The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[andyblackcat]

Blue Thunder (1983)
70mm Dolby Stereo (format 42), well maybe not in 100% form as I would need a 70mm print playing same time with DVD to listen to as and when and how the mix sounds as well as frequency response signal noise ratio, but this DVD pressing is by far the closest it would ever be.

Format 42 was LCR mono discrete surround with discrete sub bass the MS and SW would only come active as and when in the film mix as and when to great effectiveness.

Format 43 that was with LCR SS split surrounds and SW was only ever released with handful of 70mm blow up release prints while format 42 holds the most title list. Format 40 five screen wide channels mono surround was retired around mid 1976? maybe bit year so later?

Dolby DSU makes hell of sounding mess with Blue Thunder as its mostly pulling sound from LCR and matrixing it with some new fancy of sort but it sounds repulsively dreadful!

dts neural X doesn't help even thou it has its own fancy that sounds like a sound signal gating hold back the LCR in same most parts but when the music comes active in a scene from Blue Thumder "follower the lead chaps" it sounds like ear rape! Its all phasy again a holy sounding up mix of crap!

I think the cat is out of the bag now with more listening with certain Dolby encoded films DSU is a fail of an upmixer its okay as discrete format but its ear raper for upmixing surround speakers. Reason WHY!

Blue Thunder has discrete LCR and MS - SW so the processor says oh this should be sounding here yeah when you listen to it with (LCR SW MUTED) you will hear what DSU / Neural-X really is CRAP for listening. I not sorry for being true-fully hash about it.

Get arrays of speakers for surrounds for sidewalls and rear back most have but most do not have the proper wiring for the playback of their certain favorite films.

These rubbish AVR's don't even give consumers a fancy way of playing the same mono to stereo surround signal equally to sides and rear back without any additional processing. I can do that here as I run Dolby professional processors as well as SDDS wired up to common as mud AVR.

 

[andyblackcat]

No way absolutely not need to play this bluray remix abomination with fake split surrounds fake LFE.1 and LCR or rather centre discrete sounding like a holy sony pictures of bad re-recording mixer that shouldn't be allowed near a mixing console.

The LR centre phantom has been sandwiched on top of the discrete to any one that listens to films afterwards with each channel muted to compare over say Dolby Stereo martix its different ball game.

The LR channels have been sandwiched on top of the discrete mono surround that only ever comes active (as and when in the film mix) same with the LFE.1 which is noisy active all the time, is totally repulsive and disgustingly distracting offensive to my ears.

And the bluray ended up in in, you know what.

My ears can easily be offended even if its a half second sound botch up on movies on discs. Easily.

 

[andyblackcat]

Dolby DSU - dts Neural Roasting

 

[Bookmark]

Thank you for the investigation Andy.

My Dvd copy identifies as 6 channel 448kps, so I am not sure which version that would be or if it is the same as yours. I would agree it does not sound great with either up mixer. However I could say that of a number of films. I watched a copy His Girl Friday from 1940. It is a mono track and when I engaged one of the up mixer modes it sound like it was in a weird bathroom and had to turn it off.

I cannot do as yourself and turn off the base layer easily, however I did also try the section without the heights on Straight mode.

First, I will say it's a 35 year old film and the Dvd release is a decade or two later. How good the print was, and what the audio condition was like, I do not know. I think I saw it first in the cinema, but that was a long time ago. With all speakers engaged I could hear to a degree, the music and sound differences you identified. When I listened in Straight mode and the mix is front heavy LCR and seems to work a bit better and cleaner. I do still get the downdraft and occasional helicopter overhead, when she is searching for the tape in the dustbin. Also the front to back for the helicopter flying under the bridge in the spillway.

