Testing whether the speakers work as intended?

[Verdinut]

I would do as others have suggested and try turning off YPAO. Also, this is super minor, but I would re-adjust the distances to all be the same and set the center channel to small. The center channel shouldn't have as much bass as the towers. QUOTE]

I have several classical concerts on blu-ray and on some of them there is at times more bass from the center speaker than from either the left or the right one. One example is a Beethoven symphony where the percussionist on the drums is at the back center of the orchestra. Note that I'm using 3 identical full range front speakers.

 

[everettT]

The right speaker contintued to

I'd pull the driver to check the phase and wiring in general.

 

[TLS Guy]

He indicates the center also sounds like it has no bass at all. If so, then he has many dead drivers? That seemed unlikely.

Lets deal with the right and left. We will deal with the center later.

 

[TLS Guy]

The right speaker contintued to lack bass, even with the left signal cable

So to exclude the room you need to move the speakers. However, I'm pretty sure you have a bad speaker. If you want you can skip moving the speakers and do the simple time honored battery test. It is very simple.

1). Disconnect the right and left speakers at the terminals.

2). Connect a few feet of speaker cable to each speaker in turn, make sure both ends have bare wires.

3.) Remove the speaker grills from both speakers, so you can observe the drivers.

4). Take a 1.5 volt battery.

5). Hold the wire that goes to the -ve terminal of the speaker to the -ve terminal of the battery.

6). Now touch and release the +ve wire to the +ve of the battery.

7). Now observe the woofer speaker cones. As you touch the wire to the +ve terminal the woofer cones should fly forward, and go back with each release of the wire from the +ve battery terminal. You can do this as many times as you want until you are certain of your observation.

Any woofer cone that does not go out and in as connect and disconnect to the battery is either disconnected, or blown. Most likely disconnected.

Now speakers are nearly always connected with spade connectors and not soldered, which I think they should be. These are very prone to fall off.

So you will need to remove any driver that does not move and see if is connected to the crossover at the speaker and the crossover. Reconnect any wires that have come off.

Now if there are no wires off, then the next most likely problem is a dry solder joint in the crossover. If this is a possibility, then I can guide you though this later. At that point you will need a multimeter. This will still be very simple trouble shooting.

It would help if I know that model number of those Elac speakers if we get to that point.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Hi Verdinut, To actually help you solve this, I'm going to let TLS guy take over. He has an approach he would like to follow and I do think so many different opinions is confusing things.

Unrelated to your actual problem, and related solely to good setup, I would still set the center channel to small. It won't get rid of the bass, it simply redirects it. While the driver compliment of the Unifi is similar between the center and towers, they are not identical. The tower has one more midbass driver than the center channel. The enclosure of the towers is also larger. The Tower should still have more bass than the left or right channel. It also frees up some power on the receiver to direct to the left and right channels.

 

[Vinterbird]

If it stays with the speaker then its the speaker and not location. However the issue has been raised as to whether it is a room issue. I doubt it. I think you have a bad speaker. But now to test this latest hypothesis you will have to physically move the left speaker to the right and the right speaker to the left. If the fault moves with the speaker it is the speaker. If it stays in the same location it is the room.

You do need to be more precise in your replies. They are vague and open to misinterpretation. Answer my question exactly please, with the same language. The problem persists is NOT precise.

OK I see your latest post now. You need to test the room hypothesis and put your ears up against the speakers to see if you can identify a dead driver. I bet there is.

I am sorry my answers are not precise, English is not my native language and I do not know especially much about speaker terminology, so I am working within some limites.

I would do as others have suggested and try turning off YPAO. Also, this is super minor, but I would re-adjust the distances to all be the same and set the center channel to small. The center channel shouldn't have as much bass as the towers.

As another poster noted, it looks like there might be some aspects of your room, acoustically, that could be throwing off the response. It's really hard to tell without seeing measurements, so I'm guessing here. Doors don't necessarily cause problems, but they could. An opening in a wall is a really good way to "let the bass out" of the room. It's actually a trick that is sometimes intentionally used to reduce the impact of a reflection in the room called the primary axial mode which runs the longest length of the room and tends to cause both a cancelation and boost in the bass that is very significant. It doesn't actually matter if the door is on the front of the room or back of the room, the effect is the same.

