Differences on ported and sealed subs

[KEW]

So I just got off the phone with SVS, was talking a good hour or so (need to get my run in now). I sent pictures of my room, and he said it's probably around 3,000 cubic feet and suggested the two PB2000s and eventually the center channel to go with it. I asked him about the SVSPB Ultra 16, and he said it would crank and sound great, but I'd have to turn it down significantly. I also asked him if I turned it down, how would it compare to say dual PB2000s? He still seemed to think the PB2000s would be more balanced and sound better. In essence, he thinks the SVSPB16 is overkill for my room. He also thought the 3000s and 4000s probably were, too.

Now, I am intoxicated with the idea of power. I may not listen ALL THE TIME to powerful loud bass or screaming volume, but I may have a football game on or a kickass movie or be listening to some tunes that I just want to crank. I was trying to play my drums the other day with a Spotify feed (I know it's the best quality) and had it in the 70s and could still hear my drums over it. I'd like to have the "potential" to go louder should I want to upgrade my system and add more power, more volume to it. However, I could hear those PB2000s and be like damn, that's cranking, too.

I guess if the SVS PB16 is indeed just way, way overkill, and I"ll let it go. But if it's potentially worth it and will rock my world should I want to in a way that the 2000s just can't touch, even two of them, I need to seriously consider it. Does that make sense from a true layman who doesn't know what the hell he's gotten himself into?

I don't understand the overkill notion at all. There's no such thing as too much sub if it (they) fit in the room. A bigger sub may be used at a smaller percentage of its capability, but that just lowers distortion and increases headroom. The SVS guy might think that two smaller subs will sound smoother than one large sub due to room effects, but that's another matter altogether, and multiple bass sources are generally better than one for bass smoothness.

If you really want the PB16, I say go for it, and ignore the sales guy.

I think the point that needs to be made clear is we are not talking overkill as in the subwoofers will overwhelm the rest of your system and sound like crap!
SVS employs some knowledgeable people to answer these questions (I don't know if he still does, but Ed Mullen used to answer the phone routinely)! It is not clear that SVS actually used the word overkill! I believe they are saying that for your situation, as you described it, dual PB2000's will do a great job. Generally, they take a how much is enough approach to their recommendations. The PB16 probably beats the PB2000 in every metric, but SVS is saying that the difference will be inaudible or very close to it (our ears are designed to heard mid-range and high frequencies with much more detail than low bass). The PB3000 would suitably hedge your bets.
However, I also agree with Irv - If you have the money such that you will not later regret having spent it on the PB16's (and you don't mind dealing with the weight and size),there is absolutely no reason not to get the PB16's! It is nice to have good stuff! The PB16's are not the absolute best, but they are incredibly great and should last you a lifetime - they will certainly competently manage any normal residential room you might end up moving into. However, there may be some new feature or change over the next decade or two that will catch your fancy!
So, I ultimately see it as a question of how financially conservative do you want/need to be!
One more point to include in your calculus is that within a year, SVS's policy allows you to return any purchase for full credit when upgrading to another SVS product - check the "One Year Trade Up Policy" here:
https://www.svsound.com/pages/bill-of-rights ... however, you do have to pay shipping which is not chump change on a 176 pound subwoofer!

Good luck with your decision!

 

[ryanosaur]

Good Lord, I don't understand hardly any of this stuff!! That's why my pals are for, to "edumacate" me!! Haha...TGIF!

I know I saw somebody show you the link for the bassaholic room ratings. You don't have to understand EVERYTHING, but its a good place to start looking at the principles that will help you understand what a room needs to have high-end response.
@KEW even just suggested the same as some of us with the PB3000. Its OK to hedge your bet! But if you look at the reviews here, many written by Shady, some by Steve... these are guys that know subs! ...they will reference the recommended room size for a bunch of subs. As you read them, cross reference back and forth. Before too long, you'll be giving people suggestions and advice! As well as understand your room way, WAY more!
Now from a sub perspective: the VTF 15H mk@ is capable of hitting 102dB @ 16Hz, looking at the CEA test.
Not finding details for the PB 16 Ultra, but thought I saw @shadyJ post something the other day. Maybe he'll check in... but the PB 4000 is capable of hitting 107dB @ 16Hz. (So the Ultra will be more, the 3000 a little less.)
The PB2000 is testing at 103dB at 20Hz... so lower still.
My subs, as comparison are capable of about 102dB at 16Hz the way I use them. (I have no complaints!)

