What do I need for subs for these speakers

[shadyJ]

I wonder if 3 HSU VTF3’s with one near field (by the listener) would be a better buy than only 2 SVS or 2 Outlaw or 2 Monolith.

Three VTF-3s would be a pretty beastly system. It's a lot like the VTF15h mk2 except it isn't tuned quite as low, so it won't handle the super deep frequency stuff as well. If you have a hard target of 16 Hz, it won't do that frequency extremely well (it will still do it though), but three of them ought to do 20 Hz very nicely. It can be tuned to 17 Hz or 22 Hz. I have heard a VTF-3 mk5, but its the only Hsu sub in their present line-up that I haven't dug into and measured. One thing I like about it is its weight. It is a monster performer that is only 85 lbs. That is something I can move myself. It's actually a more significant advantage than most people realize.

 

[snakeeyes]

Three VTF-3s would be a pretty beastly system. It's a lot like the VTF15h mk2 except it isn't tuned quite as low, so it won't handle the super deep frequency stuff as well. If you have a hard target of 16 Hz, it won't do that frequency extremely well (it will still do it though), but three of them ought to do 20 Hz very nicely. It can be tuned to 17 Hz or 22 Hz. I have heard a VTF-3 mk5, but its the only Hsu sub in their present line-up that I haven't dug into and measured. One thing I like about it is its weight. It is a monster performer that is only 85 lbs. That is something I can move myself. It's actually a more significant advantage than most people realize.

Ya just thinking if someone was going to spend in the $2500 range, they can get 3 VTF3 instead of 2 of the other brands.

 

[ryanosaur]

I wonder if 3 HSU VTF3’s with one near field (by the listener) would be a better buy than only 2 SVS or 2 Outlaw or 2 Monolith.

I hear quad subs is the way to go... 'cos then you get the discount instead of paying full price for the third!

 

[shadyJ]

I hear quad subs is the way to go... 'cos then you get the discount instead of paying full price for the third!

If you called any of these companies and asked for quads, they could probably give you a discount on shipping if you arranged to have them shipped by freight. I would arrange to have that many subs shipped on a pallet by freight, not by fedex or UPS.

 

[ryanosaur]

In a situation like that, I would get some beefy subs if possible. I think the 15"s from Hsu would do the trick as would the Outlaw subs. The Monoprice Monolith subs are very good too, but I would be looking at the Monolith 15" at a minimum for that room. The SVS subs are great but in that situation I would go for a couple 4000s at the very least. All of these subs are good, and I have very detailed measurement sets and a lot of experience with all of them. You can't lose from any choice in that selection.

The best thing a person can do, anywhere, anytime, is to not be afraid to ask a question. That's what I had to do to begin understanding this. Subs are different from speakers are different from amps... I originally budgeted for just 1 pb1000! Oblivious, or under-educated can be a dangerous place.

Gotta ask, Shady, who else do you like in the sub category?

 

[ryanosaur]

If you called any of these companies and asked for quads, they could probably give you a discount on shipping if you arranged to have them shipped by freight. I would arrange to have that many subs shipped on a pallet by freight, not by fedex or UPS.

if you called any of those companies (except maybe mono) and told them to ship you four subs, they should give you a hearty discount, a t-shirt, and a spot on their website with your photo!

 

[shadyJ]

The best thing a person can do, anywhere, anytime, is to not be afraid to ask a question. That's what I had to do to begin understanding this. Subs are different from speakers are different from amps... I originally budgeted for just 1 pb1000! Oblivious, or under-educated can be a dangerous place.

Gotta ask, Shady, who else do you like in the sub category?

some other quality manufacturers are JTR, Deep Sea Sound, Funk Audio, Rythmik Audio, Seaton Sound. XTZ's subs are certainly going to be quality. RBH's Signature subs are going to be good but a bit expensive, same with Legacy. Paradigm has a new 15" that I have good reason to believe is an absolute beast. Martin-Logan's new 15" is very good too. I am sure there are others that I am forgetting too.

 

[snakeeyes]

I hear quad subs is the way to go... 'cos then you get the discount instead of paying full price for the third!

I’m thinking the price for 2 should extend to a similar price per unit when you buy 3. I could be wrong of course.

 

[ryanosaur]

All this talk has made me revisit Rhythmik. I think when I first looked, I was still thinking a $500 dollar sub would do it all for me and they were more expensive for anything low freq.
Shady, or anybody else... Do you have any experience with the Rythmik F25? Thoughts and input? it's still more than I want to spend for dual subs (2 units), but their description and specs look real promising for me. (mostly music, some HT, and low extension capable of hitting those low organ harmonics.

 

[ryanosaur]

I’m thinking the price for 2 should extend to a similar price per unit when you buy 3. I could be wrong of course.

(Meant it as a joke. Alas, that's why I became a chef instead of a comic.) Though I do agree. Monoprice doesn't do that at all. Their website has the pricing set as $1249.99 for 2-50+; only $50 off per unit. Stodgy bastards.
The smaller independent companies would probably take better care of you. That's probably the main reason I'm not leaning towards the Mono15. Impressive specs, but a stick up the butt when it comes to customer support.

