Integrated Amp discussion...

[PENG]

Yes, it's this fact. The fact that it costs less, but from the same manufacturer that makes me think the market is being driven towards AVR’s. I understand that if you’re making only stereo amps, you won’t sell much and you have to fix your price accordingly. But IMO (and this is just a very subjective opinion) if Yamaha made an amp as in your pic and stacked it with stereo music oriented features and a reasonable price, I think it would sell more of these and wouldn’t in fact lose money because of the lower price.

Remember, in another thread you say that stereo amps are almost stripped AVR’s today, so it should cost less, right? Because it would just be reducing features and putting on a pretty face plate.

I would agree that the crowd here is extra hard on the idea of not buying what you don’t need. I remember I tried to explain this once but failed. In my eyes, even if SQ is not higher, buying a multi channel AVR is like living alone, not planning a family and buying an eight seats minivan. I just don’t need it. Six seats are going to be driven around empty for no good reason.

And I don’t really mind all-in-one’s or integrated or feature packed amp, I’m not a purist. I’d just want to get what I’ll use.

Totally agreed, but only if cost is not a consideration. I believe the "crowd" is only having their say because you can have a 2017 x4400h or sr7012 for under 1k, so just take the tuner out and put the thing in a chassis to hide the things not to be used, a fan or 2 for improved reliability, and you get a great integrated amp. Just kidding, but not totally..

 

[PENG]

I'm not all that into comparing 2ch with AVR's. I'm trying to add some new dimension to this topic. It's not about "pure 2ch vs. all inclusive AVR's". I don't mind features, but I wonder why I don't see more of these "music only" amps with all the "music orientated" features. THOSE are missing.

And since you said a lot of cheaper 2ch are stripped AVR's, you could have a nice stereo amp with everything I listed and it could be cheaper for the price of everything video related. I think there's a market for these. I could be judging the world through my needs, though.

They are kind of doing it but just not with the price, and to a large extent their prices look high because of the price drop of the one year outdated avrs, otherwise it may be a no brainer to get those AVR derived 2 channel integrated amps.

 

[killdozzer]

their prices look high because of the price drop of the one year outdated avrs

I didn't understand this, how is it connected? I think that amps would even hold value better than AVR's. Receivers are being further developed all the time, but an amp that still has the old phono inputs and adds the bass management, sub out and a DAC is safe for few years.

 

[PENG]

Totally agreed, but only if cost is not a consideration. I believe the "crowd" is only having their say because you can have a 2017 x4400h or sr7012 for under 1k, so just take the tuner out and put the thing in a chassis to hide the things not to be used, a fan or 2 for improved reliability, and you get a great integrated amp. Just kidding, but not totally..

To clear things up, an example may help.
Let's say the A-S801 is comparable to the X4400H, SR7012 or RX-A2070. The A-S801's street price is around $900, the two AVRs are priced around $1600-$2000 when current, but about $900 to 1,000 when 1 year outdated and on deep discount.

So the AVR derived/stripped down A-S801 is in fact much cheaper than the two comparable AVR (for 2 ch use), and would have been an easy choice if I only need a two channel amp. In practice, I may find it not an easy choice, because the undesirable AVRs (due to so many featurea I don't need/use) can be had at deep discounts when 1 year outdated but brand new with factory warranty.

So again, I agree with you that if an (not all, just some) integrated is in fact a stripped down AVR, they should be cheaper than AVRs. I am simply saying that they already are, to an extent, but they don't get discounted like AVRs do when outdated by a year or 2.

 

[PENG]

I think that amps would even hold value better than AVR's. Receivers are being further developed all the time, but an amp that still has the old phono inputs and adds the bass management, sub out and a DAC is safe for few years.

Of course, but please note that my post#261 wasn't about that at all. I referred only to the part you said stereo amps that are stripped down AVRs should cost less.

 

[GrimSurfer]

What do you figure has a higher sales volume, the A-S801 or its AVR counterpart? And by how much (a lot more, a bit more etc)?

 

[PENG]

What do you figure has a higher sales volume, the A-S801 or its AVR counterpart? And by how much (a lot more, a bit more etc)?

@M Code may be able to shed light on this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm out. This is not what I had in mind.

I hope you didn't snub me like this because I bothered you. If so, I'm sorry. Perhaps some other time, some other thread.

I didn't say much only because I wasn't sure how to answer your question.

Well, I agree that the idea sounds good in a "perfect" world. But reality is another matter.