In any case, all of this is conjecture until we see what is going on.

When running the test tones, you said it sounds like the bass only comes from one speaker. Can you get your head near the speakers when it runs and see if the woofer appears to be moving on the speaker that seems to lack bass? Maybe even put your finger lightly on the cone to feel. If you aren't feeling anything, then something is broken in the speaker. If you are, then it's just an acoustic problem.

So I tried some things:

Physically switched the speakers, so the left speaker went to where the right speaker was placed and vice versa. Each of the woofers, on both speakers move when playing music, so all of them are doing something.

But physically changing the positions seems to reveal, that it is a acustic problem. At least that is my observation from trying the different test tones.

 

[Verdinut]

Hi Verdinut, To actually help you solve this, I'm going to let TLS guy take over. He has an approach he would like to follow and I do think so many different opinions is confusing things.

Unrelated to your actual problem, and related solely to good setup, I would still set the center channel to small. It won't get rid of the bass, it simply redirects it. While the driver compliment of the Unifi is similar between the center and towers, they are not identical. The tower has one more midbass driver than the center channel. The enclosure of the towers is also larger. The Tower should still have more bass than the left or right channel. It also frees up some power on the receiver to direct to the left and right channels.

@Matthew J Poes ,

You meant to reply to Vinterbird, didn't you?

 

[TLS Guy]

I am sorry my answers are not precise, English is not my native language and I do not know especially much about speaker terminology, so I am working within some limites.




So I tried some things:

Physically switched the speakers, so the left speaker went to where the right speaker was placed and vice versa. Each of the woofers, on both speakers move when playing music, so all of them are doing something.

But physically changing the positions seems to reveal, that it is a acustic problem. At least that is my observation from trying the different test tones.

In that case the speakers seem to be OK. Drivers generally work or don't. But sometimes they make rasping noises.

Now and again a speaker can be over driven and some voice coil turns can become fused and lower the output. I have seen that at least three times.

If you want you can eliminate that possibility with a multimeter and connect it on the 1 to 100 ohm range and measure the resistance of the speaker. Note this is the DC resistance and NOT the impedance. Both speakers should have identical readings. If one speaker reads lower then the other, then the one with the lower reading has one or more damaged woofer voice coils.

I think though you are likely sorted out now.

 

[highfigh]

I've tried switching L and R cables, and the problem persist when doing that.




How can I determine if that happened?

Turn it it off and run it without YPAO. If it still happens, swap the speakers- if it still happens when the right speaker is on the left side, it's an acoustical phenomenon.

 

[JerryLove]

I don't think the sole problem is the difference between expectation and experience. Another part is that most people like the sound of normal room acoustics.

That would seem to be an argument against extensive room treatments. Also: in most audio recordings I've listened to, the room is already encoded in the media. I'm adding a second room to that room.

Again, I would reference headphones.

So you can hear how neutral a sound system is in room, even in a room you have never been in before, so can still sense neutral tonality, its just that occurs past your acclimation to whatever acoustic environment that you are in. I should probably have emphasized the fact that you hear through the room; once you get used to it, you don't really notice it anymore, and that can happen fast.

We have the same problem with color and shade. There are a variety of illusions based on that.

But again, this seems like an expectation issue. Maybe I'm just the odd-ball out... I like pure (as in revers-osmosis with nothing added back) water too.

 

[JerryLove]

You mentioned headphones. Research into headphone preferences by Harman, PSB, and Periodic Audio have all round that applying a similar response tilt increases a persons preference for the headphone. Dan Wiggins actually finds greater variability in this preference, including by region, but still finds there are preferences for certain curves.

OK. This says two things to me.

1) "live" sounds inferior to "replayed with adjustments".
2) That would indicate that you should EQ to some specific not-flat, not that you shouldn't EQ.

Now don’t get me wrong. If you like to eq your system and it sounds better to you, don’t let me dissuade you. You should do what sounds best to you.