Updated: One extra thought... I might say the same about Hsu, but their pricing is already so aggressive for what you are supposed to be getting. I really want to see some 3rd party testing on the VTF15Hmk2. (Dunno if I missed it somewhere, but i'm almost looking for a reason to not order the X-13s!)

 

[shadyJ]

All this talk has made me revisit Rhythmik. I think when I first looked, I was still thinking a $500 dollar sub would do it all for me and they were more expensive for anything low freq.
Shady, or anybody else... Do you have any experience with the Rythmik F25? Thoughts and input? it's still more than I want to spend for dual subs (2 units), but their description and specs look real promising for me. (mostly music, some HT, and low extension capable of hitting those low organ harmonics.

No experience with that sub. I'm sure it's a nice sub. Two of them should get pretty loud above 40 Hz and still have enough excursion for some deep bass too. I'm not a big fan of the 170 lbs weight though. A ported sub would have deep bass that is more commensurate with mid bass output. A ported sub could hit those deep bass notes significantly better too. An alternative sealed system would be to take a couple ULS-15 mk2s and stack them. That will likely be quite a bit more powerful, and easier to physically manage, and it would cost about the same.

 

[snakeeyes]

(Meant it as a joke. Alas, that's why I became a chef instead of a comic.) Though I do agree. Monoprice doesn't do that at all. Their website has the pricing set as $1249.99 for 2-50+; only $50 off per unit. Stodgy bastards.
The smaller independent companies would probably take better care of you. That's probably the main reason I'm not leaning towards the Mono15. Impressive specs, but a stick up the butt when it comes to customer support.

Updated: One extra thought... I might say the same about Hsu, but their pricing is already so aggressive for what you are supposed to be getting. I really want to see some 3rd party testing on the VTF15Hmk2. (Dunno if I missed it somewhere, but i'm almost looking for a reason to not order the X-13s!)

You like the idea of a sub right near your seat? Think would ideally need to be a few feet from you like behind your couch facing your back.

 

[ryanosaur]

No experience with that sub. I'm sure it's a nice sub. Two of them should get pretty loud above 40 Hz and still have enough excursion for some deep bass too. I'm not a big fan of the 170 lbs weight though. A ported sub would have deep bass that is more commensurate with mid bass output. A ported sub could hit those deep bass notes significantly better too. An alternative sealed system would be to take a couple ULS-15 mk2s and stack them. That will likely be quite a bit more powerful, and easier to physically manage, and it would cost about the same.

I've been looking almost excusively at ported subs.
Rhythmik says:
"For combined music and home theatre systems, many of our 15" sealed subs are a good all round compromise. Our dual sealed 15" F25 is a very good choice, offering the LFE output of our vented subs but with the added bonus of greater midbass efficiency and output."
Now I don't see an SPL rating (and I'm still trying to understand if that translates into maximum spl?) for the f25, but they seem to claim 12.5 hz is possible. Here my concern is "can it fill my room?"
How the Hsu ULS15mk2, there is again no SPL rating, no claim of low extension below the 20Hz mark, and a graph that to my untrained eyes shows a pretty hard rolloff at 20Hz, even the the Audiholics review seems to indicate it does have some lower extension and confirms my instinct of a steep rolloff, but then IF I am understanding the SPL rating properly, this isn't rated for an extreme room by AH, rather is rated for large room at around 115?
Please clarify?
Now it would be a sight to see 2 ULS stacked... Twice over! Then again, it would be a sight to see 2 VTFs stacked twice over!

 

[ryanosaur]

You like the idea of a sub right near your seat? Think would ideally need to be a few feet from you like behind your couch facing your back.

How about an up-firing orientation, a sturdy grill, and we just forget the couch!

 

[shadyJ]

I've been looking almost excusively at ported subs.
Rhythmik says:
"For combined music and home theatre systems, many of our 15" sealed subs are a good all round compromise. Our dual sealed 15" F25 is a very good choice, offering the LFE output of our vented subs but with the added bonus of greater midbass efficiency and output."
Now I don't see an SPL rating (and I'm still trying to understand if that translates into maximum spl?) for the f25, but they seem to claim 12.5 hz is possible. Here my concern is "can it fill my room?"
How the Hsu ULS15mk2, there is again no SPL rating, no claim of low extension below the 20Hz mark, and a graph that to my untrained eyes shows a pretty hard rolloff at 20Hz, even the the Audiholics review seems to indicate it does have some lower extension and confirms my instinct of a steep rolloff, but then IF I am understanding the SPL rating properly, this isn't rated for an extreme room by AH, rather is rated for large room at around 115?
Please clarify?
Now it would be a sight to see 2 ULS stacked... Twice over! Then again, it would be a sight to see 2 VTFs stacked twice over!

