Can you have too much?

[ryanosaur]

Yes. I know the answer. Yes.
Instead of building in an 8000'3+room, I will now be putting audio in my ~2000'3 room.
I know the Bassaholics ratings would put me in a Medium Room now rather than an Extreme Room.

My requirements have not changed.
I require deep bass extension for pipe organ music 15-16Hz. I am 80%music to 20%HT. Budget can be flexible:
Considering:
Hsu VTF15Hmk2 x2 ($1749 +shipping)
Monoprice Monolith 15" Ultra x2 ($2498 + shipping? (free shipping promotion active))
Outlaw Ultra x-13 x2 ($2499+shipping)
PSA V1510 x2 ($2200 +shipping)
Rythmik LVX12 x2 ($1398)
Rythmik FV15HP x2 ($3148)
Rythmik FV18v2 x2 ($3098)
Seaton JS12 x2 ($2190+shipping)
SVS PB4000 x2 ($3600)
SVS PC4000 x2 ($3400)
SVS PC2000 x2 ($1500)

Please dear friends. Discuss: pros, cons, and other details. If there is another Sub that will cost less than 3K for 2... lets talk. (Love Funk, but can't play in that sandbox, i'm afraid. Same with Deep Sea...)

OK, Maybe 1 ea. Mariana 18SD ($3600) (If that's truly better than 2 PB4000s)

Speakers: Considering Ascend, Philharmonic, Monitor Audio, and others. Speaker auditions start this week. For smaller room format. So many more options!

As Always: Thank you and best to all!

Edit: updated list above

 

[shadyJ]

What you need to determine is how much SPL you are after. Yeah, two FV18s will do the trick, but that might be way more than you need. Maybe two PC-2000s is all you need. The question is, how loud do you like it?

One thing you can do right away is cross of the Seaton 12s. Those won't do deep bass at all as well as those ported subwoofers. They are nice subs, I have heard them, but they are intended for applications where a smaller enclosure is needed.

I would add to that list the Hsu VTF15h mk2 and Monoprice Monolith 15" THX. The VTF15h mk2 in particular is tuned at 16 Hz in single port mode because Dr. Hsu has geared his subs specifically to be able to handle the low C of a 32' stop in pipe organs. The SVS 4000s would make a great choice too since they have such low distortion at 16 Hz. The PC-4000 would be great because it is movable by a single person. Moving the PB-4000 is a pain, as I am sure danzilla31 can attest to. Really good sub though. The Outlaw X13 is a great sub for 16 Hz as well, it won't quite have the output of those others, but it doesn't look like the bruiser that these others do.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Even if you get big subs they do have volume control and it is better to have headroom than be little short. Of course getting correct subs can save you a lot money towards speakers if you dont need big monsters.

 

[snakeeyes]

How much pipe organ? Are you chasing the super low? My understanding is if you want significant 12hz output you end up with ported 18s such as the FV18. If you are ok with good 16hz output the ported 15s like FV15HP or HSU VTF15. If you are ok with good 20hz output, you can do anything on that list but some of them may not have as much mid bass output if they are tuned low.

 

[ryanosaur]

What you need to determine is how much SPL you are after.

Whether I actually use it, I would like my rig to be capable of 85dB SPL with dynamic peaks up to 105dB SPL. Perhaps extreme, I might never push it that hard. (Bullsh!t, I will. just not everyday, or for more than the duration of a syphony.) But there is a feeling to sound that is important to me, just as much the hearing of sound.

Even if you get big subs they do have volume control and it is better to have headroom than be little short. Of course getting correct subs can save you a lot money towards speakers if you dont need big monsters.

Yes. Just would be silly to have the sub turned down to 1, and room correction knock it down lower. I had already budgeted for a 7.2 system in a greatroom over 8000'3. I would like to bring it back some, but tradeoffs allowed for in larger room size are moot, and I intend to take advantage of the opportunity to consider speakers I couldn't before.
Philharmonic rig: L/C/R BMR +surround/rear Mini-Phil's is an example I couldn't use in the greatroom.

How much pipe organ?

It, and good percussion works, are an occasional thing, but there's nothing worse than having something you know should be there just ghost off. Technically 16hz is the point, as Shady said above, I like to throw in that 15 to give my toes a little more space.