Please understand that I'm less interested in preferences and more in understanding a consistent "how this makes sense". (though I suppose there's some element of preference added in). When I listened to the orchestra in the performance hall, I didn't find it lacking because the reflections off my counter at home were missing. But when I listen to it at home (remember, recorded in a hall, so those reflections are on the media), it will sound worse if I don't get the reflections off my counter?

Except, of course, that I'm going to want to put up some paneling to stop that reflection, which will make it sound better because that reflection, which it sounded worse without, is now gone.

You can understand how this would seem to not make much sense?

And then yes: I compare the entire thing to my experience listening to headphones (which not only remove room acoustics, but also isolate L and R sources unlike speakers) and, since I find that experience pleasant (though moreso in binaural recordings) wonder how that's possibly reconcilable.

 

[JerryLove]

You're back! How is everything?

Best of times. Worst of time.

Moved, changed jobs, had kids... you know, the usual.

Cleaned out a lot of the collection. Still have too many speakers (especially with the recent purchases for the home-theater).

How have you been doing?

 

[lovinthehd]

The wanting to hear my room thing I don't know about....not willing to dedicate my room to acoustics might be more like it, but it has to have sufficient furnishings to be not as acoustically ugly as some rooms I've seen photographs of (like some of the recent Paradigm marketing has shown in modern rooms). Treatments and eq have their place I think, the whole home reproduction thing is already full of compromises, especially in a room that serves multiple purposes other than audio. OTOH I can't really go for the headphone thing so much mostly because I just don't like wearing them but the times I've had in the past is to get rid of the room noise or eliminating my audio playback from bothering others rather than being aware that I was concentrating on particular sound qualities of the recording by removing the room.

 

[highfigh]

The wanting to hear my room thing I don't know about....not willing to dedicate my room to acoustics might be more like it, but it has to have sufficient furnishings to be not as acoustically ugly as some rooms I've seen photographs of (like some of the recent Paradigm marketing has shown in modern rooms). Treatments and eq have their place I think, the whole home reproduction thing is already full of compromises, especially in a room that serves multiple purposes other than audio. OTOH I can't really go for the headphone thing so much mostly because I just don't like wearing them but the times I've had in the past is to get rid of the room noise or eliminating my audio playback from bothering others rather than being aware that I was concentrating on particular sound qualities of the recording by removing the room.

When acoustical treatment won't be used unapologetically, knowing what kind of treatment needs to go where and also, what different kinds of furnishings will provide similar results works very well. If you need to absorb sound and you can put drapes over the windows in that area, make sure they're heavy enough to do the job. Maybe a sofa or chair can be used, if you don't have windows in that area. If you need diffusion, a book case can help.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Yes very

@Matthew J Poes ,

You meant to reply to Vinterbird, didn't you?

Yes very sorry. That was an autocorrection. Just rude of me to get that wrong and not catch it. tion

so are you settled now, everything is ok?

 

[Verdinut]

Yes very

Yes very sorry. That was an autocorrection. Just rude of me to get that wrong and not catch it. tion

so are you settled now, everything is ok?

No problem for me.

My system is pretty well set up. Later on, I'm thinking of getting a MiniDSP DDRC88A which contains the Dirac Live hardware/software, in order to obtain an overall better low frequency performance in my living room.

 

[PENG]

I can't count the number of times I have had to explain why you shouldn't EQ a speaker above 300-500hz (and not really much above 100hz). The most common response I get is...Why not? Isn't that what we hear? Nope! That is not what you hear, and that is why you shouldn't EQ it.

I read what Dr. Toole wrote about the same thing too, but I wouldn't take it out of context. I also would bet that the author of REW may disagree with you, as do other experts with PhD degrees in related fields. I know many people are parroting this thing above "don't eq above the Schroeder frequency blablabla...and citing reasons cited by Dr. Toole and others, but if guess if confronted, Dr. Toole will likely qualify his statements. I am not saying it is not an important point to consider, but like a lot of things, it depends..

REW is an amazing free tool, but there is no denying that it has caused a lot of problems too. Besides keeping a lot of good people up at night for no good reason, it's lead to a lot of misunderstanding.

