Testing whether the speakers work as intended?

[JerryLove]

There are a bunch of studies that cover this area, but one that really nails your questions is this one. It's a major paper. If you don't want to purchase it, you can still get the gist its contents from a google search about it, since there have been many articles written about it. The room causes a spectral tilt in the response that is what you expect to hear. if you are listening outdoors, that is a different scenario and your brain adjusts accordingly, and that would be like a flat response. If you countered the room response with your own alteration that gave the speaker an anechoic or outdoor response, I don't think you would enjoy that. This is covered in Floyd Toole's book as well, the third edition (well worth reading!)

So to be clear: the conclusion is that the sole problem is a broken expectation... a difference between what you think you will hear and what you hear?

Seems like that's something that would fade very quickly with repeated use as you adjusted to expect what would actually occur.

I'll google the paper in question; but I wonder if it's going to say what I just said above.

 

[shadyJ]

So to be clear: the conclusion is that the sole problem is a broken expectation... a difference between what you think you will hear and what you hear?

Seems like that's something that would fade very quickly with repeated use as you adjusted to expect what would actually occur.

I'll google the paper in question; but I wonder if it's going to say what I just said above.

I don't think the sole problem is the difference between expectation and experience. Another part is that most people like the sound of normal room acoustics. Outdoor sound is pretty dry, so most if not all people prefer the richness and ambiance of room acoustics. By the way, human hearing rapidly acclimates to room acoustics. We learn to hear through the room very quickly. So you can hear how neutral a sound system is in room, even in a room you have never been in before, so can still sense neutral tonality, its just that occurs past your acclimation to whatever acoustic environment that you are in. I should probably have emphasized the fact that you hear through the room; once you get used to it, you don't really notice it anymore, and that can happen fast.

 

[Vinterbird]

What is it you think is wrong? Static or popping in the drivers? Does the right sound lower than the left? Do you hear it all the time, or only in certain music or movies?

You can play tones at different frequencies to try to isolate a specific driver as being faulty. Also double check your wiring of course, and swap speakers to different channels to make sure it's not an amp/receiver issue.

If they're under warranty I don't suggest opening them for any inspection, but there's plenty you can troubleshoot from the outside.

The issue as I experinece it is, that all of the lower frequence / bass (I think, I am not well versed in the names or which part of the speaker is what) seems to be coming from the left side of the room, and nothing really coming from the right side. This appears no matter if it is music, movies or the similiar. I've only tested it with music and the "test tone" feature of my AVR.

So far I've tried switch L and R cables to see if it was the AVR but the issue persist.

My center channels also seems to lack the deeper tones, but there I simply just don't know if the speaker is just built to not do that.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I own the Acoustics and Psycoacustics of Speakers in Rooms, and have had brief interactions with the man himself (he posts on another forum, or used to at least). I've also done the bulk of the hearing training regimen he created as part of his studies.

The take-away I have from double-blind testing he conducted at HK was that the major issue with a negative effect was non-flat off-axis performance. I have even experimented with [purchased] speakers built around that premise by someone perhaps well described as an true believer in that regard


You seem to be on a different subject. This is not about the speaker's performance. This is the statement I responded to

"Very few people would enjoy a system that measures flat in room at the listening position. "

Can you point me at something that indicates that a non-flat performance is preferable to one which exactly reproduces the source material at the listening position?

I also wonder if the anecdotal experience that might support that isn't training.

I know a lot of people who dislike classical recordings where the mics are near the instruments and then the orchestra is placed in mixing. They much prefer stereo (usually with head-shaped baffels) in listening positions in performance halls. I am quite the opposite. I often think that my experience being *in* the pit when the music was being performed compared to most other's experience being in the audience creates an expectation of what is "better".

Further: where I do listen to recordings with strong room influences (such as in a cathedral); I must prefer headphones or a heavily deadened room. I suspect I would very much like an anechoic chamber for listening; though I would not be surprised if flat would be an aquired taste. Too much time with non-flat changes the pallet.


This feels a bit like a straw-man. You are arguing the conclusion by simply rejecting the premise.


This seems to tie into your earlier post rather than the one you are responding to here.