@shadyJ, I had looked really hard at the Hsu VTF15Hmk2 and it was a very strong early contender. The last time I went back over the reviews, it seemed to have some flaws that the Rythmiks don't seem to have. Even compared to the Outlaw, I felt perhaps it was capable, but maybe still had some rough edges.

I guess the next thing I should try understanding better is how an enclosed space affects SPL. I know distance from the speaker/sub affect that, but when I have a finite amount of space such as my office, compared to the greatroom, then on paper the pc2000 should work. Likewise, the output difference between the Outlaw and the Monolith should be moot.

Lastly, I can get 2 Rythmik FV18 v2 for less than the FV15hp. Is it too much to have those in my smaller space? so why wouldn't I? What about the smaller LVX12 models? And is a double driver sub like that Deep Sea or the FV25HP not listed above only going to give me more output, or will the second driver in a small space also help satify that dual sub effect of smoothing out the bass response?

Thank you!

 

[Steve81]

Lastly, I can get 2 Rythmik FV18 v2 for less than the FV15hp. Is it too much to have those in my smaller space?

As James said, the FV18's will do the trick, and you don't have to worry about being boomed out of the space since you can turn down the FV18s to an appropriate level w/ the gain control and tune the response to the room a bit w/ the damping controls on Rythmik subs.

That said, the FV18 is neither small nor lightweight, and given the new room and your focus on music vs spleen massaging bass, you could probably get by with a lot less. Less costly vented subs like the Hsu VTF15H Mk II are certainly an option, but it might also be worth considering some of the 15" and 18" sealed options out there. The ULS15 Mk II dual drive package is a solid value at $1,500 plus shipping in black, and seems like it'd fit your needs well (at least IMHO) for a lot less money, size, and weight invested. If you wanted to go nuts, a quad pack would be pretty sweet

Review.

 

[shadyJ]

Whether I actually use it, I would like my rig to be capable of 85dB SPL with dynamic peaks up to 105dB SPL. Perhaps extreme, I might never push it that hard. (Bullsh!t, I will. just not everyday, or for more than the duration of a syphony.) But there is a feeling to sound that is important to me, just as much the hearing of sound.


Yes. Just would be silly to have the sub turned down to 1, and room correction knock it down lower. I had already budgeted for a 7.2 system in a greatroom over 8000'3. I would like to bring it back some, but tradeoffs allowed for in larger room size are moot, and I intend to take advantage of the opportunity to consider speakers I couldn't before.
Philharmonic rig: L/C/R BMR +surround/rear Mini-Phil's is an example I couldn't use in the greatroom.


It, and good percussion works, are an occasional thing, but there's nothing worse than having something you know should be there just ghost off. Technically 16hz is the point, as Shady said above, I like to throw in that 15 to give my toes a little more space.

@shadyJ, I had looked really hard at the Hsu VTF15Hmk2 and it was a very strong early contender. The last time I went back over the reviews, it seemed to have some flaws that the Rythmiks don't seem to have. Even compared to the Outlaw, I felt perhaps it was capable, but maybe still had some rough edges.

I guess the next thing I should try understanding better is how an enclosed space affects SPL. I know distance from the speaker/sub affect that, but when I have a finite amount of space such as my office, compared to the greatroom, then on paper the pc2000 should work. Likewise, the output difference between the Outlaw and the Monolith should be moot.

Lastly, I can get 2 Rythmik FV18 v2 for less than the FV15hp. Is it too much to have those in my smaller space? so why wouldn't I? What about the smaller LVX12 models? And is a double driver sub like that Deep Sea or the FV25HP not listed above only going to give me more output, or will the second driver in a small space also help satify that dual sub effect of smoothing out the bass response?

Thank you!

A couple things to consider: monster 18"s will have far more dynamic range than the Philharmonic BMRs. You can get Rythmik 18"s, and that will do the trick, but its probably a bit overkill on a Philharmonic BMR system. Also consider that one of the reasons that the Philharmonic BMR speakers are made was for a bookshelf speaker that has deep extension. Pairing it up with some monster subs almost defeats the point. Not to say that it won't be a great system though.

The LVX12, not using an amazing driver, but it can be tuned very low. It might work for you if you don't need a lot of SPL.

You are right that dual driver subwoofers are only going to increase your SPL. They are not going to help much with evening out the response.

Regarding any flaws of the VTF15h mk2, I would say it is a very well balanced design for the money. I have lots of measurements of it, and when I compare them to the existing measurements of the FV18, it is surprisingly not far behind in a lot of metrics. While the 2nd revision of the FV18 is sure to improve its performance in some respects, it will also degrade its performance in other respects.