Overall I would agree, don't bother with an up mix. I didn't have full speaker setup, when I watched the whole film earlier in the year. I might however suggest that isolating the heights is possibly not the way to test this type of film. Part of the flanging/distorting you are hearing could be intentional, due to an intended interaction between the other speakers. So separated out is not a true reflection of the overall complete sound field. Just my opinion, but I watched the Aristocats, stereo, 1970, from an OTA recording and thought that up mixed reasonably well, particularly for the song set pieces. It could be because music up mixing can work well this stands a better chance than a Pro Logic mix. Pro logic tracks already involve a fair bit of trickery to get the rears in the first place with delays and phase changes and possibly the DSU/Neural X does not like that much. I do think most of the 5.1/7.1 mixes generally work quite well.

 

[Bookmark]

Last night we also watched The First Purge in Dts:X. It's ok, I prefer the 2nd and 3rd films but the sound had its moments. Particularly the fireball in the room washing left to right near the end. That said, five minutes of San Andreas in Atmos blew it away completely. 30ish minutes in and just did the dam and oh boy. It's scary loud and bombastic.

The other Twin of Evil

 

[snakeeyes]

Thank you for the investigation Andy.

My Dvd copy identifies as 6 channel 448kps, so I am not sure which version that would be or if it is the same as yours. I would agree it does not sound great with either up mixer. However I could say that of a number of films. I watched a copy His Girl Friday from 1940. It is a mono track and when I engaged one of the up mixer modes it sound like it was in a weird bathroom and had to turn it off.

I cannot do as yourself and turn off the base layer easily, however I did also try the section without the heights on Straight mode.

First, I will say it's a 35 year old film and the Dvd release is a decade or two later. How good the print was, and what the audio condition was like, I do not know. I think I saw it first in the cinema, but that was a long time ago. With all speakers engaged I could hear to a degree, the music and sound differences you identified. When I listened in Straight mode and the mix is front heavy LCR and seems to work a bit better and cleaner. I do still get the downdraft and occasional helicopter overhead, when she is searching for the tape in the dustbin. Also the front to back for the helicopter flying under the bridge in the spillway.

Overall I would agree, don't bother with an up mix. I didn't have full speaker setup, when I watched the whole film earlier in the year. I might however suggest that isolating the heights is possibly not the way to test this type of film. Part of the flanging/distorting you are hearing could be intentional, due to an intended interaction between the other speakers. So separated out is not a true reflection of the overall complete sound field. Just my opinion, but I watched the Aristocats, stereo, 1970, from an OTA recording and thought that up mixed reasonably well, particularly for the song set pieces. It could be because music up mixing can work well this stands a better chance than a Pro Logic mix. Pro logic tracks already involve a fair bit of trickery to get the rears in the first place with delays and phase changes and possibly the DSU/Neural X does not like that much. I do think most of the 5.1/7.1 mixes generally work quite well.

Wow the great DSU can’t handle it? Prologic 1 was a poorly matrixed format with numerous issues. I was happy to even have PL1 surround sound in my home in the early 90’s though. Best option is maybe if there is a 2.0 audio to let DSU or NeuralX try to upmix without dealing with PL1. Otherwise listen to 2.0 or maybe try a DSP movie mode to morph the sound field a bit. Think Movie DSPs lost their usefulness when PL2 and Neo6 arrived but desperate times, try it.

Dolby PL2 was ok but I always liked Neo6 slightly better before I got a new AVR. DSU and Neural X are very nice. My 2016 Yamaha still has a Neo6 option but no PL2. Think 2015 was last year you could have all possible Dolby and DTS decoders on Yamaha all at once. Yes DSU makes the other Dolby decoders obsolete. It is that good. That said, Yamaha thought DTS NeuralX was not good enough to sacrifice Neo6 Cinema and Neo6 Music from their AVR...

 

[andyblackcat]

Thank you for the investigation Andy.

My Dvd copy identifies as 6 channel 448kps, so I am not sure which version that would be or if it is the same as yours. I would agree it does not sound great with either up mixer. However I could say that of a number of films. I watched a copy His Girl Friday from 1940. It is a mono track and when I engaged one of the up mixer modes it sound like it was in a weird bathroom and had to turn it off.