That sounds fair, but I can claim the same about req software, lots of time people say they don't work, but really? Or just sometimes people don't know how to use them to benefit from them? You seem to be an expert on REW, so you must know if you compare FR plots with Audyssey (just an example, could be Dirac, Anthem's or REW' too) on and off, you may see that with it off, the bass may have some strong bumps that may just please the bass addicts who in turn may claim REQ took the life and punch right out, and that everyone should be better off turning them off, not realizing that there are people who prefer flatter FR including the low end.

In my own presentation on REW I actually try to dispell some common REW myths and talk about graphs people should stop interpreting. Like Waterfalls! Please everyone who reads this, stop using them. If you want to know why, go watch my video.

You may want to email JA at Stereophile about that too.

They are probably contributing more to confusion and misinterpretation than any other measurement graph (and there are particular acoustic experts who, quite frankly, are making this problem so much worse than it needs to be due to their own misunderstanding).

Imo that's a valid point, and I would like to watch your video.

Happy holidays!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I read what Dr. Toole wrote about the same thing too, but I wouldn't take it out of context. I also would bet that the author of REW may disagree with you, as do other experts with PhD degrees in related fields. I know many people are parroting this thing above "don't eq above the Schroeder frequency blablabla...and citing reasons cited by Dr. Toole and others, but if guess if confronted, Dr. Toole will likely qualify his statements. I am not saying it is not an important point to consider, but like a lot of things, it depends..



That sounds fair, but I can claim the same about req software, lots of time people say they don't work, but really? Or just sometimes people don't know how to use them to benefit from them? You seem to be an expert on REW, so you must know if you compare FR plots with Audyssey (just an example, could be Dirac, Anthem's or REW' too) on and off, you may see that with it off, the bass may have some strong bumps that may just please the bass addicts who in turn may claim REQ took the life and punch right out, and that everyone should be better off turning them off, not realizing that there are people who prefer flatter FR including the low end.



You may want to email JA at Stereophile about that too.



Imo that's a valid point, and I would like to watch your video.

Happy holidays!

John is part of our team at AVNirvana and peered my articles and video. He does not disagree with me. He has openly said he thinks eq above a certain point is a bad idea.

Atkinson also agrees with me.

 

[andyblackcat]

I am sorry my answers are not precise, English is not my native language and I do not know especially much about speaker terminology, so I am working within some limites.

So I tried some things:

Physically switched the speakers, so the left speaker went to where the right speaker was placed and vice versa. Each of the woofers, on both speakers move when playing music, so all of them are doing something.

But physically changing the positions seems to reveal, that it is a acustic problem. At least that is my observation from trying the different test tones.

Well can you see it everyone!?
Vinterbird, said and even I saw the problem was the room.

It as an opening to left side a doorway entrance and the right side oh dear bass sounds and other frequency wavelengths are going to pass though that glass window and create within m/s havoc to the sound system.

Moving it around in that room isn't going to solve it. That doorway to left needs a door in the hole and sealed at the bottom or around edges so the bass sound waves can easily slip though.

That window to right side at the back? But you not shown the whole room with pictures or better still a video is best with sound.

Its true about sound systems in rooms every room is different only your room has too many flaws that can easily been corrected if you are willing do that or you'll just have to put up with it.

 

[shadyJ]

I read what Dr. Toole wrote about the same thing too, but I wouldn't take it out of context. I also would bet that the author of REW may disagree with you, as do other experts with PhD degrees in related fields. I know many people are parroting this thing above "don't eq above the Schroeder frequency blablabla...and citing reasons cited by Dr. Toole and others, but if guess if confronted, Dr. Toole will likely qualify his statements. I am not saying it is not an important point to consider, but like a lot of things, it depends..

I have discussed this issue with Toole, and while I don't want to put words into his mouth as I don't know the entirety of his thoughts on this matter, I really don't believe he would say room correction equalization is worth it above schroeder frequencies in most situations. He thinks room correction should be avoided above the Schroeder Frequencies, and over time, I have come to agree with him. In fact, I would say that it should be used as little as possible below the transition frequency as well. He thinks that above the transition frequency, room correction equalization is just a band-aid for flawed speakers. There may be some bizarre acoustic environment where room correction equalization could benefit the sound above the transition frequency, but for good speakers that are properly setup in a normal room, both he and myself would advise people to stay away from room correction.