The PC-2000 is a solid subwoofer, by the way. You might just give it a try. It won't cost you anything but time to try it out, since you can send it back in 45 days with SVS covering return shipping. It may well do the trick for you. The 12" driver that is used in it is phenomenally linear. I also have lot of measurements for that one. It is not an output monster, but it is clean and it digs deep. My guess is it would outperform a LVX12.

 

[shadyJ]

The ULS15 Mk II dual drive package is a solid value at $1,500 plus shipping in black, and seems like it'd fit your needs well (at least IMHO) for a lot less money, size, and weight invested. If you wanted to go nuts, a quad pack would be pretty sweet

A quad pack of ULS-15 mk2s would be pretty nuts. That is a system that could average 130 dB in bursts from 50 Hz to 100 Hz at 2 meters outdoors. That will scare the neighbors for sure.

 

[Steve81]

A quad pack of ULS-15 mk2s would be pretty nuts. That is a system that could average 130 dB in bursts from 50 Hz to 100 Hz at 2 meters outdoors. That will scare the neighbors for sure.

And at 65 pounds a pop with an 18" cubed enclosure, it's pretty manageable too. That's practically mini-sub territory compared to some of the beasts out there these days.

 

[snakeeyes]

The LVX12 does pretty good and it is tuned pretty low which limits some of the mid bass spl. It won’t put out much spl for 15hz but it does put out a lot at 17hz. I have one in a 2600 cu ft sealed room. I have a demo cd from HSU that steps up each notch and at 17hz and 18hz my base board heater and windows rattle. I really like it a lot but I’m running towers that probably make up for all the mid bass. Old 2003 Def Tech BP10B towers that probably touch upper 20’s with min spl and 30hz with good spl.

In another room paired with small Bookshelves Q Acoustics 3020, I have a pair of HSU VTF2 subs and these also put out good spl at 17hz but they also have more mid bass than the LVX12. Possibly the driver is nicer. This room is 4700 cu ft and it is dual subs rather than a single.

Comparing the two, I like the sound a bit better on the Rythmik but the mid bass on the HSU has more impact. Again this is purely my own opinion and impression. YMMV

My guess is any pair of subs on that list will sound good. Some will go lower or have more mid bass. .

 

[ryanosaur]

A quad pack of ULS-15 mk2s would be pretty nuts. That is a system that could average 130 dB in bursts from 50 Hz to 100 Hz at 2 meters outdoors. That will scare the neighbors for sure.

Does the ULS hit that low extension at all?
Regardless: I reached out to Rythmik to get some info on their 12" subs, and if the paper cones can be upgraded to the aluminum. Interested to hear their take on my situation. I'll let you guys know what they say.

The PC-2000 is a solid subwoofer, by the way. You might just give it a try

Perhaps, and I could do multiples easy enough. Which leads to another question I would like clarification on. More drivers= more output, more individual subs= smoother room response. Is this cumulative between the two? For example, two Rythmik L22 vs 4 L12: simplifying here, but output should be about the same, but the four single will give better response as opposed to 2 L12 vs 4 L12 which would be more output plus better response. Am I getting that correct? Correctish?

My guess is it would outperform a LVX12.

If the LVX12 had the better driver, would you still feel the same?

Thanks Shady and Steve!

 

[snakeeyes]

Does the ULS hit that low extension at all?
Regardless: I reached out to Rythmik to get some info on their 12" subs, and if the paper cones can be upgraded to the aluminum. Interested to hear their take on my situation. I'll let you guys know what they say.

Perhaps, and I could do multiples easy enough. Which leads to another question I would like clarification on. More drivers= more output, more individual subs= smoother room response. Is this cumulative between the two? For example, two Rythmik L22 vs 4 L12: simplifying here, but output should be about the same, but the four single will give better response as opposed to 2 L12 vs 4 L12 which would be more output plus better response. Am I getting that correct? Correctish?

If the LVX12 had the better driver, would you still feel the same?

Thanks Shady and Steve!

You inventing the FV12HP with aluminum? I think that is the missing link in the Rythmik line up. The FV15HP has a nice driver...

 

[ryanosaur]

The LVX12 does pretty good and it is tuned pretty low which limits some of the mid bass spl.

So in an instance where I might have L/R channels capable of handling mid bass...

