Marantz AVR dropping signal

[PENG]

Hi All,

Just, literally-just, got my receiver back from service. It's not even 3 months old. hoping I'll have the time tomorrow to plug it all back in and put it through some warm up exercises. But til then, wanted to get the ball rolling on finding out if anybody else has had similar issues and some possible fixes.

Marantz SR6012:

the signal would just cut out for 3-5 seconds. Almost as if a relay were switching.

I think the key for us to help troubleshooting is to understand the symptoms first. So please clarify what you did you mean by "cut out for 3-5 seconds". I think you probably meant the music/sound would cut out for 3-5 seconds and then the sound would come back, like stuttering, but I don't want to assume..

If in fact the signal cuts out, then it is not the AVR's fault, no signal no output right? If the signal is strong as you mentioned, and not "cutting out", but it is the sound that would cut out 3-5 seconds at a time, then we would have to continue to check for network related issues, that should include the AVR itself. One thing you are clear about is that the issue only started since you acquired the Marantz, so what did you have before, and if you still have it, you may want to hook it back up just to prove that it is the AVR that is causing the issue.

 

[ryanosaur]

Is this what yours looks like?

I have looked at a couple of Onkyo HTIBS of that vintage. Although they claim to be 8 ohm, by speaker layout and configuration they have to be 4 ohm or less. In fact HTIB speakers are notorious for being difficult loads.

In addition, they are low quality speakers, and may well have some drivers with shorted turns in the VCs from over driving or close to max. I would test all those speakers with an ohm meter to get the DC resistance. See if there is one or more with a lower DC resistance. That would not surprise me. That fault is not uncommon and a real amp buster.

Personally from what you are experiencing I would shut that rig down until you have better non HTIB speakers.

Ha! That, TLS, looks like it might be the step up from what I have... color aside. (BTW, I'm not proud. but my Student Loan is. That I even had that, a 55" Samsung, and a PS3 at the time... I was Pimpin It!!! )
Model HT-S5100 (receiver is HT-R560, and speaker package is HTP-560).
I agree, they are low quality. (They actually sound good with the Marantz!) I am not pushing these to extreme limits, and it saddens me that I might have to do with out any audio for a bit longer.

Are you using a passive sub from the HTIB set?

It's an active subwoofer. (I'm not that hopeless. I hope. )

So please clarify what you did you mean by "cut out for 3-5 seconds". I think you probably meant the music/sound would cut out for 3-5 seconds and then the sound would come back, like stuttering, but I don't want to assume..

Indeed, Peng, I admit to my lack of specificity: the audio signal cuts out during playback, yes. It does not sound like a network dropping out (usually kind of sketchy; more intermittent or somewhat random, whereas this is pretty well defined and regular in its behavior, just not its occurance), rather a switching relay cutting out. After experimenting with making certain the Marantz survived the journey back to me, I will return to the Onkyo to see if any of this happens anew with the old Kit. *sigh (At least I didn't go all Office Space on it.)

Stay tuned: will report back tomorrow.

Thank you, all!

 

[highfigh]

u just broke my brain, highfigh. my understanding was all ethernets were backwards compatible and that i would just be providing better plumbing for the signal. getting ready for work now. will follow up later. cheers

They are, but it's not necessary and if you notice cable technology, ask yourself "What happened to Cat7? Where is it? Why doesn't anyone talk about that?

Cat5e is like Swiss Army Cable and in fact, the shielded version often works better than Cat6 for HDMI extenders.

 

[PENG]

Cat5e is like Swiss Army Cable and in fact, the shielded version often works better than Cat6 for HDMI extenders.

Cat5e is good but I don't see a reason not to use Cat6 aside from the slightly higher cost. In my company, I have never heard our IT guys complain about installation issues with Cat6 cables. Is there a specific issue you have with Cat6, other than the cost difference?

