Can similar AVRs sound that different?

H

Hobbit

Senior Audioholic
I just got a Denon AVR-X3400H to replace my dying Integra 40.2. The only thing I did was swap out the AVRs. Everything else, speakers, external amp, and room configuration, all stayed the same and weren't touched.

After going through the installation I thought the Denon sounded better than the Integra. Not only does the Denon sound clearer, it also seems to have a better sound stage. I thought it was all in my head, a placebo effect. Then last night my girlfriend commented that it "sounds crisper than the old one." The difference is noticable when watching movies (surround) or music (stereo).

Does the newer AVR have that much better of chip set? Is it the Audyssey MultEQ XT32? Something else? Or is it just in our heads?
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I just got a Denon AVR-X3400H to replace my dying Integra 40.2. The only thing I did was swap out the AVRs. Everything else, speakers, external amp, and room configuration, all stayed the same and weren't touched.

After going through the installation I thought the Denon sounded better than the Integra. Not only does the Denon sound clearer, it also seems to have a better sound stage. I thought it was all in my head, a placebo effect. Then last night my girlfriend commented that it "sounds crisper than the old one." The difference is noticable when watching movies (surround) or music (stereo).

Does the newer AVR have that much better of chip set? Is it the Audyssey MultEQ XT32? Something else? Or is it just in our heads?
Oh I'd say so. I had a Yamaha for years and just replaced with a Denon X3400H and it's night and day better sounding. How much does Audyssey have to do with that I don't know. Either way the Denon is much, much better sounding. I love my system again. Making my Def Tech's sounds incredible!

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L

Leemix

Audioholic General
Have you tried without audyssey multiEQ?


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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I would say undoubtedly what you’re experiencing is the effects of Audyssey. In almost every situation like this the room correction software is what makes things sound different. See if turning Audyssey off makes it sound like before.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Oh I'd say so. I had a Yamaha for years and just replaced with a Denon X3400H and it's night and day better sounding. How much does Audyssey have to do with that I don't know. Either way the Denon is much, much better sounding. I love my system again. Making my Def Tech's sounds incredible!

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Which Yamaha?
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
RX-V663.

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Ya that Yamaha 600 series is a bit underpowered. I use a V681 for a 3.2 system in my living room, the twin HSU VTF2 subs do the heavy work so it works out. :). My theater room, on the other hand, has an A2060. :).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
After going through the installation I thought the Denon sounded better than the Integra. Not only does the Denon sound clearer, it also seems to have a better sound stage. I thought it was all in my head, a placebo effect. Then last night my girlfriend commented that it "sounds crisper than the old one." The difference is noticable when watching movies (surround) or music (stereo).
I have only compared the AVR-X3400H with my old AVR-3805 and a pair of Azur-840E/Halo A21 in 2.0 and 2.1 using external DACs. I thought the Denon actually sounded slightly more transparent even in pure direct, but it wasn't a controlled test and I was sure it was "all in my head", though I would have thought Placebo should have worked the other way around.:D With Audyssey on, it sounded even better, noticeable but no significant difference.

Does the newer AVR have that much better of chip set?
Different chip set for sure, but are theoretically limited by the weakest link, and that could be the volume control chips, as an example and as cited by Dr. Rich in the article linked below. According to him, to avoid that LSI volume control chip and other LSI chips, you would have to go pick the right integrated amps, certainly not the entry level ones made by companies that also make AVRs and AVPs. Interesting, his table happened to show several Onkyo/Integra models did use some presumably better SSI chips.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/
"A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences.
Unfortunately it is not possible to actually do this listening test just proposed in practice because the Yamaha RX-V367, like almost all low cost AVRS produced today, does not have preamp outputs. The experiment would be possible using the older RX-V665 ($550)"


In that article, he claimed (not quite true according my research on the topic)that:

"Even a low-cost stereo integrated amplifier will offer better performance in its analog input to its preamp output than an AVR in direct mode, since stereo products are made from SSI chips and, occasionally, relays. Value-priced stereo preamps with exceptional internal parts quality, including the electronic volume control chip, such as the Emotiva XSP-1 recently reviewed in Secrets (link shown below),will reveal any coloration of the LSI chip in the AVRs in direct mode."

