considering Crown XLS 1002 instead of Outlaw M2200

[snakeeyes]

Good luck! Make sure that Marantz is all fixed. That’s the first step. Get back to enjoying music and movies! What speakers are you using currently? I bet you are setting up your new subs.

 

[PENG]

Ryan asked a question to you that's been on my mind as well PENG. What does turning down the gain knob on the crowns do? Is it like a form of volume control. Or does it do something different like I think you briefly touched on

They called it gain control, so I would guess turning it down reduced the gain. Looks to me they are for fine adjustments, in addition to the high .775V, and low 1.4 V fixed settings. At a certain fixed volume position of the preamp, varying the gain by turning those knobs obviously will affect the amp output so you may argue that it does control the "volume" too, but "gain" control is not the same as "volume" control. The former affects the input stage level of the power amp, the latter affects the output of the preamp.

 

[lovinthehd]

They called it gain control, so I would guess turning it down reduced the gain. Looks to me they are for fine adjustments, in addition to the high .775V, and low 1.4 V fixed settings. At a certain fixed volume position of the preamp, varying the gain by turning those knobs obviously will affect the amp output so you may argue that it does control the "volume" too, but "gain" control is not the same as "volume" control. The former affects the input stage level of the power amp, the latter affects the output of the preamp.

Actually on the Crowns I've used it as a volume control, which somewhat surprised me, as I thought also it was more for fine adjustments, but using just the amp with a source and speakers alone you can go from no volume to full volume....I think of it more like an attenuator with full range? OTOH I don't have the adjustable sensitivity so don't know if gen 2 changed that....maybe someone with a gen 2 amp can confirm or not.

 

[Verdinut]

They called it gain control, so I would guess turning it down reduced the gain. Looks to me they are for fine adjustments, in addition to the high .775V, and low 1.4 V fixed settings. At a certain fixed volume position of the preamp, varying the gain by turning those knobs obviously will affect the amp output so you may argue that it does control the "volume" too, but "gain" control is not the same as "volume" control. The former affects the input stage level of the power amp, the latter affects the output of the preamp.

According to Rane Corporation, level, volume, gain are all input sensitivity controls no matter what they are called:

Setting Power Amplifiers


Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.
First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

Amplifier input sensitivity controls do not change the available output power. They only change the input level required to produce full output power. Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power at the amplifier.

 

[ryanosaur]

According to Rane Corporation, volume, gain are all input sensitivity controls no matter what they are called:

Setting Power Amplifiers


Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.
First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

Amplifier input sensitivity controls do not change the available output power. They only change the input level required to produce full output power. Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power at the amplifier.

Thank you!

 

[PENG]

According to Rane Corporation, level, volume, gain are all input sensitivity controls no matter what they are called:

Setting Power Amplifiers


Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.
First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

Amplifier input sensitivity controls do not change the available output power. They only change the input level required to produce full output power. Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power at the amplifier.

Yes, but I hope you realize they were talking about those knobs on power amps and were actually emphasizing that they were "input sensitivity" controls, even if they called it "volume" or "level" controls. In terms of "gain control", I do agree with Rane, that it is still technical incorrect but at least it naturally alerts people that it is not really the same as the volume/level control know found on preamps. I have never seen any power amp specs referred to those as "volume" control, but again, I guess Rane Corp simply mentioned it to emphasize their point.

 

[PENG]

Actually on the Crowns I've used it as a volume control, which somewhat surprised me, as I thought also it was more for fine adjustments, but using just the amp with a source and speakers alone you can go from no volume to full volume....I think of it more like an attenuator with full range? OTOH I don't have the adjustable sensitivity so don't know if gen 2 changed that....maybe someone with a gen 2 amp can confirm or not.

In that case, it would be similar to my Halo A21's, except the A21 does not have the two fixed settings. So that means the Crown's 0.775 and 1.4 V settings probably are the top end limits for the knows, at least that would be my educated guess, what do you think?

 

[Verdinut]

Yes, but I hope you realize they were talking about those knobs on power amps and were actually emphasizing that they were "gain" or "input sensitivity" controls, even if they called it "volume" controls. I have never seen any power amp specs referred to those as "volume" control, but again, Rane Corp simply mentioned it to emphasize their point.

They could have called them "Volume Controls" but that kind of control is most often stationary set for a proper gain structure part of a certain installation and then another control in the chain is used to adjust the playback volume.

 

[PENG]

Thank you!

Be clear, volume control is not the same as input sensitivity control, or gain control (still technically not quite correct, just slightly better..I guess.). Power amps, such as Crown's, Parasound and others, do have such knobs that looked like, volume control knobs but as per Verdinut's linked article, they are in fact input sensitivity controls.

 

[ryanosaur]

According to Rane Corporation, level, volume, gain are all input sensitivity controls no matter what they are called:

Setting Power Amplifiers


Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.
First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

Amplifier input sensitivity controls do not change the available output power. They only change the input level required to produce full output power. Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power at the amplifier.