 

[PENG]

Indeed, Peng, I admit to my lack of specificity: the audio signal cuts out during playback, yes. It does not sound like a network dropping out (usually kind of sketchy; more intermittent or somewhat random, whereas this is pretty well defined and regular in its behavior, just not its occurance),rather a switching relay cutting out.

Sorry, I am still not clear, because audio signal is not specific enough in this case because there are the signals coming out from your source (PC, mobile devices etc.),input to a streaming devices, routers etc., from there output to your AVR via HDMI, analog etc., or from your source direct to your AVR via the Ethernet and then the AVR handle the signal, amplify it and output it to the speaker. Any part of the signal path could be what you refer to as the audio signal.

So, again, did you mean it is the "input signal" to the AVR, that is, NOT the AVR's output to the speaker? If so, how do you know that for sure?

This is important to know for sure because if it is the sound coming out of the speakers that got cut out, then you cannot rule out the AVR. If somehow you have already determined that it is the signal input to the AVR, that you referred to as the "audio signal", then the issue is upstream of the AVR. In that case it would mean most unlikely (though not totally impossible) the AVR is not the issue and we can focus on issues related to the upstream devices such as the Airport devices you mentioned, and everything else upstream.

Another stupid question I have is, could you locate that "switching relay thing.."? Did you hear the switching click sound or you are just guessing there is a relay switching?

This is an interesting issue you are having, so thank you for sharing, and please do report back when you have the issue nailed down and fixed.

 

[highfigh]

Cat5e is good but I don't see a reason not to use Cat6 aside from the slightly higher cost. In my company, I have never heard our IT guys complain about installation issues with Cat6 cables. Is there a specific issue you have with Cat6, other than the cost difference?

No problem, just making the point that the RJ45 ends aren't the same and it's really not needed for this application.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry, I am still not clear, because audio signal is not specific enough in this case because there are the signals coming out from your source (PC, mobile devices etc.),input to a streaming devices, routers etc., from there output to your AVR via HDMI, analog etc., or from your source direct to your AVR via the Ethernet and then the AVR handle the signal, amplify it and output it to the speaker. Any part of the signal path could be what you refer to as the audio signal.

So, again, did you mean it is the "input signal" to the AVR, that is, NOT the AVR's output to the speaker? If so, how do you know that for sure?

This is important to know for sure because if it is the sound coming out of the speakers that got cut out, then you cannot rule out the AVR. If somehow you have already determined that it is the signal input to the AVR, that you referred to as the "audio signal", then the issue is upstream of the AVR. In that case it would mean most unlikely (though not totally impossible) the AVR is not the issue and we can focus on issues related to the upstream devices such as the Airport devices you mentioned, and everything else upstream.

Another stupid question I have is, could you locate that "switching relay thing.."? Did you hear the switching click sound or you are just guessing there is a relay switching?

This is an interesting issue you are having, so thank you for sharing, and please do report back when you have the issue nailed down and fixed.

PENG, the electro mechanical relay (EMR) is fast going the way of the dodo. They are being replaced rapidly by solid state contactless relays with no moving parts at all and therefore make no sound.

As you can see these work very well with optocouplers, now the preferred circuit for protection.

Here are Digi-key's offerings. As you can see they are very cheap most under a dollar. An EMR is ten or more times the price. This is an instance where it is a win for the consumer as with no moving parts, or contacts to corrode wear down and foul, the expectation is for much greater reliability and much less latency in operation.

I highly doubt a recently produced item will have EMRs now. So asking the OP to see if he can hear a relay is almost certainly futile.

 

[PENG]

PENG, the electro mechanical relay (EMR) is fast going the way of the dodo. They are being replaced rapidly by solid state contactless relays with no moving parts at all and therefore make no sound.

As you can see these work very well with optocouplers, now the preferred circuit for protection.

Here are Digi-key's offerings. As you can see they are very cheap most under a dollar. An EMR is ten or more times the price. This is an instance where it is a win for the consumer as with no moving parts, or contacts to corrode wear down and foul, the expectation is for much greater reliability and much less latency in operation.

