What Happens When You Start Listening To Vinyl Again

[DIY Junky]

I bought a stereo system when I was in high school. I had to work all summer to earn enough money to pay for it. I remember I paid $300 for it and it was the cheapest "hi fi" system that the audio place near my house had. The system had a kenwood stereo receiver and avid speakers. I have no idea what the turntable was. The system sounded good. I sold it and my bicycle to help finance a long road trip when I left the house and managed to shrink my belongings down to one backpack, .

When I got my first job, I decided to migrate to CDs and never looked back. Heck I still buy CDs and rip them to lossless even though I know it's a bit crazy since the high bit rate files that stream online sound good to me.

I only rip wav from cds and when I am forced too with the free down load with Vinyl I have a few Mp3s

 

[Mikado463]

Sadly what you say has been true. I have been lucky, and really always had pretty decent playback equipment. In the mono era, I built my own mc cartridges, and tacked at 3 GM before anyone else. My nylon cord stylus suspension was shared with and adopted by Decca, for the ffss. Those not mc, but moving iron variable reluctance, but they did not and do not use a cantilever.

Early Decca ffss 78 rpm mono head.

Certainly the LP is capable well below 40 Hz, but some cutting lathes has low frequency rumble, so a high pass filter at 30 Hz can make sense.

I used mainly European pressings, in the early days, us pressing were markedly inferior in many ways. I think also in that "Golden age of British Audio" play back systems over there were superior to the US.

The real issue though with the LP and part of this was microphones of the time, was HF distortion.

Peter Walker's Quad preamps always had the great secret weapon of filters with 10K, 7k and 5K turnover frequencies with a continuously variable slope. This was just brilliant. Harold J Leake copied it with his Varislope, but it was not as useful as the Quad.

This is so effective, that I believe if you have a large legacy collection of LPs, a Quad preamp is part of the basics.

That is the reason for this.

interesting TLS, thanks for the 'education' !

 

[DIY Junky]

No way I'm buying a record player again . . .

Then I'll have to start buying vinyl again like my nephew does, lol.

I'm happy with my 2.0 stereo system (outlaw stereo receiver, PSB Image T6 towers) , CD player, (Marantz),and networking preamp (yamaha).

Now the bicycles I like to ride are definitely old school. This is my Olmo Gran Sport. Not bad looking for a 58 year old racing bike, . I rebuilt it 2 years ago and all the bearing surfaces were smooth (you have to like old school craftmanship). The only change I made to the bike was that I replaced the tubulars with clinchers. I love the way tubulars ride, gluing them on after a flat no so much. The bike is made from falk tubing (a chrome moly tubing set). The derailleurs are campy gran sport (top of the line in the 1950s) and the bike has what was considered back then as top level gearing. Oh yeah, that's a steel cottered crankset (a Magistroni) with aluminum chain rings. The chainrings provide half step gearing (49/46 rings)(which is about all that an old school push rod front derailleur can handle), and 13-26 5 speed in the back. All I can say is thank god that there isn't much in the way of hills in Des Moines.

View attachment 26858

I have a 1990 ? or Older?? Specialized Hardrock that I rebuilt for hitting the rail trails with

 

[KEW]

In the mono era, I built my own mc cartridges, and tacked at 3 GM before anyone else. My nylon cord stylus suspension was shared with and adopted by Decca, for the ffss. Those not mc, but moving iron variable reluctance, but they did not and do not use a cantilever.

Dr. Mark, you often intrigue me by knowing way too much about way too many different topics!
My first instinct upon encountering someone like that is that they are some "blow-hard braggart" making up BS, and usually I am right! However, in your case, it doesn't take long to realize you know of what you speak and are not BS'ing!
So, why I am posting this is "building a DIY cartridge and designing a cartridge suspension that was adapted by Decca" does not fall in the typical purview of the hobbyist! That, and your obviously close association with Quad and the BBC (from an audio standpoint) really pique my curiosity.
Can you give us a brief summary of how you might have done all of this?
Were you an audio engineer/designer of some sort before becoming an MD, were they always two parallel pursuits?
IOW, was you involvement in audio professional and in what capacity? What led you to get involved at an early (?) age? Did you have a mentor or contact who helped introduce you to some people who would whet your appetite for audio/science (as opposed to just being a lover of music and SQ).
What did your dad do?

