Differences on ported and sealed subs

[Irvrobinson]

So I just got off the phone with SVS, was talking a good hour or so (need to get my run in now). I sent pictures of my room, and he said it's probably around 3,000 cubic feet and suggested the two PB2000s and eventually the center channel to go with it. I asked him about the SVSPB Ultra 16, and he said it would crank and sound great, but I'd have to turn it down significantly. I also asked him if I turned it down, how would it compare to say dual PB2000s? He still seemed to think the PB2000s would be more balanced and sound better. In essence, he thinks the SVSPB16 is overkill for my room. He also thought the 3000s and 4000s probably were, too.

Now, I am intoxicated with the idea of power. I may not listen ALL THE TIME to powerful loud bass or screaming volume, but I may have a football game on or a kickass movie or be listening to some tunes that I just want to crank. I was trying to play my drums the other day with a Spotify feed (I know it's the best quality) and had it in the 70s and could still hear my drums over it. I'd like to have the "potential" to go louder should I want to upgrade my system and add more power, more volume to it. However, I could hear those PB2000s and be like damn, that's cranking, too.

I guess if the SVS PB16 is indeed just way, way overkill, and I"ll let it go. But if it's potentially worth it and will rock my world should I want to in a way that the 2000s just can't touch, even two of them, I need to seriously consider it. Does that make sense from a true layman who doesn't know what the hell he's gotten himself into?

I don't understand the overkill notion at all. There's no such thing as too much sub if it (they) fit in the room. A bigger sub may be used at a smaller percentage of its capability, but that just lowers distortion and increases headroom. The SVS guy might think that two smaller subs will sound smoother than one large sub due to room effects, but that's another matter altogether, and multiple bass sources are generally better than one for bass smoothness.

If you really want the PB16, I say go for it, and ignore the sales guy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think you realize what you are getting into with the PB16-Ultra.

I just looked up the weight on that thing - 175 pounds!

I am glad my SV-1212N is only 97 pounds.

 

[ryanosaur]

Though I'm surprised a little to see you say it like that, @Irvrobinson , it is true!
I like having too much sub. 2 x-13s in a 2000'3 room is nice. I can move them, too, which is a bonus! More than anything, I agree with the assertion that operating at a lower gain allows for cleaner output.
I think our friend would be served just as nicely stepping above the SVS 2000 series weight class, while still not going all the way into the Sub-Of-Doom category requiring back braces and possibly traction.
A pair of Hsu VTF 15s? Or PB3000s? There are so many good choices, really, which would outperform his needs as dual subs, thus fulfilling both goals: power and even in-room response.

As I said, its a decision he will need to make for himself!

 

[Steelers252006]

So THIS is why I’ve been doing deadlifts and farmer walks for years now, to move this heavy ass speaker around. Lol.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

So I just got off the phone with SVS, was talking a good hour or so (need to get my run in now). I sent pictures of my room, and he said it's probably around 3,000 cubic feet and suggested the two PB2000s and eventually the center channel to go with it. I asked him about the SVSPB Ultra 16, and he said it would crank and sound great, but I'd have to turn it down significantly. I also asked him if I turned it down, how would it compare to say dual PB2000s? He still seemed to think the PB2000s would be more balanced and sound better. In essence, he thinks the SVSPB16 is overkill for my room. He also thought the 3000s and 4000s probably were, too.

Now, I am intoxicated with the idea of power. I may not listen ALL THE TIME to powerful loud bass or screaming volume, but I may have a football game on or a kickass movie or be listening to some tunes that I just want to crank. I was trying to play my drums the other day with a Spotify feed (I know it's the best quality) and had it in the 70s and could still hear my drums over it. I'd like to have the "potential" to go louder should I want to upgrade my system and add more power, more volume to it. However, I could hear those PB2000s and be like damn, that's cranking, too.

I guess if the SVS PB16 is indeed just way, way overkill, and I"ll let it go. But if it's potentially worth it and will rock my world should I want to in a way that the 2000s just can't touch, even two of them, I need to seriously consider it. Does that make sense from a true layman who doesn't know what the hell he's gotten himself into?

I have 2 PB-2000s in a bigger space than your room and they definitely crank. To hit the proper levels I only have to have the gain at 40-50% on the sub itself.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have 2 PB-2000s in a bigger space than your room and they definitely crank. To hit the proper levels I only have to have the gain at 40-50% on the sub itself.

Gain settings (and volume control settings, for that matter) are not good indicators for whether the product is being stressed. The gain structure of the entire signal path can have multiple variables, and all it takes is one component with high sensitivity or a high internal gain and a downstream component (like a sub) might need low volume control levels for normal operation.

 

[ryanosaur]

I have 2 PB-2000s in a bigger space than your room and they definitely crank. To hit the proper levels I only have to have the gain at 40-50% on the sub itself.

Curious for you to share pls: did you run your room correction with the subs, and if so, what trim levels did your AVR set? Thanks!

 

[Sef_Makaro]

I did run room correction with the subs. After I level matched them with the new spl meter I got. I set the levels to around 75db, ran room YPAO which set the left sub to -1 and the right one to +.5. I wanted a bit more so I took out the meter and set them to 79-80db. I set the subs to mono and played a few different frequencies through them(30hz, 40hz, 50hz). I had my wife sit on the couch and listen as I adjusted the phase on one of them, had her tell me when it seemed louder. Once all that was done we listened to some music to see how it turned out. Sounds pretty good!

YPAO actually set most of the levels close to 0. The LCRs were all +\- .5db. The surround right was set a bit higher at +5 but I’m guessing that’s because that one is mounted on the end of the wall between the livingroom and kitchen. It’s kind of hanging out in space in its own.