But I'm worried that you've just changed the goalposts.

You had "Nope! That [frquencies above 500Hz] is not what you hear "
You've said that EQing above 500Hz is bad, which I've asked for the reasoning for.
As I understand your reasoning in your more recent post, it's because "people take bad measurements". Is that an accurate understanding?

Indeed: didn't Toole's DB testing show in many ways the exact opposite? That speakers putting (measured) flat responses off axis were preferred over speakers which put (measured) non-flat off-axis response? How is this not at least a partial validation of a relationship between measured response and subjective listening preferences?

There's a vast gulf between "most people EQ wrong" and "EQing is bad".


Has he actually made that argument? Has he actually stated that no tool can measure sound usefully?

Did he do blind studies I'm unaware of that said the results of such EQ were universally bad?

I fear this paragraph includes things I have too little background with to agree or disagree.

Hey Jerry, I tried to pack a multitude of ideas into a single post and it appears it just created confusion. Much of this is not what I intended for you to get out of my remarks. Rather than re-explaining it, since it’s very involved, I will instead mention that I have a highly relevant article coming out around this on Audioholics. The article will discuss the way in which the human war perceived sound, how a typical measurement mic pics up and processes sound, and why these measurements (while highly reliable) are not s good reflection of what we hear in a room. It lightly addresses the idea of why EQ above the transition zone is a bad idea. The article was peer reviewed by Toole and is receiving a second review as we speak by Gene. I think you will find the article interesting, even if you disagree with its premise.

I also discuss this idea in my YouTube video on REW. I explain a bit about the different zones and the issues with what the mic is picking up once you get into the stochastic zone. You mentioned that my argument seemed to be predicated on the idea that most people take bad measurements. I would say it’s more complicated than that. Calling them bad measurements assumes better ones are possible by experts. That isn’t the case. The approach used by consumers (even when used by the best pros) have the same problem. They are “dumb” measurements and thus incapable of separating the room from the direct sound for EQ purposes while maintaining appropriate resolution over a sizable spatial region. The kinds of processing used by something like DIRAC could only be recreated by custom programming in a software like Matlab.

As for the comment James stated, that too is complicated and I mixed the ideas together because they are in fact somewhat related. First idea: a speaker that has a flat amplitude response anechoicly will have a tilted response with a rise of 1db per octave in a room. To get rid of this natural tilt you would have to apply a reverse shelf filter at 1db per octave. However, Tooles work found people prefer this, on average. It certainly isn’t true of everyone. There is a technical reason for why an anechoicly flat speaker measures with a tilt in room and it’s related to the way the sound reflects and resonates in small rooms (and is a separate issue from a speakers polar response). As James noted, our brain expects this behavior and so it expects the speakers to behave that way. It’s an explanation for why we prefer it (but this too is attempting to apply an objective science to a somewhat unknowable subjective preference). You mentioned headphones. Research into headphone preferences by Harman, PSB, and Periodic Audio have all round that applying a similar response tilt increases a persons preference for the headphone. Dan Wiggins actually finds greater variability in this preference, including by region, but still finds there are preferences for certain curves. Dan and I discussed the idea that hike construction in China might cause different response shaping and that this might partly explain the preference differences (Chinese prefer an uptilt in the high frequencies and less bass boost creating a “u” shaped response curve).

Now don’t get me wrong. If you like to eq your system and it sounds better to you, don’t let me dissuade you. You should do what sounds best to you. Even Tooles work was based on testing what average listeners preferred on average. A preference is a preference and not an absolute. If you don’t like it, they is fine. You didn’t build your system to make me happy. The article I wrote concluded in a similar fashion. There are technical reasons for why these things are true, but in the end it’s srguably academic. What matters is what the listener likes.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

The issue as I experinece it is, that all of the lower frequence / bass (I think, I am not well versed in the names or which part of the speaker is what) seems to be coming from the left side of the room, and nothing really coming from the right side. This appears no matter if it is music, movies or the similiar. I've only tested it with music and the "test tone" feature of my AVR.

So far I've tried switch L and R cables to see if it was the AVR but the issue persist.

My center channels also seems to lack the deeper tones, but there I simply just don't know if the speaker is just built to not do that.