And I did manage to find this on crowns website:
" Should I have the level controls on my amplifier turned all the way up?

It depends on the system and how much gain you have prior to the amplifier. The level control can be thought of as an input attenuator. It does not limit the power available from the amplifier. With the level controls turned down the amplifier can still reach full rated output power, it just takes more drive level from your mixer to achieve it. Generally, you should set the mixer's individual channel fader and master gain to 0 dB, then adjust the amplifier level controls to the desired sound level."

 

[lovinthehd]

In that case, it would be similar to my Halo A21's, except the A21 does not have the two fixed settings. So that means the Crown's 0.775 and 1.4 V settings probably are the top end limits for the knows, at least that would be my educated guess, what do you think?

Top end limits for the knows?

 

[PENG]

Top end limits for the knows?

I guessed if say, you select 1.4 V input sensitivity, then the "gain", or again "sensitivity" (as they mean practically the same), will be such that feeding the amp with a preamp outputting 1.4 V, can get you the rated output of 300 W into 8 ohms with the "gain" know at maximum but if you turn the knob down, you can reduce the gain to "0" as found by you. That's what I meant by top end limit, but I am only guessing..

 

[PENG]

And I did manage to find this on crowns website:
" Should I have the level controls on my amplifier turned all the way up?

It depends on the system and how much gain you have prior to the amplifier. The level control can be thought of as an input attenuator. It does not limit the power available from the amplifier. With the level controls turned down the amplifier can still reach full rated output power, it just takes more drive level from your mixer to achieve it. Generally, you should set the mixer's individual channel fader and master gain to 0 dB, then adjust the amplifier level controls to the desired sound level."

That is informative for the "pro" applications obviously. For home use such as in your case, I bet if you select the 1.4 V input sensitivity setting, you will in fact end up turning the knob all the way up or very close to it. That's based on the SR6012's gain being 29 dB or very close to 29 dB.

I don't prefer the wording of that article's sentence: "First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.)" but only because I think it may mislead people to think volume and gain control knobs do exactly the same thing but they really do not. The Rane article https://www.rane.com/note135.html you read explained that in details, if you read the whole piece.

The thing is, those "gain" or "sensitivity" knobs on power amps are there to give you additional flexibility to optimize the overall gain structure when several separate components are used in the signal chain before it hits the power amplifier. It is not meant (not in general) to be used as volume control in the conventional sense. "Volume" control, on the other hand generally implies the knobs found on preamps, receivers, and integrated amps, and are in fact almost invariably referred as "volume" control knobs.

 

[PENG]

They could have called them "Volume Controls" but that kind of control is most often stationary set for a proper gain structure part of a certain installation and then another control in the chain is used to adjust the playback volume.

That's exactly my point, thank you!

 

[snakeeyes]

Outlaw has a sale on the M2200 now. $299 each and free shipping.

 

[PENG]

Outlaw has a sale on the M2200 now. $299 each and free shipping.

At that unit price, I wonder if ryanosaur can still get the volume (for 5) discount on top?

 

[snakeeyes]

At that unit price, I wonder if ryanosaur can still get the volume (for 5) discount on top?

Worth calling and asking. For 5, you still save $84 at $299 each for 1495 over the volume discount on 5 at 1579

 

[Danzilla31]

Worth calling and asking. For 5, you still save $84 at $299 each for 1495 over the volume discount on 5 at 1579

They might just pop him a discount on top of that I've spoken with them before they came across as really cool people. Very friendly and easy to speak to

 

[ryanosaur]

Outlaw has a sale on the M2200 now. $299 each and free shipping.

Damn! that sale wasn't there when I went to bed at midnight!
I wasn't worried so much about the cost, but I did start wondering about Emotivas $300 sredit on a future purchase if I bought the XPA5... but there's not really anything else I would need from them in 6mos time.
Oh, Outlaw. I wanted to be a customer and you are making one of me!

BTW... How bout that deal on the Marantz 7705+5000 Amp... basically you only pay 100 on the amp!

I can't ask about adding a breaker until my landlord is back on the 15th...

 

[PENG]

BTW... How bout that deal on the Marantz 7705+5000 Amp... basically you only pay 100 on the amp!

I can't ask about adding a breaker until my landlord is back on the 15th...

I would rather call it $650 for the amp, and $1,650 for the AV7705. That is a reasonably price to start going the so called separate route. Don't expect too much though, in reality the AV7705 is not going to sound much different than the SR6012, any difference will most likely be not discernible in any level matched blind tests. The Outlaw 5000 should be powerful enough for the BMRs that are not really designed to play much above reference level in a medium sized room, given that the sensitivity is so low, at 85 dB/2.83V/1M.

If the credit only applies to another Marantz, the SR7012 should be available for $1100 by now.