Anyway, I hope this helps put it in perspective for you. You aren't going to shoot yourself in the foot buying Hsu. Or Outlaw, or Monolith... etc. Even the PB3000 as a pair will be a great option, and better than the 2000s.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

I think you did everything right. And no need to worry about hijacking threads. I don't think! Much learning and fun can be had has sidebars!
Anyway, I just think something is going on, either in your room acoustics, set-up, or just in matching subs to room that is putting you right at the cusp of larger subs.
I did the Audyssey thing, set for ~73dB on the initial level adjust for the Subs, but then had upright bass in a small jazz combo vibrating me. So it was set maybe a little over 1/3 gain, and I turned it down to almost half gain, as well as resetting the trim levels to about -4dB. I left the Audyssey Speaker Level Calibration alone (-6 and -7dB for the two Subs).
Now this is where the classic YMMV comes in. Even two people with the same Subs will have different results. But when I want more Woof, I use the AVR trim under Subwoofer Level Adjust... never touching the Gain, or the Speaker Level setting that Aud. set.
Perhaps, I'm wrong, but I suspect that what Irv was saying earlier, is that there are a lot of other variables in the chain than just using your SPL meter to confirm where your subs are set. and a High-level vs Low-level recording (for example) can change that experience, or a device in the signal chain that changes the gain structure throughout the signal path...
Regardless, my spidey senses were tingling when you said you turned things up.

I like where your heads at with this approach. Having more than you need on tap and letting the AVR decide how much to use. That can be adjusted with a remote so it’s very convenient.

I don’t need much encouragement to buy new stuff, I love tinkering with new toys. Now I can tell my wife “this guy on the internet says we need bigger subs, sooo.. I think we need bigger subs”. It could work!

 

[shadyJ]

I know I saw somebody show you the link for the bassaholic room ratings. You don't have to understand EVERYTHING, but its a good place to start looking at the principles that will help you understand what a room needs to have high-end response.
@KEW even just suggested the same as some of us with the PB3000. Its OK to hedge your bet! But if you look at the reviews here, many written by Shady, some by Steve... these are guys that know subs! ...they will reference the recommended room size for a bunch of subs. As you read them, cross reference back and forth. Before too long, you'll be giving people suggestions and advice! As well as understand your room way, WAY more!
Now from a sub perspective: the VTF 15H mk@ is capable of hitting 111dB @ 16Hz, looking at the CEA test.
Not finding details for the PB 16 Ultra, but thought I saw @shadyJ post something the other day. Maybe he'll check in... but the PB 4000 is capable of hitting 107dB @ 16Hz. (So the Ultra will be more, the 3000 a little less.)
The PB2000 is testing at 103dB at 20Hz... so lower still.
My subs, as comparison are capable of about 102dB at 16Hz the way I use them. (I have no complaints!)

Anyway, I hope this helps put it in perspective for you. You aren't going to shoot yourself in the foot buying Hsu. Or Outlaw, or Monolith... etc. Even the PB3000 as a pair will be a great option, and better than the 2000s.

Measurements for the PB16-Ultra. 109.1 dB at 16 Hz.

By the way, you are quoting the Hsu's numbers which are measured at 1 meter peak. Normally when we discuss CEA-2010, we assume 2 meters RMS, which is 9 dB down from 1 meter peak. So the Hsu will be able to hit 102 dB at 16 Hz in your comparison, not 111 dB. That is still quite good.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There’s a lot of good advice here. But don’t buy a subwoofer that’s super mega awesome and will destroy you and your house...because it’s heavy? Try moving refrigerators and furniture. Lmao

 

[Steelers252006]

There’s a lot of good advice here. But don’t buy a subwoofer that’s super mega awesome and will destroy you and your house...because it’s heavy? Try moving refrigerators and furniture. Lmao

Haha, but big ass subs are so much sexier.

 

[Steelers252006]

@Sef_Makaro
Hey, bud! Mind, I’m not the expert, but I will say the ideal would be to have your subs trimmed a little in the negative, rather than the positive.
The general rule of thumb is to set them at about 50% gain, and let room correction adjust for distance and level... then fine tune from there, as needed. For me, Audyssey set them hot and I turned the trim and gain both down. After using RC, I also turned it off, just maintaining the distance and level settings. Now, I have significant headroom to play with due to my choice of sub, and room size.
I don’t necessarily think your subs are undersized for your room, but the possibility exists you are on that threshold.
@Steelers252006 im coming back for you in a little bit!

I told you before Ryans rock, right!!!??