We're talking 50hz-150? 60 or 80 up to 500? (ive seen different specs)

...I can just play with the crossover to utilize what works best for the overall program, right? If my speakers are 32Hz or 34Hz depending on two models i'm looking at, I could set 50 as the crossover, ya?

My guess is any pair of subs on that list will sound good. Some will go lower or have more mid bass. .

Right?! I do have pretty good taste, and have gotten a lot of great advice!

Now if only i could get four Funk subs...

 

[ryanosaur]

You inventing the FV12HP with aluminum? I think that is the missing link in the Rythmik line up. The FV15HP has a nice driver...

That's what I'm asking them! Upgrading either the LVX12 or L22. If the price is right and the other specs line up the way they should, that would fit my bill!

 

[snakeeyes]

So in an instance where I might have L/R channels capable of handling mid bass...

We're talking 50hz-150? 60 or 80 up to 500? (ive seen different specs)

...I can just play with the crossover to utilize what works best for the overall program, right? If my speakers are 32Hz or 34Hz depending on two models i'm looking at, I could set 50 as the crossover, ya?

Right?! I do have pretty good taste, and have gotten a lot of great advice!

Now if only i could get four Funk subs...

It’s really the 40 hz to 60 hz that I’m calling mid bass. If the sub is tuned at 20hz you lose some of that 40 to 90hz mid bass output somewhat. Yes some big towers can cover that up. The SVS Ultra towers would.

 

[snakeeyes]

That's what I'm asking them! Upgrading either the LVX12 or L22. If the price is right and the other specs line up the way they should, that would fit my bill!

L22 would be similar output with a LVX12 so aluminum drivers would be sweet on either.

 

[Steve81]

Does the ULS hit that low extension at all?

In a smaller 2000 cubic foot room, with the benefit of cabin gain typical of such rooms, absolutely.

 

[ryanosaur]

In a smaller 2000 cubic foot room, with the benefit of cabin gain typical of such rooms, absolutely.

Good to know, Thank you!

 

[shadyJ]

Does the ULS hit that low extension at all?
Regardless: I reached out to Rythmik to get some info on their 12" subs, and if the paper cones can be upgraded to the aluminum. Interested to hear their take on my situation. I'll let you guys know what they say.

Perhaps, and I could do multiples easy enough. Which leads to another question I would like clarification on. More drivers= more output, more individual subs= smoother room response. Is this cumulative between the two? For example, two Rythmik L22 vs 4 L12: simplifying here, but output should be about the same, but the four single will give better response as opposed to 2 L12 vs 4 L12 which would be more output plus better response. Am I getting that correct? Correctish?

If the LVX12 had the better driver, would you still feel the same?

Thanks Shady and Steve!

The cone composition isn't necessarily going to help. If they switched to aluminum for the LVX12, that would make the driver heavier which would reduce its mid bass headroom. You would need to have real changes made to the motor and suspension as well. The LVX12 is banking on its larger cabinet for extra efficiency. I believe its using the same driver as the other budget 12"s. My guess is that enclosure is optimized for that driver. You could put a more powerful driver in that cabinet, but I doubt that would be optimal. For example, how would the vent flow handle that extra displacement?

So long as you have the same amount of displacement in room, the headroom will remain the same. You are dumping the same amount of energy in the room whether you bunch the subwoofers all in one spot or spread them out. The idea that placing them all in one spot makes them louder is a misunderstanding. It only makes everything louder for the specific response which that location engenders.

 

[snakeeyes]

The cone composition isn't necessarily going to help. If they switched to aluminum for the LVX12, that would make the driver heavier which would reduce its mid bass headroom. You would need to have real changes made to the motor and suspension as well. The LVX12 is banking on its larger cabinet for extra efficiency. I believe its using the same driver as the other budget 12"s. My guess is that enclosure is optimized for that driver. You could put a more powerful driver in that cabinet, but I doubt that would be optimal. For example, how would the vent flow handle that extra displacement?

So long as you have the same amount of displacement in room, the headroom will remain the same. You are dumping the same amount of energy in the room whether you bunch the subwoofers all in one spot or spread them out. The idea that placing them all in one spot makes them louder is a misunderstanding. It only makes everything louder for the specific response which that location engenders.

Makes sense. The aluminum cone on the same driver doesn’t do much.

Thinking the HSU VTF3 would be a nice choice without going too big or expensive in that 2000 cu ft sealed room.