I highly doubt a recently produced item will have EMRs now. So asking the OP to see if he can hear a relay is almost certainly futile.

That's true, but the first step is to figure out if we can rule out the Marantz being the culprit. And by the way the SR6012 still have a few emrs that clicks.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's true, but the first step is to figure out if we can rule out the Marantz being the culprit. And by the way the SR6012 still have a few emrs that clicks.

He has this problem with both digital and analog inputs. His receiver checked out OK. My money is heavily on the speakers being the issue. Actually we don't discuss speakers being the cause of amp failures. That is much more common than you might think.

 

[ryanosaur]

Alas, I am not without fault in my descriptions, but I think TLS has the right of it. The sources have worked previously, and currently, without the AVR. Speaker wire and network issues are more irregular in their misbehavior, in my experiences. Though I cannot account for the modern safety features built into this AVR from previous experiences. Also, the tech said no safety triggers have been tripped according to her inspection.

I have tested some of the speakers from the Onkyo HTIB: 6.6 Ohms. I have to get others off the wall to test and...

The In-laws arrived yesterday as an interesting complication. or

As I progress through the rest of the speakers... if they all test at 6.6, should I reset the AVR to output for 6 ohms and see if the problem persists?

I do have the Onkyo close at hand, so I won't be without audio, really. just sad that I might not be able to enjoy the real deal for 2+ weeks!

Appreciate all your help, everybody that's chimed in, and I will spend some time on this tonight. I'll be back soon!

Thank you!

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's the AH take on using the impedance setting switch....short of it is leave it at the higher setting. https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1. More I read the more I suspect the Marantz if you haven't abused the speakers but trading them out for other speakers would be a great test...

 

[ryanosaur]

I would test all those speakers with an ohm meter to get the DC resistance.

Whew. So peaceful here right now. Nothing but the sound of me climbing stepstools, disconnecting speaker wire, and playing with ye olde multimeter:

Impedance as follows:
Rt: 6.5
C: 6.9
Lt: 6.5
SRt: 19.8
SLt: 7.2
BRt: 7.3
BLt: 16.8

I have two other pair of 8-Ohm speakers that I used to use back in the day... Could be substiituted in for short term usage if the numbers aren't too f'd:
Pair 1: 5.9 and 8.0 (Radio Shack Optimus 3-way bookshelf)
Pair 2: 4.6 and 4.8 (Radio Shack Optimus 2-way bookshelf; Linaeum Tweeter)

As of yet, I haven't hooked the AVR back up, but at least I have this snapshot of the speakers I've been using. *facepalm

Thanks again, all!

 

[ryanosaur]

That's true, but the first step is to figure out if we can rule out the Marantz being the culprit. And by the way the SR6012 still have a few emrs that clicks.

I truly don't recall hearing a clicking sound, but when the audio signal would drop, it would occur across all speakers simultaneously.

 

[PENG]

I truly don't recall hearing a clicking sound, but when the audio signal would drop, it would occur across all speakers simultaneously.

Since for some reason you are not answering my question about what exactly you meant by "audio signal", and I am very interested in the issue you are facing, so I am going to take a guess and hope you don't think I am putting words in your mouth.

Okay, so I assume by "audio signal" you meant the signal going to the speakers. This is the worse scenario, because then the root cause could be the AVR, or any components, including your network connectors, cables, Airport devices, routers, modems, media players etc., basically anything that handles the "audio signal".

There is no problem narrowing down which part of the "audio signal" chain is the culprit, but you would have to take the time to isolate them one at a time.