For me, the perfect preamp is a pre-pro like the DataSAT/ATI/Monolith HTP-1, except without any room correction (no Dirac or any room correction). But the price of the Monolith HTP-1 is already $3K.

This Pre-pro mainly has HDMI and XLR connectors. They removed so many connectors and features that are found in AVRs. But instead of costing less money for having less features, it costs a lot more.

Is there a preamp that is pretty close to what you would consider "perfect"? No tuner, no amp, less features, etc?

 

[highfigh]

Yes, it's this fact. The fact that it costs less, but from the same manufacturer that makes me think the market is being driven towards AVR’s. I understand that if you’re making only stereo amps, you won’t sell much and you have to fix your price accordingly. But IMO (and this is just a very subjective opinion) if Yamaha made an amp as in your pic and stacked it with stereo music oriented features and a reasonable price, I think it would sell more of these and wouldn’t in fact lose money because of the lower price.
one, not planning a family and buying an eight seats minivan. I just don’t need it. Six seats are going to be driven around empty for no good reason.

And I don’t really mind all-in-one’s or integrated or feature packed amp, I’m not a purist. I’d just want to get what I’ll use.

I agree with not buying what isn't needed. Some rooms aren't right for a surround system, which is my case but I also don't want to use surround unless I can really do it right and that would be expensive.

They sell more AVRs because most people don't want to devote more space to their system, due to WAF and other factors. A stereo system IS NOT a focal point of a married couple's life, not of a busy family with kids unless it comes with one of the partners and in many cases, I suspect it would be short-lived unless the one who is interested in having it is the dominant partner with 'dominant' meaning 'bread-winner'. Younger guys who had recently moved out of their parents' house would have a stack of audio gear as tall as they were and they were proud of it. It often had signal processors like dbx or other dynamic range enhancer, some kind of equalizer, separate preamp/power amp/tuner/cassette, turntable and sometimes, an open reel machine. Some had more than one cassette and/or turntable. Try that with a wife, now. Might happen in some places, but when the woman has equal say, it's going in the basement or a room where most of their guests will never go.

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's likely generational too. Time has worn down my wife to the point where I can get away with just about anything with my 2.1 set up except towers. Heck, she bought me my sub (I picked it out though ) as a bday present.

The whole thing is in the living room. It's the most prominent feature of the living room, other than the fireplace.

She agreed to a larger flat screen for the family room too. But she'd exercise her veto if I started shopping for a killer ATMOS rig to replace my modest sound bar/sub... not that I'm into that sort of thing.

This is all because she/we grew up with "stereos" and TVs, so any advancements in these areas aren't new but evolutionary. So it's natural to upgrade and replace when major improvements occur.

5.1, 7.1? That's crazy talk, which I get on several levels.

 

[everettT]

My better half always makes a comment when I upgrade the remote controls about every 4 years. It's always, " I just dont understand why we need to". Let me tell you if one gets misplaced it's a hoot to watch. Never realizes how macros are making everyone's life easier.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do think something's missing in the market today.

1. Sub output for 2.1 system
2. phono stage
3. Internal DAC
4. USB-B connection as PC is often used in playing music
5. enough inputs for other sources
6. Headphones
7. beefy 4ohm capable amp of at least 2 x 80W into 8

sincerely wouldn't mind if it was an integrated.

So basically an AVR minus the Tuner, DSP, EQ, Video circuits?

Or an Integrated amp with USB-B and DAC.

Most mid-level AVRs have Phono, DAC, USB, Inputs, Headphones, and 4 ohm Amps.

 

[GrimSurfer]

A tuner, DSP, EQ, and video take up a lot of real estate in a chassis!

 

[Steve81]

The A-S801's street price is around $900, the two AVRs are priced around $1600-$2000 when current, but about $900 to 1,000 when 1 year outdated and on deep discount.

Seems like that steep drop in value would also tend to hold down the pricing of current AVR models. It's hard for a consumer to justify spending too much on a product that's going to be outdated in a couple of years, and where the manufacturer has to slash prices to the bone just to move the leftovers from last year.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Makes a lot of sense.

The flip side of the equation is the audio amp. Longer product life, so time to recoup development costs. Stable technology eases tech transfer between product cycles. That's why extra development time and better quality parts/design is warranted... you can't say "it's crap, but we'll get past it next year when the product changes" because that can take years.

 

[<eargiant]

If I felt the need to overlook all the extra features and drawbacks of an AVR (that I don't need for a 2 channel set-up) just to get a better "deal" than a comparable integrated I wouldn't bother with a new AVR.