The F25 isn't going to rock 12 Hz, that is for sure. It might if you listen to it in a closet. It just doesn't have enough displacement for big low frequency output, especially if used in a large room. I think it could give you some good sound overall, but it will be a lot more capable at 40 Hz and above than below. A ported sub will have deep bass output that is on a more even keel with its mid bass output.

I wouldn't worry about SPL ratings. They mean very little. Hsu does post much more meaningful dynamic range data in their CEA-2010 tables. Rythmik doesn't have any useful data like that in their product pages, but they did send some subs to data-bass.com not too long ago to have their sub's performance shown, although not the F25.

Again, I wouldn't use sealed subs to chase after deep frequencies. That is just not their wheelhouse. If you are really interested in 16 Hz in a large room, there is no substitution for ported subs. Well, there are sealed subs that can do that (Mariana 24", Funk 24.0) but it doesn't look like those are in your budget. An F25 might give you some soft 16 Hz output in your room, but it wouldn't be nearly as loud as its 40+Hz output.

 

[shadyJ]

I really want to see some 3rd party testing on the VTF15Hmk2. (Dunno if I missed it somewhere, but i'm almost looking for a reason to not order the X-13s!)

I have done a bunch of testing on the VTF15h mk2. Hsu's CEA-2010 data is very close to what I have, so you can consider their measurements to be reliable numbers. Not that I am trying to give you a reason not to order the X13, that is also an outstanding subwoofer.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks Shady! Working my way through your list, was just on Deep Sea. Wow, those are impressive. If I get one, you wanna come help set it up? 210# Sweet Jebus my back is twinging just thinking about it!
I already wrote off trying to be a serial killer... too much manual labor! But now this audio stuff!

 

[Danzilla31]

I wonder if 3 HSU VTF3’s with one near field (by the listener) would be a better buy than only 2 SVS or 2 Outlaw or 2 Monolith.

I say go with 4! 2 near field! I love the number 4!

 

[Danzilla31]

Thanks Shady! Working my way through your list, was just on Deep Sea. Wow, those are impressive. If I get one, you wanna come help set it up? 210# Sweet Jebus my back is twinging just thinking about it!
I already wrote off trying to be a serial killer... too much manual labor! But now this audio stuff!

I'm in a similar boat as well as you I have a 8500 cubic feet of air room? I think I'm saying that right. Shady helped me brainstorm some choices I went with 2 PB 4000's and LOVE them like you I'm only using 1/3 I believe of the total space for music. I also love the X13's from outlaw and when I move up to quad subs I plan on ordering duals of those for near field they will fit perfectly behind my couches. They should pair well with the 4000"s If you don't mind me asking what is your price range your trying to stay at. I almost pulled the trigger on the Rhythmik FV25HP's and I don't believe they would be too much more on the budget then dual SVS. They would do vert well in that room although if your in a main living room like mine there size and looks might be an issue. Aesthetics is a factor which is why I went with SVS for the front and will go with Outlaws for the back

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi Danzilla!
Budget? Ha! As little as possible for as much as possible? Mind, I'm upgrading the whole kit at once. And my budget is already upside down. (Don't tell my Lady!) The rule of thumb of speakers being 2/3 the budget and your receiver 1/3 or whatever(3/4-1/4?)?... Bought my Marantz SR6012 on sale for $900 over the summer. was originally gonna go with the 5012 reg price 999. So, $3K was meant to be my speaker budget. Then I was thinking, "well its actually a $1500 AVR so I should fudge it up to $4500." Then as I shopped and learned and learned and shopped, I kept sliding upwards. Now I'm basically shopping for my forever speakers and subs, and an amp (front 3), with the knowledge that I'm probably going to upgrade my AVR to a Surround Pre/Pro in a year or so, along with a separate amp to run my 4 surrounds. (I am pretty starry-eyed about the RMC-1.)
Anyway, none of that answers your question.
If I were to buy 7.0 Setup: Emotiva Airmotiv rig for $2130, I would have no concern dropping 3 at this point on dual PB or PC 4000s. (Again though, an svs rep thought dual 4000s might not handle my room, so Outlaw or Hsu duals... still no concern.) Likewise, a Monitor Audio Bronze rig would run $2400. Review after review, I kept crossing things off my list and creeping up in budget. My main front runners have become Monitor Audio Silvers at $5300.
So then, how much more for the subs, and how much for that amp?
I am looking at another option that might give me a full 7.2 system, fully matched, at around $7K I'm hoping. All told, I would prefer not spending over 2 on dual subs, but outlaw shipped is $2800. I can drive to Hsu and back same day for $1749 plus gas and a phat lunch in LA -- Koreatown, perhaps?...

I like that FV15HP, too. Also, the FV18. I have concerns that the FV25HP might lack a little power for my room, though.

You however, have two PB4000s... and love them. What are your thoughts? Are they doing what you want, and how you want?

I've been warned by many of our friends here about mixing subs... Why do you want to mix pairs? I would think you should get 2 more of the same so everything matches tight. Anybody care to support or rebut, please?

So Danzilla, did I answer your question? It will probably be Outlaw or Hsu that wins my business, unless this other company impresses me.

Cheers!