For example:

1. If you put the Onkyo back and the trouble goes away, then you know it is not the AVR.

2. If you turn the volume down say 3 to 6 clicks, and the problem goes away, then it is not your speakers.

Note: This step is to bring it from 90% certainty to 99%, that the speakers are not the issue because if the DC resistance of the speakers are more than 6 ohms, then the impedance (to AC signal) will be much higher, 6 ohm in this case would therefor be the absolute minimum. The 4 ohm rated SR6012 (I have read the service should not be activated by even truly 4 ohm speakers if the volume is turned down to say below -15 (still very loud for a lot of people assuming used in a medium size room sitting distance <3 meters. Also, if it was the AVR's protective circuit activating, then the "audio signal" should not have cut out for a few seconds and come back up, it should have stayed down/out.

If the speakers and AVR are not the issue, then you have to start isolating the components and connections upstream from the AVR. According to TLSGuy, the problem was the same with both digital and analog source, I assume this meant still going through the streaming device (otherwise the issue is obviously the AVR),then you have to find a way to systematically eliminate one thing at a time. I can help if you can clearly describe all the components and connections from the source (PC, AppleTV etc.) all the way to the AVR's input. A rough sketch would do.. Good luck!

 

[TLS Guy]

Lets clear this up once and for all. Connect something like a CD player to an analog input and play it. Do you then have the problem? Then connect the CD player via HDMI. Do you have the problem? Now stream. Do you have the problem?

The DC resistance of those speakers looks to be OK.

 

[PENG]

Lets clear this up once and for all. Connect something like a CD player to an analog input and play it. Do you then have the problem? Then connect the CD player via HDMI. Do you have the problem? Now stream. Do you have the problem?

The DC resistance of those speakers looks to be OK.

That would at least clear something up for sure!!

I guess you now see why I kept asking the questions on:
- where exactly that "audio signal" cut out occur, if at speaker terminal, I would have called that "sound..cut out..", to avoid confusion.
- Did the 3-5 seconds "cut out", stutter like, that it would come back after that pause and then resume, and process repeat, I believe on that one he sort of confirm, but just sort of..

The thing is, if it is like your initial thought, that the AVR didn't like the speakers, it would have stayed "out" and wouldn't come back until it gets reset, and I would expect some flashing red lights too if and when that happened.

 

[highfigh]

How many CD players have HDMI?

I don't remember seeing anyone ask, so I will- have you tried using headphones or ear buds to listen for the interruption with the speaker selector in the OFF position (in the event that the headphone jack doesn't turn them off automatically)?

 

[PENG]

How many CD players have HDMI?

I don't remember seeing anyone ask, so I will- have you tried using headphones or ear buds to listen for the interruption with the speaker selector in the OFF position (in the event that the headphone jack doesn't turn them off automatically)?

I suppose he meant play a CD on an universal, DVD or BDP..

 

[KEW]

I suppose he meant play a CD on an universal, DVD or BDP..

Yeah, on most of my systems, my DVD/BD player is my CD player!

 

[ryanosaur]

All your updates are greatly appreciated!!! I am working on this now (finally!). The Lady is gone for the day, and my low-fi-trying-to-become-hifi @$$ is on it.

Peng: I'm not meaning to be daft. Had hoped I answered you clearly. The Audio Signal I am referring to is what is "inside" the AVR. I have seen no indication of speaker wire failure, nor speaker failure. The speakers, however, is where the symptom appears, as somwhere between the input and output, there is an interuption that occurs, affecting all channels simultaneaously. There is no audible clipping, hissing, popping, or other distortion sound through the speakers. Likewise, I do not recall any audible 'click,' as if a mechanical relay were tripping. I do know the sound from older gear I used to use a very long time ago.

I am going to begin by connecting the full 7.1 kit and seeing if there is an immediate repeat of the problem. I will also check, if it does occur on the Onkyo kit, what happens with just stereo channels using a pair of optimus speakers only. If it occurs again, I will switch to headphones. This seems like the best way to identify if it is occurring in the output. If I hear it through headphones with no speakers attached, then it would be more likely to be input related, I will will look at trying different connections using a Playstation as my audio source (only thing available to me at current).

Will report back in soon.