Thanks. First thing I would check is speaker wire polarity. Make sure you haven't reversed the polarity on the speaker wire on the right channel. That can cause bass suckout. Check that the strand connecting the positive (red) terminal on the AVR is also the one going to the positive terminal on the speaker. Usually this strand has a stripe or is of a different color.

Check the same for the center channel also, but like you stated, those aren't really made to play much bass anyway. It could affect lower registers of human voice though.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The issue as I experinece it is, that all of the lower frequence / bass (I think, I am not well versed in the names or which part of the speaker is what) seems to be coming from the left side of the room, and nothing really coming from the right side. This appears no matter if it is music, movies or the similiar. I've only tested it with music and the "test tone" feature of my AVR.

So far I've tried switch L and R cables to see if it was the AVR but the issue persist.

My center channels also seems to lack the deeper tones, but there I simply just don't know if the speaker is just built to not do that.

Ok two questions. First, do you have subwoofers. It so, where are they placed?

If not, are the speakers located asymmetrically on a wall such that the bass heavy speaker is closer to a corner?

If the second point is true, it’s very common for a speaker placed in a cleaner to cause the bass to sound like it’s all coming from one side. There are a couple solutions. One is to use a couple subwoofers strategically placed. Another option is to apply bass equalization to each speaker separately. If your receiver has room correction built in, it should automatically do this. If not, you would likely need to hire someone to help you do that. Personally, I prefer the subwoofer route.

To test this, I would switch the left and right speakers as well as pull the left speaker out from the corner and away from the wall. The problem should go away when pulled out from the corner. The problem should persist in the left side when you switch speakers. That would show you that it’s not the speakers or receiver, it’s the room.

Since this is caused by bass buildup in the corner (if my theory is right for you) you can also acoustically treat it. That is hard to do, but basically you could add bass traps to the corner. For many people that won’t pass the WAF and is less effective than multiple subwoofers.

 

[Vinterbird]

Thanks. First thing I would check is speaker wire polarity. Make sure you haven't reversed the polarity on the speaker wire on the right channel. That can cause bass suckout. Check that the strand connecting the positive (red) terminal on the AVR is also the one going to the positive terminal on the speaker. Usually this strand has a stripe or is of a different color.

Check the same for the center channel also, but like you stated, those aren't really made to play much bass anyway. It could affect lower registers of human voice though.

I had the cables out and ran through them to be sure it was red-red and so on. So that seems to be correct.

Ok two questions. First, do you have subwoofers. It so, where are they placed?

If not, are the speakers located asymmetrically on a wall such that the bass heavy speaker is closer to a corner?

If the second point is true, it’s very common for a speaker placed in a cleaner to cause the bass to sound like it’s all coming from one side. There are a couple solutions. One is to use a couple subwoofers strategically placed. Another option is to apply bass equalization to each speaker separately. If your receiver has room correction built in, it should automatically do this. If not, you would likely need to hire someone to help you do that. Personally, I prefer the subwoofer route.

To test this, I would switch the left and right speakers as well as pull the left speaker out from the corner and away from the wall. The problem should go away when pulled out from the corner. The problem should persist in the left side when you switch speakers. That would show you that it’s not the speakers or receiver, it’s the room.

Since this is caused by bass buildup in the corner (if my theory is right for you) you can also acoustically treat it. That is hard to do, but basically you could add bass traps to the corner. For many people that won’t pass the WAF and is less effective than multiple subwoofers.

No subwoofer. I did run the auto-setup thing included with my AVR (Yamah RX 781, so it's the YPAO variant with multipositions)

I've attached pictures of the room situation with the speakers, hopefully that should be able to answer your theory. And I'll try dragging the speakers out into the room and test that out, thanks for the input.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I had the cables out and ran through them to be sure it was red-red and so on. So that seems to be correct.




No subwoofer. I did run the auto-setup thing included with my AVR (Yamah RX 781, so it's the YPAO variant with multipositions)

I've attached pictures of the room situation with the speakers, hopefully that should be able to answer your theory. And I'll try dragging the speakers out into the room and test that out, thanks for the input.

