Crown amp utilizing all its power?

Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
^^ Agreed. My Crown XLS 2502 is very quiet. The only thing I have noticed is a very slight hiss at idle, but in no way does it affect playback of music.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Do ya mean PAs (Pro amps) are better than consumer amps when its comes to deliver more power? are they better in stability and performance in FLAT signal?

I have bought one crown cts 600 to power a 450wrms front speaker (HT) but lill shaky to try it.. if it should work or how it work ... a new experience might be.. :rolleyes:!!
The CTS 600 amps are apparently class AB+B design. For pro-amps, I would stick with their class D amps or QSC's class AB amps.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
The CTS 600 amps are apparently class AB+B design. For pro-amps, I would stick with their class D amps or QSC's class AB amps.
I'm honestly rather confused by the literature on this amp:
  • Legendary Crown class-I (BCA) and AB+B output topologies offer the best in amplifier reliability
What does "and" mean here? And why would someone tack a class B amp on a class AB amp?

I looked up Class I, and it seems to be a fusion of Class D and AB http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/137234.pdf
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I have a Crown XLS 2500 amp powering an 18" subwoofer. Since normal wall outlets cant deliver more than about 1,700 watts are the other 800 watts obsolete? I have the amp to an outlet that is only being used by this amp. Why spend the extra money for the 2500 when you can get the 1500 for so much cheaper?
What kind of room is it in? Some rooms like family rooms, living rooms have to have 20A breakers on outlets
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
It's a Class D amp, so it's fair to say that it can't sustain any more than 1600W of total output power with zero overhead. (Assuming an amplifier power efficiency of 90%, available electrical supply of 120V, 15A). It might be able to briefly exceed this level, given enough onboard power storage (I.e. capacitors).

But this is all theoretical. The owner's manual doesn't actually say how much current the amp draws. 90% efficiency is quite high, and the amp might not be this efficient. This makes it impossible to say, with any degree of certainty, what the amp might be capable of sustaining.

Now people are going to jump on me here, but Crown does say that this amp is specifically for PA systems. I think that some might assume that this includes the broadcast of music. The manual doesn't say anything that I could find to resolve this ambiguity.

Obviously, a person talking and a band playing music are going to be quite different in terms of demand... and this will mean much different load being placed on the amp. Not to mention that you plan to use this to power a narrow band driver (sub).

Lots of unknowns, potential divergence in designed use vs. actual use, and being used in a very specific portion of the audible range.

Your guess is as good as mine. My advice is to call Crown and discuss your intended use and see what they have to say...
Ha ha. @CB22 just rated the above post as useless.

Come on @CB22, you can be more critical than that, man! Point out any mistakes or untruths in the post...
Prove me wrong. Say something original, which might benefit others considering this product.

We're here to have a discussion, not to accumulate gold stars on social media.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm honestly rather confused by the literature on this amp:
  • Legendary Crown class-I (BCA) and AB+B output topologies offer the best in amplifier reliability
What does "and" mean here? And why would someone tack a class B amp on a class AB amp?

I looked up Class I, and it seems to be a fusion of Class D and AB http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/137234.pdf
Agreed, the description is confusing, but the downloadable cut sheet is clear, that the CTS 600 and 1200 are AB+B, "multi mode". That, to me, means AB up to a certain point, that switch to B, probably done (just my guess) via a bias controlled scheme based on some sort of feedback. It's the B part that I am concern about audible crossover distortions that Vacas might be hearing at higher ouput levels.

The CTS 2000/3000 are what they called, and what you cited, class I.
 
CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
Ha ha. @CB22 just rated the above post as useless.

Come on @CB22, you can be more critical than that, man! Point out any mistakes or untruths in the post...
Prove me wrong. Say something original, which might benefit others considering this product.

We're here to have a discussion, not to accumulate gold stars on social media.
Your implying that this not a good amp bc it designed for live sound. Sounds kind of dumb to me. Sorry if I've offended your delicate sensibilities. Got a friend with 3 of these in his system and they sound great.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Your implying that this not a good amp bc it designed for live sound. Sounds kind of dumb to me. Sorry if I've offended your delicate sensibilities. Got a friend with 3 of these in his system and they sound great.
I didn't imply anything. Just used what was written in (and omitted from) Crown product literature.

No offence taken by your rating at all. I was expecting something more substantive, but instead you offered something amusingly shallow. Made me chuckle... thanks.

Sorry if my post offended you on your friend's behalf. Suggest you or he take this up with Crown.

Quick... there's another fire to put out:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/crown-amplifiers-vs-other-amps-in-the-audiophile-world.84943/page-8#post-1306888
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Your implying that this not a good amp bc it designed for live sound. Sounds kind of dumb to me. Sorry if I've offended your delicate sensibilities. Got a friend with 3 of these in his system and they sound great.
I'm using pro amps in two of my systems. One is just subs currently with Crown 2502s , but they are crossed very high and have no issues with either. One of the two channels is QSC DCA series which is AB output at 22lbs 300 wpc 8ohms @ .03% thd full band,
Distortion (SMPTE-IM) .01%.