Edit-I’m not sure what the target level for subs is in YPAO but when combined with whatever variables there are in my room the AVR seemed happy with where I set them. I really should get a mic and REW to see what the room is actually doing.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Gain settings (and volume control settings, for that matter) are not good indicators for whether the product is being stressed. The gain structure of the entire signal path can have multiple variables, and all it takes is one component with high sensitivity or a high internal gain and a downstream component (like a sub) might need low volume control levels for normal operation.

I sense a learning opportunity coming!

 

[Steelers252006]

I sense a learning opportunity coming!

Good Lord, I don't understand hardly any of this stuff!! That's why my pals are for, to "edumacate" me!! Haha...TGIF!

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Good Lord, I don't understand hardly any of this stuff!! That's why my pals are for, to "edumacate" me!! Haha...TGIF!

Same here, I just start slightly before you did lol

 

[Steelers252006]

Same here, I just start slightly before you did lol

Damn, hard to tell!!!

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Damn, hard to tell!!!

I’m a sponge.

 

[Steelers252006]

I’m a sponge.

Hey, as long as it sounds good I'm happy. I wish I had the time to invest in this stuff. All I do is freaking WORK!! So your setup is kicking, huh?

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Hey, as long as it sounds good I'm happy. I wish I had the time to invest in this stuff. All I do is freaking WORK!! So your setup is kicking, huh?

Yessir. It’s always a work in progress and I’m learning to tune it better. Sounds good but I always want to see if I can make it better.

I’ve looked at the PB-3000, PB-4000 and the PB16 Ultra. They all look amazing. They’d no doubt be more powerful than what I have. At this point I feel like I’d benefit more from the tunable EQs they have built in though. If I understand right I can gain that feature with a miniDSP.

I work long hours too but have the benefit of frequent short downtime while waiting for things to boot up or download updates. So I have lots of opportunity to peruse forums.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yessir. It’s always a work in progress and I’m learning to tune it better. Sounds good but I always want to see if I can make it better.

I’ve looked at the PB-3000, PB-4000 and the PB16 Ultra. They all look amazing. They’d no doubt be more powerful than what I have. At this point I feel like I’d benefit more from the tunable EQs they have built in though. If I understand right I can gain that feature with a miniDSP.

I work long hours too but have the benefit of frequent short downtime while waiting for things to boot up or download updates. So I have lots of opportunity to peruse forums.

Yes, there are miniDSP units that can handle sub eq just fine (as well as delay), the 2x4HD for example.

 

[ryanosaur]

@Sef_Makaro
Hey, bud! Mind, I’m not the expert, but I will say the ideal would be to have your subs trimmed a little in the negative, rather than the positive.
The general rule of thumb is to set them at about 50% gain, and let room correction adjust for distance and level... then fine tune from there, as needed. For me, Audyssey set them hot and I turned the trim and gain both down. After using RC, I also turned it off, just maintaining the distance and level settings. Now, I have significant headroom to play with due to my choice of sub, and room size.
I don’t necessarily think your subs are undersized for your room, but the possibility exists you are on that threshold.
@Steelers252006 im coming back for you in a little bit!

 

[Sef_Makaro]

@Sef_Makaro
Hey, bud! Mind, I’m not the expert, but I will say the ideal would be to have your subs trimmed a little in the negative, rather than the positive.
The general rule of thumb is to set them at about 50% gain, and let room correction adjust for distance and level... then fine tune from there, as needed. For me, Audyssey set them hot and I turned the trim and gain both down. After using RC, I also turned it off, just maintaining the distance and level settings. Now, I have significant headroom to play with due to my choice of sub, and room size.
I don’t necessarily think your subs are undersized for your room, but the possibility exists you are on that threshold.
@Steelers252006 im coming back for you in a little bit!

I’m always willing to try something different. I went with matching with the gain control on the sub from my SR7008. The first step of Audyssey had me do exactly that. I figure it worth a shot to try out how others do it.

Sorry @Steelers252006, not trying to hijack your thread!

 

[Steelers252006]

Yes, there are miniDSP units that can handle sub eq just fine (as well as delay), the 2x4HD for example.

PM me.

 

[ryanosaur]

I’m always willing to try something different. I went with matching with the gain control on the sub from my SR7008. The first step of Audyssey had me do exactly that. I figure it worth a shot to try out how others do it.

Sorry @Steelers252006, not trying to hijack your thread!

I think you did everything right. And no need to worry about hijacking threads. I don't think! Much learning and fun can be had has sidebars!
Anyway, I just think something is going on, either in your room acoustics, set-up, or just in matching subs to room that is putting you right at the cusp of larger subs.
I did the Audyssey thing, set for ~73dB on the initial level adjust for the Subs, but then had upright bass in a small jazz combo vibrating me. So it was set maybe a little over 1/3 gain, and I turned it down to almost 1/4 gain, as well as resetting the trim levels to about -4dB. I left the Audyssey Speaker Level Calibration alone (-6 and -7dB for the two Subs).
Now this is where the classic YMMV comes in. Even two people with the same Subs will have different results. But when I want more Woof, I use the AVR trim under Subwoofer Level Adjust... never touching the Gain, or the Speaker Level setting that Aud. set.
Perhaps, I'm wrong, but I suspect that what Irv was saying earlier, is that there are a lot of other variables in the chain than just using your SPL meter to confirm where your subs are set. and a High-level vs Low-level recording (for example) can change that experience, or a device in the signal chain that changes the gain structure throughout the signal path...
Regardless, my spidey senses were tingling when you said you turned things up.