Hmm this actually doesn't fit my theory all that well.

Ok so it sounds bass heavy on the left side of the room? Can you show me a picture of the entire front wall, so I can see that wall all the way to the corner? Just trying to figure out what is going on.

Also, can you take a picture of the speaker terminals with the speakers all hooked up. Not that I don't believe you about it being hooked up correctly, I just want to see.

Finally, any chance you can go to the Yamaha on screen display and look at settings for YPAO. I want to see what it did for distance. I just want to make sure it didn't get a wacky measurement that somehow caused a phase problem. That happens sometimes.

 

[Vinterbird]

Hmm this actually doesn't fit my theory all that well.

Ok so it sounds bass heavy on the left side of the room? Can you show me a picture of the entire front wall, so I can see that wall all the way to the corner? Just trying to figure out what is going on.

Also, can you take a picture of the speaker terminals with the speakers all hooked up. Not that I don't believe you about it being hooked up correctly, I just want to see.

Finally, any chance you can go to the Yamaha on screen display and look at settings for YPAO. I want to see what it did for distance. I just want to make sure it didn't get a wacky measurement that somehow caused a phase problem. That happens sometimes.

Yes, it feels like all of the lower tones / bass is leaning left or so to speak. And when running the "test tone" function on the AVR it feels like the bass is missing on the right side during those tests.

I've attached images for the stuff you asked for, I hope they are useable.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, it feels like all of the lower tones / bass is leaning left or so to speak. And when running the "test tone" function on the AVR it feels like the bass is missing on the right side during those tests.

I've attached images for the stuff you asked for, I hope they are useable.

So now connect the left speaker to the right channel and the right speaker to the left channel, and see if the bass in now on the right and missing from the left. If that is what happens then your receiver is the problem and not the speaker.

If the problem stays with bass absent on the right then there is something wrong with the right speaker. So then you nee to put your ear up to the drivers on that side and see if the woofer is working. If not then most likely a connection has slipped off the speaker or crossover, or the woofer has failed.

If you use very simple logic you will determine very quickly if you have a receiver or speaker problem. Most of the posts above are not helpful and suffer from not doing obvious first things first. You never start to analyse a problem like this with a sweep tone!

 

[highfigh]

So to be clear: the conclusion is that the sole problem is a broken expectation... a difference between what you think you will hear and what you hear?

Seems like that's something that would fade very quickly with repeated use as you adjusted to expect what would actually occur.

I'll google the paper in question; but I wonder if it's going to say what I just said above.

You're back! How is everything?

 

[highfigh]

Hmm this actually doesn't fit my theory all that well.

Ok so it sounds bass heavy on the left side of the room? Can you show me a picture of the entire front wall, so I can see that wall all the way to the corner? Just trying to figure out what is going on.

Also, can you take a picture of the speaker terminals with the speakers all hooked up. Not that I don't believe you about it being hooked up correctly, I just want to see.

Finally, any chance you can go to the Yamaha on screen display and look at settings for YPAO. I want to see what it did for distance. I just want to make sure it didn't get a wacky measurement that somehow caused a phase problem. That happens sometimes.

He has a doorway to the left of and behind the left speaker- pretty sure YPAO over-compensated.

 

[Vinterbird]

So now connect the left speaker to the right channel and the right speaker to the left channel, and see if the bass in now on the right and missing from the left. If that is what happens then your receiver is the problem and not the speaker.

If the problem stays with bass absent on the right then there is something wrong with the right speaker. So then you nee to put your ear up to the drivers on that side and see if the woofer is working. If not then most likely a connection has slipped off the speaker or crossover, or the woofer has failed.

If you use very simple logic you will determine very quickly if you have a receiver or speaker problem. Most of the posts above are not helpful and suffer from not doing obvious first things first. You never start to analyse a problem like this with a sweep tone!

I've tried switching L and R cables, and the problem persist when doing that.

He has a doorway to the left of and behind the left speaker- pretty sure YPAO over-compensated.

How can I determine if that happened?

 

[snakeeyes]

I've tried switching L and R cables, and the problem persist when doing that.




How can I determine if that happened?