According to what I could see in a few service manuals I downloaded for several integrated amps and AVRs, many "cheap stereo integrated amps, such as Yamaha's A-S801 and lower models also used similar ICs found in their AVRs. If I may borrow the term originated by @ADTG, those seem to be AVR based integrated amps.:D

I believe he's right about the sound being "relatively constant" among AVRs/AVPs, but I definitely don't believe the so called cheap integrated amps, or even expensive ones, can reveal "any coloration of the LSI chip in the AVRs in direct mode" as such. The LSI chips he referred to, are getting better, and I don't think they are the bottleneck any more. In fact, I would trust those ICs more so than custom designed analog circuits that you have to rely on the competence and attitude of the designers.
 
H

Hobbit

Senior Audioholic
Have you tried without audyssey multiEQ?


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It's going to be hard to do anything to check the difference. I'm not going to put the Integra, which intermittently works, back in...

The Intergra had an older version of Audyssey MultiEQ, which I used, not the x32 the Denon has.
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
It's going to be hard to do anything to check the difference. I'm not going to put the Integra, which intermittently works, back in...

The Intergra had an older version of Audyssey MultiEQ, not the x32 the Denon has.
Gah, sorry wrote wrong, was thinking dynamicEQ, but if you are used to using it on older version thats what you should continue with and enjoy the improvement :)


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H

Hobbit

Senior Audioholic
I have only compared the AVR-X3400H with my old AVR-3805 and a pair of Azur-840E/Halo A21 in 2.0 and 2.1 using external DACs. I thought the Denon actually sounded slightly more transparent even in pure direct, but it wasn't a controlled test and I was sure it was "all in my head", though I would have thought Placebo should have worked the other way around.:D With Audyssey on, it sounded even better, noticeable but no significant difference.


I believe he's right about the sound being "relatively constant" among AVRs/AVPs, but I definitely don't believe the so called cheap integrated amps, or even expensive ones, can reveal "any coloration of the LSI chip in the AVRs in direct mode" as such. The LSI chips he referred to, are getting better, and I don't think they are the bottleneck any more. In fact, I would trust those ICs more so than custom designed analog circuits that you have to rely on the competence and attitude of the designers.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears the 3400 sound better! In my mind I was expecting the sound to be so similar it would be hard to notice a difference. Even more so when in stereo mode. IOW, the x32 Audyssey would mostly improve movies.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IOW, the x32 Audyssey would mostly improve movies.
Agreed, but do try different crossover frequencies to find out what works best for you. I have tower speakers with good response down to 30 Hz, but found 90 Hz best, much better than 60 Hz and a little better than 80 Hz.
 
H

Hobbit

Senior Audioholic
Agreed, but do try different crossover frequencies to find out what works best for you. I have tower speakers with good response down to 30 Hz, but found 90 Hz best, much better than 60 Hz and a little better than 80 Hz.
For sure! I did this with the Integra. Haven't had time to play with it yet on the Denon. My towers go to 32Hz and I'm running dual subs.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not the first time someone thought the "new" sounded better than the "old".

Not just with AVR, but with speakers, AVR, pre-pros, amps.

A person could go from a Denon X3400 to a X3500 and get "better" sound.

A person could go from a Denon AVP-A1HDCI to a Yamaha CX-A5100 and get "better" sound.

Any-brand-NEW seem to sound better than any-brand-OLD (brand = Denon, Yamaha, Sony, Anthem, etc.).

The salient thing is that it sounds better to you, and that's a great thing.