 

[Steelers252006]

I think the point that needs to be made clear is we are not talking overkill as in the subwoofers will overwhelm the rest of your system and sound like crap!
SVS employs some knowledgeable people to answer these questions (I don't know if he still does, but Ed Mullen used to answer the phone routinely)! It is not clear that SVS actually used the word overkill! I believe they are saying that for your situation, as you described it, dual PB2000's will do a great job. Generally, they take a how much is enough approach to their recommendations. The PB16 probably beats the PB2000 in every metric, but SVS is saying that the difference will be inaudible or very close to it (our ears are designed to heard mid-range and high frequencies with much more detail than low bass). The PB3000 would suitably hedge your bets.
However, I also agree with Irv - If you have the money such that you will not later regret having spent it on the PB16's (and you don't mind dealing with the weight and size),there is absolutely no reason not to get the PB16's! It is nice to have good stuff! The PB16's are not the absolute best, but they are incredibly great and should last you a lifetime - they will certainly competently manage any normal residential room you might end up moving into. However, there may be some new feature or change over the next decade or two that will catch your fancy!
So, I ultimately see it as a question of how financially conservative do you want/need to be!
One more point to include in your calculus is that within a year, SVS's policy allows you to return any purchase for full credit when upgrading to another SVS product - check the "One Year Trade Up Policy" here:
https://www.svsound.com/pages/bill-of-rights ... however, you do have to pay shipping which is not chump change on a 176 pound subwoofer!

Good luck with your decision!

EXCELLENT post and appreciate the sound advice!!

 

[Steelers252006]

I know I saw somebody show you the link for the bassaholic room ratings. You don't have to understand EVERYTHING, but its a good place to start looking at the principles that will help you understand what a room needs to have high-end response.
@KEW even just suggested the same as some of us with the PB3000. Its OK to hedge your bet! But if you look at the reviews here, many written by Shady, some by Steve... these are guys that know subs! ...they will reference the recommended room size for a bunch of subs. As you read them, cross reference back and forth. Before too long, you'll be giving people suggestions and advice! As well as understand your room way, WAY more!
Now from a sub perspective: the VTF 15H mk@ is capable of hitting 111dB @ 16Hz, looking at the CEA test.
Not finding details for the PB 16 Ultra, but thought I saw @shadyJ post something the other day. Maybe he'll check in... but the PB 4000 is capable of hitting 107dB @ 16Hz. (So the Ultra will be more, the 3000 a little less.)
The PB2000 is testing at 103dB at 20Hz... so lower still.
My subs, as comparison are capable of about 102dB at 16Hz the way I use them. (I have no complaints!)

Anyway, I hope this helps put it in perspective for you. You aren't going to shoot yourself in the foot buying Hsu. Or Outlaw, or Monolith... etc. Even the PB3000 as a pair will be a great option, and better than the 2000s.

So right this minute and after reading this post I would say I'm leaning heavily towards two HSU VTG 15 MKs...I'm sitting here up working and jamming out to some acoustical tracks and loving every minute of it. Scary to know it could be just SOOO MUCH BETTER, but I'm damn happy with what I'm hearing right now. As Danzilla says, eargasm?

 

[ryanosaur]

I like where your heads at with this approach. Having more than you need on tap and letting the AVR decide how much to use. That can be adjusted with a remote so it’s very convenient.

I don’t need much encouragement to buy new stuff, I love tinkering with new toys. Now I can tell my wife “this guy on the internet says we need bigger subs, sooo.. I think we need bigger subs”. It could work!

Let me know how that works out for you!

Somewhere in there is the definition of Headroom. If you can't turn it up yourself, whats gonna happen when the TRex stomps on the Jeep, or a Depth Charge goes off near the hull of the Submaine you are in?
My situation is weird: I bought my Subs based on potentially putting them in an 8000'3 room... and had I, I woulda found myself hoping for a 3rd! But in my 2000'3 room, when I first set them up wit hthe gain at 50%, my ears went numb in 5 mins. I manually adjusted them 5-6 times before I could listen for longer than 15 minutes wondering what was up!
Somewhere in there is the balance point. More than you need, but how much more?
I'm defininitely not urging you to go out and buy new subs! Fun as that may be.
And ultimately... Are you happy with them? If yes, you're doing well! Better than the cats asking about thier Polk 505s!

 

[ryanosaur]

Measurements for the PB16-Ultra. 109.1 dB at 16 Hz.

By the way, you are quoting the Hsu's numbers which are measured at 1 meter peak. Normally when we discuss CEA-2010, we assume 2 meters RMS, which is 9 dB down from 1 meter peak. So the Hsu will be able to hit 102 dB at 16 Hz in your comparison, not 111 dB. That is still quite good.

Ah hell... I didn't catch that... SO OVER THIS COLD! Thanks for the correction, Shady!!!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Haha, but big ass subs are so much sexier.

That’s my point. Get what you want. You’ll find a way. 175lbs is easy.

Btw, looks like your doin a pair of “shoes”! I think you’ll be super happy.

 

[snakeeyes]

That’s my point. Get what you want. You’ll find a way. 175lbs is easy.

Btw, looks like your doin a pair of “shoes”! I think you’ll be super happy.

I would love to have a couple VTF15’s.