I would just buy one of the many used pre-HDMI made in Japan AVRs out there (which usually had a more robust build quality) for about $50-$100 and be done with it. There's a good chance that if it was not abused it will outlast a new AVR anyway. If it dies, no big loss.

 

[M Code]

What do you figure has a higher sales volume, the A-S801 or its AVR counterpart? And by how much (a lot more, a bit more etc)?

EZ question...
The AVRs outsell the amplifiers 10 to 1...
Note that the broad line of Yamaha integrated amplifiers were designed primarily for the Euro Far East markets not North America... In certain export markets having a tuner is not important. Also since the integrated amplifiers have less AV/HDMI technology hype so their circuits don't require updating every year like the North America AVR market so the product life cycle of an integrated amplifier is much longer.

Just my $0.02..

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

...."In certain export markets having a tuner is not important."

Yes, such as Norway. Terrestrial FM radio in that country is gone.

 

[killdozzer]

Is there a preamp that is pretty close to what you would consider "perfect"? No tuner, no amp, less features, etc?

I must admit that until I saw you mentioning stereo rcvr's in another post, I completely forgot about that bunch. They DO cover a lot of what I'd like to see in my amp. I don't need all those streaming services compatibility, but who knows. Also I really don’t like the radio ga ga.

I would never go for a separate preamp unless it was for good looks.

Since you’ve asked what would come close to perfect, I’ll say that stereo rcvr’s lack the looks. If I would ever found one with the looks and an USB B input (most of those AVR’s have USB A which is for memory sticks and such, which I hate, and they always put it on the front panel which I also hate - when you connect your PC through an USB B the amp installs an audio players software on your pc so when you play a song it sends it digital to the amp’s DAC – this idea I like) I would go for it. I wouldn’t mind the radio if I could have a guarantee that the radio signal won’t be picked up anywhere in the chain, not even in the slightest, but I'd rather drop it..

What I’d like to find is an uncompromised amp (in every sense, down to the cooling and ventilating), it would be integrated and it would have all the features I listed plus the looks. Imagine a McIntosh integrated MA5300:

Plus sub-out, plus bass management, and one of the more successful room corrections, plus an MM setting for the TT, it has the MC, but I’d like both if ever needed. And I want it for 2k (I know).

I would never ever change an amp like this (which is probably why I'm not interesting to the market). I’m not into immersion, multichannel and I’m not into HT.

 

[John Parks]

I must admit that until I saw you mentioning stereo rcvr's in another post, I completely forgot about that bunch. They DO cover a lot of what I'd like to see in my amp. I don't need all those streaming services compatibility, but who knows. Also I really don’t like the radio ga ga.

I would never go for a separate preamp unless it was for good looks.

Since you’ve asked what would come close to perfect, I’ll say that stereo rcvr’s lack the looks. If I would ever found one with the looks and an USB B input (most of those AVR’s have USB A which is for memory sticks and such, which I hate, and they always put it on the front panel which I also hate - when you connect your PC through an USB B the amp installs an audio players software on your pc so when you play a song it sends it digital to the amp’s DAC – this idea I like) I would go for it. I wouldn’t mind the radio if I could have a guarantee that the radio signal won’t be picked up anywhere in the chain, not even in the slightest, but I'd rather drop it..

What I’d like to find is an uncompromised amp (in every sense, down to the cooling and ventilating),it would be integrated and it would have all the features I listed plus the looks. Imagine a McIntosh integrated MA5300:

View attachment 28422

Plus sub-out, plus bass management, and one of the more successful room corrections, plus an MM setting for the TT, it has the MC, but I’d like both if ever needed. And I want it for 2k (I know).

I would never ever change an amp like this (which is probably why I'm not interesting to the market). I’m not into immersion, multichannel and I’m not into HT.

Sorry pardner - I don't think it exists at your desired price point. The closest would be the Yamaha R-N803, but the phono is MM and it does not have USB B, but a LAN input to play files (DSD inluded) directly from your computer. It does have YPAO, though. As for looks... Eye of the beholder, man.

Next would be the Outlaw Audio RR2160. It has everything you listed except room correction (it does have analog bass management, though). I do not know if it is available in your part of the world, but I really like the look:

Then there are offerings from Arcam and McIntosh (that MAC7200 is sweet!) but we are severely breaking your bank! I realize this was an intellectual exercise more than anything, but it is still fun to spend someone else's cash dough!

Whoops! I saw "radio" (not the fact that you don't want one) and thought "receiver" - never mind!