I cannot do as yourself and turn off the base layer easily, however I did also try the section without the heights on Straight mode.

First, I will say it's a 35 year old film and the Dvd release is a decade or two later. How good the print was, and what the audio condition was like, I do not know. I think I saw it first in the cinema, but that was a long time ago. With all speakers engaged I could hear to a degree, the music and sound differences you identified. When I listened in Straight mode and the mix is front heavy LCR and seems to work a bit better and cleaner. I do still get the downdraft and occasional helicopter overhead, when she is searching for the tape in the dustbin. Also the front to back for the helicopter flying under the bridge in the spillway.

Overall I would agree, don't bother with an up mix. I didn't have full speaker setup, when I watched the whole film earlier in the year. I might however suggest that isolating the heights is possibly not the way to test this type of film. Part of the flanging/distorting you are hearing could be intentional, due to an intended interaction between the other speakers. So separated out is not a true reflection of the overall complete sound field. Just my opinion, but I watched the Aristocats, stereo, 1970, from an OTA recording and thought that up mixed reasonably well, particularly for the song set pieces. It could be because music up mixing can work well this stands a better chance than a Pro Logic mix. Pro logic tracks already involve a fair bit of trickery to get the rears in the first place with delays and phase changes and possibly the DSU/Neural X does not like that much. I do think most of the 5.1/7.1 mixes generally work quite well.

Take picture of it.
I was hoping it was going to sound great and wow, wow thrill me but it left me feeling... emotionally depressed with what Dolby DSU can and can't do. Well it can't do Vintage Dolby pro-logic , but thank goodness I still have that format t use in the system otherwise i'd really be stuck with a new AVR Lemon, like everyone else.

I like to get Black Rain (1989) again on DVD first pressing as I mistakenly took it back 20 so years ago for a refund but would buy it again as it would be close to the 70mm release. The bluray isn't its a BS remix with split-surrounds that are active mostly all the time when they should Only be active in mono surround discrete as and when in the mix.

 

[andyblackcat]

Just ordered Black Rain (1989) early DVD R2 I couldn't find decent R1 so push comes to shove had to get the same original R2 thou R1 would be better at correct speed over the Pal 4% frame speed-up.

I have the bluray but it vexes my ears with crying tears of depression.

 

[Bookmark]

Wow the great DSU can’t handle it?

Who have thunk. There is a Pro Logic up mixer in there too. It is not just restricted to DSU and Neural X. I could give that a try.

This was of course written prior to the addition of Neural X.

Take picture of it.

I had a quick look and I would love to oblige, but alas my 2k+ collection is in monstrous, frequently double stacked piles all over the house and not in alphabetic/any order either. So if I come across it I will upload a pic. I do seem to remember it being in a paper/cardboard cover rather than a plastic shell case and have a lot less red in the picture (it's been a while since I have seen it).

I did come across the Black Rain HD Dvd I have. I should also have a vhs somewhere too.

 

[Bookmark]

Oh look I'm a Fool Audio

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There are some movies that just cannot be saved by ATMOS for me - Mama Mia 2, Ocean’s 8, Valerian, Mechanic Resurrection.

But there are movies where ATMOS really saved it for me, like “Now You See Me 2”. The other one was “Ready Player One”.

I think the ATMOS effects in “Now You See Me 2” are excellent.

Some people ask, “Just how many airplanes and helicopters can there be?” Well, there are both planes and helicopters flying overhead in this movie. Also fireworks and rain overhead.

Just excellent ATMOS sound overall in this movie.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There are some movies that just cannot be saved by ATMOS for me - Mama Mia 2, Ocean’s 8, Valerian.

But there are movies where ATMOS really saved it for me, like “Now You See Me 2”. The other one was “Ready Player One”.

I think the ATMOS effects in “Now You See Me 2” are excellent.

Some people ask, “Just how many airplanes and helicopters can there be?” Well, there are both planes and helicopters flying overhead in this movie. Also fireworks and rain overhead.

Just excellent ATMOS sound overall in this movie.