These might be personal questions; but, honestly, you are the kind of person I would like to read a biography of.
I have met many brilliant people in my life, but not all of them have the motivation to accomplish much (using their intelligence to coast through life rather than engaging it in depth)!
In any case congratulations to you for having the gift of a very good mind and the good fortune to be born in a "modern" country* and ambition to accomplish some noteworthy things with it.
*I have often wondered how much less Nikola Tesla would have accomplished if he had to stay in Croatia for some reason!

 

[bikemig]

I have a 1990 ? or Older?? Specialized Hardrock that I rebuilt for hitting the rail trails with

I'm with you. Old MTBs rock. You can find them cheap on craigslist. They make great all around bikes since they're stout bikes and so usually they're in decent shape when you find them on CL. Plus most people don't buy bikes to ride; I think they see them as decoration for their garage. I have picked up some cherry older bikes on CL before. lol

 

[Alex2507]

*I have often wondered how much less Nikola Tesla would have accomplished if he had to stay in Croatia for some reason!

Or how much more!

 

[TLS Guy]

Dr. Mark, you often intrigue me by knowing way too much about way too many different topics!
My first instinct upon encountering someone like that is that they are some "blow-hard braggart" making up BS, and usually I am right! However, in your case, it doesn't take long to realize you know of what you speak and are not BS'ing!
So, why I am posting this is "building a DIY cartridge and designing a cartridge suspension that was adapted by Decca" does not fall in the typical purview of the hobbyist! That, and your obviously close association with Quad and the BBC (from an audio standpoint) really pique my curiosity.
Can you give us a brief summary of how you might have done all of this?
Were you an audio engineer/designer of some sort before becoming an MD, were they always two parallel pursuits?
IOW, was you involvement in audio professional and in what capacity? What led you to get involved at an early (?) age? Did you have a mentor or contact who helped introduce you to some people who would whet your appetite for audio/science (as opposed to just being a lover of music and SQ).
What did your dad do?

These might be personal questions; but, honestly, you are the kind of person I would like to read a biography of.
I have met many brilliant people in my life, but not all of them have the motivation to accomplish much (using their intelligence to coast through life rather than engaging it in depth)!
In any case congratulations to you for having the gift of a very good mind and the good fortune to be born in a "modern" country* and ambition to accomplish some noteworthy things with it.
*I have often wondered how much less Nikola Tesla would have accomplished if he had to stay in Croatia for some reason!

Well I was just a kid in short pants. A cartridge is actually quite simple. The starting point was a kids red magnet.

Sort of like this, but smaller.

You could obtain shaped diamonds mounted for use in a PU. With a watchmakers lens I could wind very fine copper wire round the shank.

Then it was suspended on nylon and placed between the pole pieces with some foam sponge as damping.

Fixed to the back was the UK Belling Lee antenna connector.

The male end was inserted in the end of a piece of old aluminum antenna. This formed the arm. The unipivot part of the arm was made from a disused ball point pen. A movable brass weight was used as the counter weight. It even had a lift mounted on the outside of the deck that was adapted from the focusing mechanism of an old Swiss Bolex camera.

In the Soho district of London around Leicester Square there were lots of electronic "junk" surplus military parts stores were you could pick up components for a few shillings. I picked up EMI transformers for the step up from the mc cartridge. The things is it was not that difficult and it worked and actually well.

I never tried a stereo one though!

I got to know leaders of the audio community at the yearly Audio Fares at the Hotel Russell on Russell square. These were in April and very friendly informal affairs, with every body exchanging ideas. So you had easy access to the likes of Peter Walker, Ted Jordan, Raymond Cooke, Gilbert Briggs, Stan Kelly and lots of others.

The KEF works was only 15 miles up the River Medway from where I lived. The Lowther works was at Bromley Kent, not far away.

That was all a very different time, and very much a cottage industry if you like. I think in the UK at that time there was more DIY than bought off the shelf actually. Even Gramophone magazine, had lots of DIY articles at that time vigorously encourage by the technical editor Percy Wilson himself, who was an inveterate DIYer. He actually was the first to come up with the anti skate correction and published how to add it to existing arms.

Of course Gilbert Briggs founder of Wharfedale published lots of books on DIY speaker building and his protege Raymond Cooke who founded KEF had the KEF Constructor series and published lots of information on crossovers and sold build ones for designs in the constructor series. Here is one project.

That was a very different time and also a very exciting one.

 

[highfigh]

LPs are indeed capable of sub-40Hz bass, but it takes a very good and very well-adjusted turntable/arm/cartridge system to properly render that bass.

As for European pressings often being superior, agreed. I was a bit young and impoverished for the golden age of British audio.