 

[Steelers252006]

That’s my point. Get what you want. You’ll find a way. 175lbs is easy.

Btw, looks like your doin a pair of “shoes”! I think you’ll be super happy.

What’s a pair of shoes?

 

[shadyJ]

There’s a lot of good advice here. But don’t buy a subwoofer that’s super mega awesome and will destroy you and your house...because it’s heavy? Try moving refrigerators and furniture. Lmao

The thing about subs is that you can get the same effect with a bunch of more manageable units as with a single huge enclosure. If you have a way of managing the logistics of a huge 176 lbs enclosure, then yes, the PB16-Ultra is a great choice. But you can probably get largely the same performance of the PB16-Ultra with a pair of PB-3000s, and the 3000s would be far easier to deal with. Also, I would say that safely moving around a PB16-Ultra is more challenging than furniture or a fridge.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I would say that safely moving around a PB16-Ultra is more challenging than furniture or a fridge.

The PB16-Ultra is tougher to move than a six feet tall, 37" wide, 350lb refrigerator? I'm having trouble picturing this. Doubtful.

 

[shadyJ]

The PB16-Ultra is tougher to move than a six feet tall, 37" wide, 350lb refrigerator? I'm having trouble picturing this. Doubtful.

The fridge isnt bad to move when you have a dolly. The PB16-Ultra has a gloss black finish that you do not want to risk scuffing. It also makes it hard to grip on account of the rounded corners and slick surface texture. What's more, the small feet do not give the sub much clearance from the ground, so it is difficult to lift by hand. I have moved fridges and I have moved the PB16-ultra- the fridges were a lot easier.

 

[GrimSurfer]

The trade-off in sealed vs ported subs is deep bass output vs size. Everything else being equal, sealed subs can be much smaller, but they sacrifice a lot of SPL capability vs the ported subs' port tuning frequency. For example, look at the PB16-Ultra vs the SB16-Ultra. At the port tuning frequency of the PB16-Ultra, it can score 109 db at 16 Hz, but the SB16 can only do 94.7. That means that the PB16 has four times the headroom at 16 Hz than the SB16. As we move away from the port tuning frequency, that output advantage lessens. The question is, how much deep bass capability do you want. If you want monster deep bass capability, get a ported sub. But if you don't have room for a large subwoofer, sealed is a great choice, but you do give up a lot of deep bass headroom.

Something else to keep in mind is that many of these variable tuning subwoofers support a sealed operating mode. So if you find that the deep bass from a ported sub to be overwhelming, you can always plug the ports which majorly reduces deep bass output. But with a sealed subwoofer, you are stuck with its deep bass output limitations.

This analysis looks at one index only (bass extension) and ignores consistency of bass delivery.

Look more closely at both products' spl vs frequency.

The PB has greater extension but has a notice peak st the port tuning frequency. SPL drops with frequency after that point. Plugging a port doesn't change this characteristic in any significant way.

So the issue isn't that one is better than the other; It's that ported and sealed designs typically offer different things. The trick is to select the design that best meets your needs.

Ported subs tend to work best when the principal requirement is max bass extension. Sealed subs tend to work best when the principle requirement is consistent bass.

So the conventional thinking is that ported subs work best for audio video (where LFE is most valued) and that sealed work best for music (where consistency is most valued).

 

[shadyJ]

This analysis looks at one index only (bass extension) and ignores consistency of bass delivery.

Look more closely at both products' spl vs frequency.

The PB has greater extension but has a notice peak st the port tuning frequency. SPL drops with frequency after that point. Plugging a port doesn't change this characteristic in any significant way.

So the issue isn't that one is better than the other; It's that ported and sealed designs typically offer different things. The trick is to select the design that best meets your needs.

Ported subs tend to work best when the principal requirement is max bass extension. Sealed subs tend to work best when the principle requirement is consistent bass.

So the conventional thinking is that ported subs work best for audio video (where LFE is most valued) and that sealed work best for music (where consistency is most valued).

I don't really know what you mean by consistent bass, but I don't think I generally agree with this thinking here. Of course, different responses are more suited for different applications, but the idea that ported is better for movies and sealed is better for music is outmoded.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I don't really know what you mean by consistent bass, but I don't think I generally agree with this thinking here. Of course, different responses are more suited for different applications, but the idea that ported is better for movies and sealed is better for music is outmoded.

Perhaps I should have said "consistent levels of bass". Or I could have used the term "flat response" over a greater portion of the sub-bass and bass range.

https://www.teachmeaudio.com/mixing/techniques/audio-spectrum/

I'd like to learn more about why you say that ported/sealed views are outmoded because the predominant views here, and on other forums, as as follows:

A flat response is necessary for accurate sound reproduction, which is what music lovers typically seek.

A response favoring high levels of very low bass is what movie buffs typically seek.