 

[JerryLove]

The chart: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Basically: the impedence of the wire should not exceed 5% of the rated impedance of the system.

If you use maths (rather than the chart): remember that the wire is twice as long as you think it is; because the signal makes a circuit down one wire in the pair and back up the other one.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Where does the NEC show this? I work on homes that are old, new and everywhere in between and have never seen a 20A outlet.

It needs to be a 20A breaker. In the code when I built my house in the 90s.

 

[cameron paterson]

So 4ohm bridged how long can a 12ga run?

 

[lovinthehd]

So 4ohm bridged how long can a 12ga run?

Did you look at the linked wire table?

 

[highfigh]

It needs to be a 20A breaker. In the code when I built my house in the 90s.

Where? I looked at the breaker panel in a condo yesterday- it was built in 2003 and most of the breakers are 15A.

As I wrote, if the wiring is able to handle 20A, I wouldn't mind having that in my house, which was built in 1946 and has Aluminum wiring, done badly.