One thing that makes or breaks a turntable/cartridge combination is how well or if the cartridge is a good match for the tonearm. In many cases, it's not and that not only affects the sound, it badly affects the tracking ability.

LP quality has always varied in the US, mainly because they wanted to squeeze every last pressing out of the stampers, even if it meant they had chunks of cardboard in the vinyl, warps, were off-center, contained mostly re-ground vinyl, etc. Then, there were the bad versions that were made from copies of masters. which lost dynamics, frequency response and general sound quality.

One thing I notice when I listen to vinyl is in the low end- it's definitely not lacking and in some cases, the bass on the CD is actually weaker, although I haven't bought many "remastered" CDs and I know they often sound much better than the original. When I listen to classical, the consistency is better, though. Jazz was always less consistent- some labels had a 'sound' that was clearly obvious.

 

[little wing]

I bought a stereo system when I was in high school. I had to work all summer to earn enough money to pay for it. I remember I paid $300 for it and it was the cheapest "hi fi" system that the audio place near my house had. The system had a kenwood stereo receiver and avid speakers. I have no idea what the turntable was. The system sounded good. I sold it and my bicycle to help finance a long road trip when I left the house and managed to shrink my belongings down to one backpack, .

When I got my first job, I decided to migrate to CDs and never looked back. Heck I still buy CDs and rip them to lossless even though I know it's a bit crazy since the high bit rate files that stream online sound good to me.

It's not crazy at all. I still by CDs and rip lossless too, WAV even. One song can easily take up 50 or 60mb or more. But I don't care. I also stream Pandora, Sirius, and internet radio, which all sound good. But the WAV files sound the best to me.

No vinyl yet but I'm contemplating a turn table.

 

[VonMagnum]

Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl (30th Anniversary) sounded better than my CDs (which were already quite good). My Carver system is 100% analog from turntable to 6' tall 48" ribbon speaker (although it has quite a few digital media players connected as well). The only "subs" are the 10" downward facing woofers that play down to 27Hz already.

Custom active crossovers bi-amped, Carver Sonic Holography C5 preamp with motorized volume control and 480 watts (into 4 ohms) per channel.

 

[JerryLove]

One thing I notice when I listen to vinyl is in the low end- it's definitely not lacking and in some cases, the bass on the CD is actually weaker, although I haven't bought many "remastered" CDs and I know they often sound much better than the original. When I listen to classical, the consistency is better, though. Jazz was always less consistent- some labels had a 'sound' that was clearly obvious.

I suspect that's generally the result of DR compression being done to make the CDs sound "lounder".

Remember: there's zero difference between under-powered bass and overpowered everything-else.

It's frustrating that market forces are creating the choice between a less convenient, less capable, less durable media and a lesser recording.

 

[highfigh]

I suspect that's generally the result of DR compression being done to make the CDs sound "louder".

Remember: there's zero difference between under-powered bass and overpowered everything-else.

It's frustrating that market forces are creating the choice between a less convenient, less capable, less durable media and a lesser recording.

I'm not referring to new CDs, it's the stuff that came out in the '80s. Compression/limiting is done after the basic tracks have been recorded- it's the only way a pristine copy of the performance can be saved and they like to use different equipment when needed. It's the reason for all of the racks in a studio- each engineer has their favorites and they all sound different- same with reverb, delays, vibrato/tremolo, distortion, time-based effects like flanging, phase shifters, chorus, etc. With a digital workstation, they often use plug-ins, which are virtual versions of classic equipment. It's interesting to hear various versions in quick succession- in the hands of someone who is well-versed in the software platform, it's much faster than using tape.

The artist wants better and the market wants more. Hard to reconcile the two.

 

[3db]

I stop playing my vinyl collection because my then POS turntable was beginning to hurt the albums as it wasn't tracking poperly. I put them aside for about 7 years until I bought my ProJect Xpression with the carbn fiber tone-arm. I was so impressed in its capabilitites that I started buying used vinyl on mass. Some blues albums I bought cannot be found digitally. Those I put on cassette so I can here them on my two other setups that did not have a turntable. Talking about going back to analog. I seldom play CDs anymore as I have them ripped to hard drives.

I dig through the used vinyl and used CD bins. Its interesting and lots of fun.

 

[VonMagnum]

The main reason I eventually bought my LP rig is that I found out one of the groups I loved as a child (Wild Cherry) had three other albums I didn't know about (never released on CD) and they were easy to find new in shrink wrap on LP and since I wanted to hear them, I decided NOW was the time (whereas I put off getting a deck for years because the records I had were already in my collection on CD so it was just a matter of is it worth it to find out they sound the same or only slightly better/worse.

