Integrated Amp discussion...

[GrimSurfer]

I've heard the HA1 in a demo room, seemed like very capable product. I'm getting past the point of diminishing returns with electronics for the most part.

Good point. An audiophile who has the wisdom to know they're at this point will save a great deal of time and money trying to find that elusive 0.1% (which may never be found).

 

[highfigh]

LOL. I can see that pi$$ing off the band. It might be a survivable moment if Cat Stevens was sting up, but I'd sure hate to deal with QOTSA in a similar situation. Might lead to a bit of aggro, as a Brit would say.

Bass players are pretty particular, and their role in keeping the band together musically is often overlooked. So I can see why they'd want a little more control over their rig.

Have you seen Homme with Them Crooked Vultures? Make note of the drummer and bass player-

 

[everettT]

The main culprits are the Tuner and the chassis itself.

The Tuner will make it sound sonically inferior in every way and the AVR-looking chassis will also make it sound sonically inferior.

If you want something to sound sonically superior regardless of price, you must place it into an amp chassis (not AVR) and you must remove the Tuner at all cost!

Screw the speakers and subs. It's all about amp chassis without tuners.

So if I purchase new chassis and a couple of power supply's and separate them out it would work. So for around 1k I can break down a denon x3400 and be good.

 

[everettT]

Have you seen Homme with Them Crooked Vultures? Make note of the drummer and bass player-

Great show!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if I purchase new chassis and a couple of power supply's and separate them out it would work. So for around 1k I can break down a denon x3400 and be good.

And you would have to change the name on the faceplate to something like "Simaudio".

Remember when Simaudio took the Denon AVR-2809 and turned it into an $18K pre-pro?

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

 

[everettT]

And you would have to change the name on the faceplate to something like "Simaudio".

Remember when Simaudio took the Denon AVR-2809 and turned it into an $18K pre-pro?

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

That was one of the worst clone jobs.

 

[highfigh]

Here's something I read on the Electrical Engineering forum a while back:

"TIM seems to be exacerbated by amplifiers that don't have much frequency headroom above the highest desired frequency, and a high global feedback ratio."

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/156643/what-is-transient-intermodulation-distortion

The guy who wrote this has a Master's in Electrical Engineering and participates on the EE forum. So there might be something to what he's saying. It certainly appears to make sense from a feedback design perspective.

It also helps explain why so many AB manufacturers produce amps capable of output well beyond the audible range (which puzzled me until I read more about TID). Even my modest AB amp, from the 90s, lists TID as "unmeasurable low" in its spec sheet. Makes sense, given that it is a wideband feedback design (freq response of 0.5-150 kHz and a power bandwidth of 10-100 kHz).

That got me thinking about what might happen when filters are put in place that limit frequency headroom in a Class D amp.

In light of the fact that notes have overtones, it never made sense to me that an amplifier could barely do better than 20KHz and be considered 'great' or 'excellent'.Having said that, there are no notes that have such a high fundamental that 20KHz is too low for the 1st harmonic, but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc become a problem. I wish I had copied the specs from an old Sony integrated amp I had- the response in the power band was shown as 10Hz-100KHz, +/- .1dB and overall frequency response was .1Hz-200KHz, +/-1dB. It was one of the first amplifiers to have a PWM power supply and when I had it tested on a BPi distortion analyzer, its output at rated distortion was 176W/channel, even though it was rated at 100W/channel.

If the volume control wasn't such a PITA to clean, I might still have it- I would like to have heard it with my current speakers.

 

[highfigh]

The main culprits are the Tuner and the chassis itself.

The Tuner will make it sound sonically inferior in every way and the AVR-looking chassis will also make it sound sonically inferior.

If you want something to sound sonically superior regardless of price, you must place it into an amp chassis (not AVR) and you must remove the Tuner at all cost!

Screw the speakers and subs. It's all about amp chassis without tuners.

Come to think of it, all you have to do is put the insides of an AVR into an Amp chassis and it will sound sonically superior.

It must be the superior metal that conducts the audio signals better through the cerebral cortex.

This makes me think you have something against tuners. Bad childhood experience?

I'd like to see a manufacturer design a tuner for my place- I have found that best reception comes from using as little antenna as possible- I'm about 1/2 mile from an antenna farm. It's hard to have good reception at the higher end and also at the college station I listen to (low power).

Knowing that integrated amps were made for those who didn't want to pay for a tuner, or to allow them to choose one that would work best in their location, I have to say that I have seen some pretty nice ones over the decades.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This makes me think you have something against tuners. Bad childhood experience?

You know I was kidding, right?

I was just saying that if you remove the tuner section and place everything into an amp chassis, the component will magically transform into an integrated amp.

 

[highfigh]

And you would have to change the name on the faceplate to something like "Simaudio".

Remember when Simaudio took the Denon AVR-2809 and turned it into an $18K pre-pro?

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/simaudio-moon-cp-8-processor

Did you ever see the Behringer A500 power amp that was supposedly modified into something REALLY special?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/behringer-a500-and-linn-audio-lanh-500-the-same.62407/

 

[highfigh]

You know I was kidding, right?

I wasn't sure, with all of the emoticons.......and the comments.

 

[highfigh]

Perhaps that's how they get the performance levels specified.

The early Sansui stuff was groundbreaking. Too bad they were produced at a time when solid state was perceived as crap (lots of it was, but some of it was still lght years ahead of Class A stuff).

You're separating solid state from ClassA?