Just know that it's not just going from an Integra to a Denon or from a Yamaha to a Denon. It could be any brand and any model number.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
I just got a Denon AVR-X3400H to replace my dying Integra 40.2. The only thing I did was swap out the AVRs. Everything else, speakers, external amp, and room configuration, all stayed the same and weren't touched.

After going through the installation I thought the Denon sounded better than the Integra. Not only does the Denon sound clearer, it also seems to have a better sound stage. I thought it was all in my head, a placebo effect. Then last night my girlfriend commented that it "sounds crisper than the old one." The difference is noticable when watching movies (surround) or music (stereo).

Does the newer AVR have that much better of chip set? Is it the Audyssey MultEQ XT32? Something else? Or is it just in our heads?
When I replaced my Onkyo TX-NR809(no slouch itself) with my current Denon AVR-X5200, I immediately noticed a more "immediate" sound on transients, and it was just more "musical" sounding to me, fwiw. And the difference cannot be chalked up to Audessy or any sound processing because I do not use it. I just use direct or pure direct modes.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Hmmm.. :rolleyes:
Whats Hi-Fi? magazine (January 2018) did a test review of the 3400 and commented...
" Each quavering lilt is delivered wryly, and with a gloss coating, thanks to a wonderfully rich midrange and dose of bass weight giving voices their natural tone..."
But no frequency response graphs are shown...
I wonder if the 3400's frequency response has some peaks and may not be flat....

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hmmm.. :rolleyes:
Whats Hi-Fi? magazine (January 2018) did a test review of the 3400 and commented...
" Each quavering lilt is delivered wryly, and with a gloss coating, thanks to a wonderfully rich midrange and dose of bass weight giving voices their natural tone..."
But no frequency response graphs are shown...
I wonder if the 3400's frequency response has some peaks and may not be flat....

Just my $0.02... ;)
Sounds like a crap review resorting to odd subjective descriptors. What hifi is not a reliable source IMO.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As far as sounding different....could be all of what's been mentioned, expectations, difference in upgrade to XT32, certain components in the avr....hard to know plus your sonic memory isn't all that reliable let alone accurate.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hmmm.. :rolleyes:
Whats Hi-Fi? magazine (January 2018) did a test review of the 3400 and commented...
" Each quavering lilt is delivered wryly, and with a gloss coating, thanks to a wonderfully rich midrange and dose of bass weight giving voices their natural tone..."
But no frequency response graphs are shown...
I wonder if the 3400's frequency response has some peaks and may not be flat....

Just my $0.02... ;)
Hey M code, in this case I wouldn't worry about FR of that little gem, because the bench test data seemed to support the published specs indicating virtually flat FR from 20-20,000 Hz.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.04 dB at 10 Hz
–0.01 dB at 20 Hz
+0.11 dB at 20 kHz
–2.59 dB at 50 kHz
Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.11 dB at 10 Hz
–0.03 dB at 20 Hz
–0.31 dB at 20 kHz
–61.85 dB at 50 kHz

Also, on the AH bench results, the basically identical (in pure direct mode) AVR-X3300W measured -3 dB at 50 kHz, a little worse than S&V's but he still called it ruler flat from 20-20,000 Hz and his did not show any bumps, not even the negligible +0.11 dB at 20 kHz S&V had for the PD mode. If anything, you only see dips on the digital side.



I have no idea why the AVR-X3400H sounds so good subjectively too, so I know why you are questioning. Again, it could be expectation bias at work, that we don't expect something that simple, and cheap (relatively speaking) can be that good. Don't tell Hetfield, but I think the low street price tag probably is messing with his head too:D

This thing has received enough praises by AH owners already, for $599 or less street price now, it deserves an owner's thread so that we can start collecting all sorts of flowering words on its sound signature, @ADTG where are you when we need you to start an owner's thread?
 

TechHDS

Audioholic General
Excellent thread guys!! I’ve had this very same experience with different AVR’s, passed it off on, engineering, different parts used, or just a sleight of my memory from old AVR to the new one.

Mike
 
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