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1622/
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I'm using pro amps in two of my systems. One is just subs currently with Crown 2502s , but they are crossed very high and have no issues with either. One of the two channels is QSC DCA series which is AB output at 22lbs 300 wpc @ .03% thd full band,
Distortion (SMPTE-IM) .01%.

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/dca-1622/
A lot of Class D distortion occurs at the upper frequencies. They also have a high power factor. These attributes work really well with subs anywhere.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
A lot of Class D distortion occurs at the upper frequencies. They also have a high power factor. These attributes work really well with subs anywhere.
The maximum usable output frequency of a class D amp is determined by the switching rate of the circuitry. (there's more than a passing similarity to sampling rate on CDs). The lower the top frequency you want to produce, the cheaper/easier the amplifier is to build. This, combined with their high efficiency and the high power demands of LF sound have resulted in Class D first appearing heavily in subs.

But I see no indication that modern classD switches aren't more than fast enough to reproduce 20-20k without audible issue. I think the industry is seeing the same which is why you are seeing more and more movement to class D amps and their variants.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
A lot of Class D distortion occurs at the upper frequencies. They also have a high power factor. These attributes work really well with subs anywhere.
I understand that was an issue with a lot in the past, not so much with many of the newer ones. After 10kh not much of an issue. The QSC is hybrid and it drives my salks beautifully.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I understand that was an issue with a lot in the past, not so much with many of the newer ones. After 10kh not much of an issue. The QSC is hybrid and it drives my salks beautifully.
Ever wonder this might be the reason it's a hybrid?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Ever wonder this might be the reason it's a hybrid?
Crossed my mind. ATIs Ncore is a class D that measure extremely well.

The output stage can always be manipulated to achieve better results, but do believe the Crowns have no audible issues ( at least not with any loads if heard).
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Ever wonder this might be the reason it's a hybrid?
Ever wonder if the reason is because it's silver?

Or perhaps because it's 2v internally rather than 1v like consumer audio?

What's awesome about wondering is, if you never check to see if you are right; you can move on to even more wondering.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ever wonder if the reason is because it's silver?

Or perhaps because it's 2v internally rather than 1v like consumer audio?

What's awesome about wondering is, if you never check to see if you are right; you can move on to even more wondering.
And why do you think that's 2 volt? There is a reason for using higher voltages in pro audio... and it's not gain.

Geez, do you go out of your way to avoid thinking about this stuff or what?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
And why do you think that's 2 volt? There is a reason for using higher voltages in pro audio... and it's not gain.

Geez, do you go out of your way to avoid thinking about this stuff or what?
Primarily because of travel distance.

Electric dissipation to heat through a wire is a function of the voltage (among other factors). This is why powerlines are run at extremely high voltages.

In consumer gear: interconnect are generally quite short; and 1v gear is cheaper to built (There's also likely some historical "how it was already done" elements involved).

This is also why professional interconnects have interference rejection (via an inverted signal path in XLR) and consumer does not. While XLR is, simply put, better (as is 2v operation); it's also more expensive and unnecessary in most home applications.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Primarily because of travel distance.

Electric dissipation to heat through a wire is a function of the voltage (among other factors). This is why powerlines are run at extremely high voltages.

In consumer gear: interconnect are generally quite short; and 1v gear is cheaper to built (There's also likely some historical "how it was already done" elements involved).

This is also why professional interconnects have interference rejection (via an inverted signal path in XLR) and consumer does not. While XLR is, simply put, better (as is 2v operation); it's also more expensive and unnecessary in most home applications.
Close enough, except for the power line explanation (that's due to increasing the voltage and dropping the amperage so that the transmission lines can be efficiently sized... high currents (amperes) require larger gauge wire. Otherwise, resistance rises due to hear and power transfer is limited).

So unless you're running audio cables all over long distances, why require something with 2 volt output or input? There's no reason. In fact, it complicates things because matching components (pro and consumer) can lead to problems (including an increase in noise). So there's no real gain (pun)!

The same thing with XLR connectors. While the do offer real benefits, using them in a mix of gear (pro and consumer) can lead to ground loops. Why? Because pro gear is grounded, most consumer gear uses phase plugs because it is double insulated.

Ground loops can sometimes be resolved through the use of a ground lift switch, but doing this on pro gear increases the shock hazard because an active ground pin is an essential safety feature in gear that is not double insulated.

Anyone with a rudimentary appreciation of how much power is needed to achieve reference levels knows that you don't need hundreds of watts to drive the vast majority full range speakers to fill the vast majority of home spaces with deafening sound. So if you don't have large distances to cover between components or require balanced connectors, why do you use pro gear?

No need to answer. It's a useful rhetorical question for other readers to ask themselves when shopping for gear.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Might also see if a 20A circuit adds a little more "utilization" of power for the amp over a 15A circuit....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
A lot of Class D distortion occurs at the upper frequencies. They also have a high power factor. These attributes work really well with subs anywhere.
Got something to back that general accusation up about "a lot of class D bla bla"? Lets just go back to class A and become ostriches.
 
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