One of the problems with Sansui and some other brands (HK is another), is their direct-coupled designs tended to be like a dynamite fuse when a component failed- straight up the line from the outputs. Then, they came out with the R-series of receivers and it was all over- that stuff was really crap.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Unless listening to the radio is important, it doesn't make sense to have a tuner. An RF tuner is just another circuit. It takes up space, which disrupts air flow and gets in the way of more efficient PCB traces. It costs money to design and build -- money that could be applied to things like a slightly better power supply etc.

This logic doesn't just apply to the tuning section. It applies everywhere, perhaps even more so to sub components that are still subject to Year-on-Year improvements (like DACs).

KIS principle saves money, maximizes value, less to go wrong, gets one closer to a "straight wire with gain"...

 

[everettT]

Did you ever see the Behringer A500 power amp that was supposedly modified into something REALLY special?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/behringer-a500-and-linn-audio-lanh-500-the-same.62407/

I have one and I'm fortunate that I hadn't had any of the reported board issues. Great amp that can be had below $200. My only complaint was the looks so I painted the face plate.

Edit: those heat sinks kept the unit cool efficiently.

 

[killdozzer]

That was one of the worst clone jobs.

Oh yeah?! Tell that to George Lucas.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did you ever see the Behringer A500 power amp that was supposedly modified into something REALLY special?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/behringer-a500-and-linn-audio-lanh-500-the-same.62407/

They should have placed the internal parts of that cheap amp into an amp chassis. Talk about a lazy job.

Take a Crown, QSC, or Yamaha pro amp and place it into a real amp chassis.

My silver PCs sound so much better than any AVR because they look more like big amps. Doesn't hurt to place them near high-end speakers, not cheap speakers.

 

[<eargiant]

Even when FM was king any manufacturer that made a receiver had a superior model that was an integrated amp with a separate tuner. There are hundreds of examples out there. The integrated usually had superior everything internally vs the receiver. Times have not changed that dramatically to alter this business model.

Not only that, most of the stand alone tuners out there have always been dramatically better than the tuners available in the comparable receiver of that brand. But both were surely better than the poor excuse for a Tuner that is found in AVRs today.

And I'm not even getting into phono stages if they still even put them in there. I know my Denon 3803 has one but it is terrible.

Receivers have always been and still are a compromise. Why would someone buy a receiver over an integrated if they don't need all the extra features? I know I wouldn't trade filter capacitance, quality heatsinks, more robust outputs and reduced complexity for features I don't need or want. Sure, if I need to run video through it I'll get a receiver, if not- why?

I challenge anyone to go to the bottom of the page in the link below and look at the tuners in the rankings. Then find me a receiver from the same manufacturer (or any manufacturer then or now) that has an equivalent tuner. (especially the higher ranked tuners). Or find the matching integrated and show me the comparable receiver that is better.

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/standings.html

Usually, as goes the reduced tuner quality in these receivers (all-in one units) so do the amp sections and everything else in there. BTW when these tuners were made the Receiver was king (at least in America) so the sales volume/cost argument I hear so often about AVRs is a moot point.

Are there isolated unscrupulous examples out there? Sure, but that is not the norm.

 

[GrimSurfer]

. Why would someone buy a receiver over an integrated if they don't need all the extra features? I know I wouldn't trade filter capacitance, quality heatsinks, more robust outputs and reduced complexity for features I don't need or want.

Exactly!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why would someone buy a receiver over an integrated if they don't need all the extra features?

Except for the cool aesthetics, why would anyone spend a lot more money buying integrated amps when AVRs sound at least as good and cost a lot less?

I guess we could argue forever about which ones actually sound better. Or we could look at actual measurements instead of hearsay and opinions.

I've own 4 integrated amps in the past. They look very cool. There is nothing wrong with owning them. But most high quality integrated amps usually cost over $1,200 even years ago.

And for most people, AVRs like the Yamaha RX-A1000/2000 or Denon 3000/4000 series on sale for under $1K would have a lot more POWER output and sound at least as good as any $2K Integrated amp. Don't even compare them to cheap so-called integrated amps under $1K.

Personally, on the topic of features, I don't care for Tuners, Phono, RCA connectors, Optical or Coaxial connectors, Room EQ (Dirac, Trinnov, Lyngdorf, ARC, Audyssey),DSP, and most things.

Just give me XLR I/O, HDMI I/O, Ethernet, Dolby Atmos, DSU, DTSX, and NeuralX.

 

[everettT]

Except for the cool aesthetics, why would anyone spend a lot more money buying integrated amps when AVRs sound at least as good and cost a lot less?

I guess we could argue forever about which ones actually sound better. Or we could look at actual measurements instead of hearsay and opinions.

I've own 4 integrated amps in the past. They look very cool. There is nothing wrong with owning them. But most high quality integrated amps usually cost over $1,200 even years ago.

And for most people, AVRs like the Yamaha RX-A1000/2000 or Denon 3000/4000 series on sale for under $1K would have a lot more POWER output and sound at least as good as any $2K Integrated amp. Don't even compare them to cheap so-called integrated amps under $1K.

Personally, on the topic of features, I don't care for Tuners, Phono, RCA connectors, Optical or Coaxial connectors, Room EQ (Dirac, Trinnov, Lyngdorf, ARC, Audyssey),DSP, and most things.

Just give me XLR I/O, HDMI I/O, Ethernet, Dolby Atmos, DSU, DTSX, and NeuralX.

Wait you evolved from all analog? This is Trumps America