That’s interesting. I’ve noticed that movies that are mixed in Atmos have much better imaging/panning/clarity even when played back on a non Atmos system. Actually both of the NYSM films have great tracks. Just make sure you turn off your brain when you hit play, can only stretch the imagination so far lol.

Another point to your airplanes and helicopters question people ask, is that it’s so much more than flyovers and rain. Although, those things are better than ever...

 

[andyblackcat]

Who have thunk. There is a Pro Logic up mixer in there too. It is not just restricted to DSU and Neural X. I could give that a try.
View attachment 26385
This was of course written prior to the addition of Neural X.


I had a quick look and I would love to oblige, but alas my 2k+ collection is in monstrous, frequently double stacked piles all over the house and not in alphabetic/any order either. So if I come across it I will upload a pic. I do seem to remember it being in a paper/cardboard cover rather than a plastic shell case and have a lot less red in the picture (it's been a while since I have seen it).

I did come across the Black Rain HD Dvd I have. I should also have a vhs somewhere too.

Same artwork slightly different layout for the bluray.

 

[Bookmark]

The artwork for Blue Thunder is similar and probably is the same one as yours, so even if I locate it likely has the same problems. Although it may still have a stereo mix in there.

Black Rain came in the first flush of HD Dvd so is maybe similar if not identical to the bluray. They did prefer doing DD+ on those disc.

However today we will be doing something else. Double Sicario Atmos and 8 old classic horror

 

[Bookmark]

Sicario when released was supposed to have a very good Atmos. I do like my old dvd, so hopefully all good. Don't know much about the 2nd beyond they dropped Miss Blunt

The Classics have the original Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, Invisible Man, Phantom of the Opera, Wolfman and Creature from the Black Lagoon. Fond memories from my childhood, late night on BBC2. They may claim a Dts HD MA audio, but these are really mono, so not much point in DSU/Neural X here.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That’s interesting. I’ve noticed that movies that are mixed in Atmos have much better imaging/panning/clarity even when played back on a non Atmos system. Actually both of the NYSM films have great tracks. Just make sure you turn off your brain when you hit play, can only stretch the imagination so far lol.

Another point to your airplanes and helicopters question people ask, is that it’s so much more than flyovers and rain. Although, those things are better than ever...

Very true. The ATMOS movies seem to sound pretty great even when playing back on non-ATMOS systems, which I think is a win-win for everyone.

 

[Defcon]

I think any receiver with DSU/Atmos should also have PL II. They are by the same company so there are no additional licensing costs, the software/dsp is already in the chips, and there is no harm in having additional modes, as people have pointed out above some content does sound better in PL II.

 

[snakeeyes]

I’m not missing the older Dolby upmixers. DSU is very good. NeuralX is also a good upmixer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’m not missing the older Dolby upmixers. DSU is very good. NeuralX is also a good upmixer.

Yeah, absolutely no point of using the old Pro-Logic II or DTS Neo6 upmixers when we have new DS and DTSNX upmixers.

 

[Bookmark]

Yeah, absolutely no point of using the old Pro-Logic II or DTS Neo6 upmixers when we have new DS and DTSNX upmixers.

If we were sure the processing was handled in the same way for the new DSU/Neural X as the older Pro Logic, then Yes I would agree. I think Andy's indication for the 80s films is possibly at odds with that.

Both Sicario films are ok. I prefer the first film to the second, but they are eminently watchable. The Atmos tracks are good, but in a more subtle way than some of the other heavy handed Atmos tracks like San Andreas.

Did try an up mix of The Mummy and Spanish version of Dracula, however you would not really have known. It did nothing bad so that was good. The restoration looks to be well done. There is a good deal of grain from the on location shots, but this is to be expected from 1930s film stock. Apparently there is a 30 film collection coming out, but having seen the list I think I am happy with the 8. It does also include, as mentioned, the Spanish Dracula and the 3D Creature from the Black Lagoon, although this seems to have forgone the classic Red/Green glasses in favour of the newer formats.