I would turn off YPAO.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I've tried switching L and R cables, and the problem persist when doing that.




How can I determine if that happened?

When you said the problem persisted, does that mean it stayed on the right side, or it stayed with the speaker you originally had on the right?

 

[Vinterbird]

When you said the problem persisted, does that mean it stayed on the right side, or it stayed with the speaker you originally had on the right?

The right speaker contintued to lack bass, even with the left signal cable

 

[TLS Guy]

If it stays with the speaker then its the speaker and not location. However the issue has been raised as to whether it is a room issue. I doubt it. I think you have a bad speaker. But now to test this latest hypothesis you will have to physically move the left speaker to the right and the right speaker to the left. If the fault moves with the speaker it is the speaker. If it stays in the same location it is the room.

You do need to be more precise in your replies. They are vague and open to misinterpretation. Answer my question exactly please, with the same language. The problem persists is NOT precise.

OK I see your latest post now. You need to test the room hypothesis and put your ears up against the speakers to see if you can identify a dead driver. I bet there is.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The right speaker contintued to lack bass, even with the left signal cable

I would do as others have suggested and try turning off YPAO. Also, this is super minor, but I would re-adjust the distances to all be the same and set the center channel to small. The center channel shouldn't have as much bass as the towers.

As another poster noted, it looks like there might be some aspects of your room, acoustically, that could be throwing off the response. It's really hard to tell without seeing measurements, so I'm guessing here. Doors don't necessarily cause problems, but they could. An opening in a wall is a really good way to "let the bass out" of the room. It's actually a trick that is sometimes intentionally used to reduce the impact of a reflection in the room called the primary axial mode which runs the longest length of the room and tends to cause both a cancelation and boost in the bass that is very significant. It doesn't actually matter if the door is on the front of the room or back of the room, the effect is the same.

In any case, all of this is conjecture until we see what is going on.

When running the test tones, you said it sounds like the bass only comes from one speaker. Can you get your head near the speakers when it runs and see if the woofer appears to be moving on the speaker that seems to lack bass? Maybe even put your finger lightly on the cone to feel. If you aren't feeling anything, then something is broken in the speaker. If you are, then it's just an acoustic problem.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would do as others have suggested and try turning off YPAO. Also, this is super minor, but I would re-adjust the distances to all be the same and set the center channel to small. The center channel shouldn't have as much bass as the towers.

As another poster noted, it looks like there might be some aspects of your room, acoustically, that could be throwing off the response. It's really hard to tell without seeing measurements, so I'm guessing here. Doors don't necessarily cause problems, but they could. An opening in a wall is a really good way to "let the bass out" of the room. It's actually a trick that is sometimes intentionally used to reduce the impact of a reflection in the room called the primary axial mode which runs the longest length of the room and tends to cause both a cancelation and boost in the bass that is very significant. It doesn't actually matter if the door is on the front of the room or back of the room, the effect is the same.

In any case, all of this is conjecture until we see what is going on.

When running the test tones, you said it sounds like the bass only comes from one speaker. Can you get your head near the speakers when it runs and see if the woofer appears to be moving on the speaker that seems to lack bass? Maybe even put your finger lightly on the cone to feel. If you aren't feeling anything, then something is broken in the speaker. If you are, then it's just an acoustic problem.

Please stop making this complicated! This problem is not requiring of measurements at this time. This is a simple problem of elementary applied logic. I have helped probably well over a hundred members with these types of problems over the years and very successfully.

We can very simply solve the room question as I have instructed the OP.

I would bet strongly there is a dead driver, most likely due to a connection coming off in the speaker, or there is a faulty/blown driver.

Please keep this down to simple elementary logic at this time.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Please stop making this complicated! This problem is not requiring of measurements at this time. This is a simple problem of elementary applied logic. I have helped probably well over a hundred members with these types of problems over the years and very successfully.

We can very simply solve the room question as I have instructed the OP.

I would bet strongly there is a dead driver, most likely due to a connection coming off in the speaker, or there is a faulty/blown driver.

Please keep this down to simple elementary logic at this time.

He indicates the center also sounds like it has no bass at all. If so, then he has many dead drivers? That seemed unlikely.