Overall, I'd say the latter has been true. A good record made of a recording that's already good sounding on CD approaches the CD quality on a good deck. An over compressed recording can sound much better on vinyl. Differently mastered LPs can sound better (I still maintain my 30th Anniversary DSOTM is the best version I've got and I have other people's high-end dumps of the Mobile Fidelity versions on more expensive rigs than mine, but this is mostly due to the crazy good bass I get on my 30th version; I suppose that could be my cartridge, but it doesn't exhibit extra bass on other albums so I doubt it).

But even the best better sounding LPs sound identical when recorded off that deck and played back digitally so it's not the digital formats (as crazy sounding audiophiles/vinylphiles seem to think), but how they're mastered (and of course poor lossy formats can further screw things up if the bitrate is too low). But blaming the format on mastering decisions by record execs (make it louder!!!) does digital audio a disservice. 24/96 is NOT needed on the playback end. I recorded my own album at 24/96 and aimed for sound quality, but it sounds the same at 16/48 and 16/44.1 as it does at 24/96. The extra word length gave me more flexibility while recording (less likely to hit the rails). Even so, I recorded and preserved my records at 24/96 ALAC "just in case."

 

[DIY Junky]

I love Rush Exit Stage Left on Vinyl Talk about BASS. .and Metric sounds great on Vinyl as well. I am finding that the artist that care about sound quality are putting out albums as doubles and only put 3 or 4 songs on a side. Remember the Cheap K-Tell albums that crammed 12 songs on a side . The newer heavy 140 gram pressings seam to wear better and sound better to me. I love the mechanical connection of vinyl. And we are putting USA jobs back to work

 

[GrimSurfer]

One thing I notice when I listen to vinyl is in the low end- it's definitely not lacking and in some cases, the bass on the CD is actually weaker, although I haven't bought many "remastered" CDs and I know they often sound much better than the original. When I listen to classical, the consistency is better, though. Jazz was always less consistent- some labels had a 'sound' that was clearly obvious.

It's entirely possible but there is literature out in the acoustic sciences community that says when one end of the audible spectrum is boosted, the other end is perceived to be weaker.

Since nobody would argue that CDs are capable of higher frequencies than vinyl, this phenomenon is worth consideration. It also explains why some people feel that vinyl is much better in the mid range (slightly softer lows and much softer highs make the middle seem fuller).

I've been burned enough by remastered CDs enough to give them a wide berth (except for Steve Wilson's stuff, which is excellent). I also try to avoid early AAD CDs -- they were mastered for vinyl and sound poor. Ditto for mid to late 90s rock/pop due to that nut job Phil Spector's wall of sound nonsense.

Some might ask why CDs are more vexed by poor recording techniques than vinyl. It's because the format allowed all sorts of idiocy. When you're paying big dollars for a lathe or metal press, you make darned sure you get things as well dialled in as possible. When you have a stack of polycarbonate and a bunch of drives, mistakes only cost a few dollars.

But when it's done right, as it is 60-70% of the time with DDD, the dynamic range, fidelity, and timing accuracy of CDs is quite impressive.

 

[davidscott]

I stop playing my vinyl collection because my then POS turntable was beginning to hurt the albums as it wasn't tracking poperly. I put them aside for about 7 years until I bought my ProJect Xpression with the carbn fiber tone-arm. I was so impressed in its capabilitites that I started buying used vinyl on mass. Some blues albums I bought cannot be found digitally. Those I put on cassette so I can here them on my two other setups that did not have a turntable. Talking about going back to analog. I seldom play CDs anymore as I have them ripped to hard drives.

I dig through the used vinyl and used CD bins. Its interesting and lots of fun.

Agreed I also look through the used CD and LP bins at local half price books. I found some really nice recordings.

 

[VonMagnum]

Goodwill often has old records. I picked up an original I left my Heart in San Francisco LP by Tony Bennett (1962 Mono) for like 50 cents. Cleaned it off it looks just like new again (little or no scratches).

 

[GrimSurfer]

Agreed I also look through the used CD and LP bins at local half price books. I found some really nice recordings.

Blame streaming... a huge number of people are ditching their physical format music, players, and buying a Sonos or HomePod. This is putting a lot of physical format music back into circulation, at incredibly low prices.

 

[davidscott]

Blame streaming... a huge number of people are ditching their physical format music, players, and buying a Sonos or HomePod. This is putting a lot of physical format music back into circulation, at incredibly low prices.

All the better for us.