Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

[PENG]

This article highlights the upgrades for Yamaha's new separates:
Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200 Separates

Sadly no 13.2CH processing, no Auro-3D, not sure about HDMI 2.1, no enhanced bass management stuff I've been asking for , only difference with new amp is ability to bridge front channels Still good gear though but was expecting more....

At least the price is good, better bang for the $ than Marantz for most people who only need 11 channels.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

At least the price is good, better bang for the $ than Marantz for most people who only need 11 channels.

The new CX-A5200 price is $2700 retail. The CX-A5100 retail was $2500. And since the CX-A5100 is on closeout, local dealers should be able to get even lower prices.

With most rooms no larger than 18x20x10, I don't see the point of more than 7.1.4 speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It seems like the trend is to keep on adding more features and channels and parts.

I may be the ONLY one, but I'm glad at least Yamaha didn't add more channels and parts to the excellent CX-A5100/5200 Pre-pro.

I am hoping the next step is to get rid of a lot more internal parts like 99% of the legacy inputs/outputs.

 

[PENG]

It seems like the trend is to keep on adding more features and channels and parts.

I may be the ONLY one, but I'm glad at least Yamaha didn't add more channels and parts to the excellent CX-A5100/5200 Pre-pro.

I am hoping the next step is to get rid of a lot more internal parts like 99% of the legacy inputs/outputs.

They should get rid of the balanced I/O as well. People who need them are likely people who use pro gear.
Before they have the height concept 7.1 is enough, with height, I do think 7.1.4 is necessary but I agree 7.1.6 is unnecessary.

 

[KEW]

I was just catching up on this thread and while my timing is not the best, just wanted to make the point:
(For me at least) that ADTG's Denon pre-pro died at 8 years is not so much a travesty. The travesty is that "all the King's (Denon) horses and all of the King's men could not put it back together again".
Knowing the manufacturer was unwilling/cannot repair a $7500 pre-pro is a bitter pill to swallow and very difficult to understand! Most modern design uses modules and while old-timers often resent that you have to replace an entire module, it usually makes trouble-shooting/repair a much simpler task.
I am suspicious that there is more to the story.

Perhaps one of the EE's or guys who has been in the industry can offer some type of explanation of why it would be impossible/impractical to fix this unit?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They should get rid of the balanced I/O as well. People who need them are likely people who use pro gear.
Before they have the height concept 7.1 is enough, with height, I do think 7.1.4 is necessary but I agree 7.1.6 is unnecessary.

Actually I think audiophiles are the ones buying Pre-pros and Amps. And most audiophile amps have XLR (Monolith 200x7, Outlaw, ATI, etc).

So I think they should do delete RCA outputs like the Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston Pre-pros.

I think even 16Ch is okay as long as they delete 99% of legacy I/O like the Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was just catching up on this thread and while my timing is not the best, just wanted to make the point:
(For me at least) that ADTG's Denon pre-pro died at 8 years is not so much a travesty. The travesty is that "all the King's (Denon) horses and all of the King's men could not put it back together again".
Knowing the manufacturer was unwilling/cannot repair a $7500 pre-pro is a bitter pill to swallow and very difficult to understand! Most modern design uses modules and while old-timers often resent that you have to replace an entire module, it usually makes trouble-shooting/repair a much simpler task.
I am suspicious that there is more to the story.

Perhaps one of the EE's or guys who has been in the industry can offer some type of explanation of why it would be impossible/impractical to fix this unit?

According to the Denon Repair Center, they replaced the "Audio Video Board", which they said cost about $1,000.

But that did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem (assuming they did replace the "Audio Video Board").

Thank goodness, Best Buy gave me a full credit for the $1,000.

The problem with the AVP-A1 is that it has like 20 circuit boards (okay I didn't really count ),but it seemed like there were 20 circuit circuit boards when I took it all apart (after I totally gave up and it had zero volume output and HDMI board no longer worked also).

It was a messy jungle inside the chassis.

With something like the Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston, there are very few boards/modules.

If it were built like a clean full Tower PC where there's only 1 main MB and the rest are modules/cards with plenty of room inside the chassis, I bet it would be a lot easier to diagnose the problem and replace that faulty MB or one of the modules.

BTW, Grassy said he was going to send his dead AVP-A1 for repair also. Will see if the techs are able to fix his AVP-A1.

 

[Bookmark]

I use the XLRs on the Yammy and Nad. Does it make a difference, probably not, the length is too short to require it. But I like the satisfactory click and the connector is nicer.

The problem with XLRs is the size, you certainly could not fit as many as the legacy connectors. I would prefer to keep a few RCA, Optical and Coaxial for the other equipment that do not have the XLRs. Composite, SVideo and Component could probably could be left off from now, or leave just one for installers, like they used to do with Rs322.

What might be nice in the future would a Display Port or two, instead of nothing but Hdmi.

You could remove the Pre-Ins, but they are nice to have for the weirder multi box setups like mine. Although to really get this sorted then the Audio needs to be simultaneously passed through the Hdmi outputs untouched as an option instead of dropping to stereo.

 

[PENG]

Actually I think audiophiles are the ones buying Pre-pros and Amps. And most audiophile amps have XLR (Monolith 200x7, Outlaw, ATI, etc).

So I think they should do delete RCA outputs like the Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston Pre-pros.

I think even 16Ch is okay as long as they delete 99% of legacy I/O like the Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston.

Good point, delete RCAs then. I am for it because of the principle the simpler the better unless the complexity is justified. Having both types of connectors cannot be easily justified. If my Marantz prepro did not come with RCAs, I would have been forced to use balanced, and that's not a problem at all.

 

[PENG]

I was just catching up on this thread and while my timing is not the best, just wanted to make the point:
(For me at least) that ADTG's Denon pre-pro died at 8 years is not so much a travesty. The travesty is that "all the King's (Denon) horses and all of the King's men could not put it back together again".
Knowing the manufacturer was unwilling/cannot repair a $7500 pre-pro is a bitter pill to swallow and very difficult to understand! Most modern design uses modules and while old-timers often resent that you have to replace an entire module, it usually makes trouble-shooting/repair a much simpler task.
I am suspicious that there is more to the story.

Perhaps one of the EE's or guys who has been in the industry can offer some type of explanation of why it would be impossible/impractical to fix this unit?

It is always possible to repair something unless there are too costly to justify the repair, or there are too many components physically destroyed (typically by heat or arc burn). In his case, they did replace one board so it wasn't that they didn't try. I assume ADTG chose not to send it back the second time with a loud complaint to Denon's upper management. It could have been just something got loose during shipping after the board replacement. I cannot imagine Denon would charge $1,000 without even bench testing the unit before they shipped it out. Let alone a $7500 AVP, if I had such trouble with my $3000 AV8801 I would not stop until I get to their management and get a satisfactory answer.

@ADTG, I don't know how to contact Grassy but could you please let him know (in case he doesn't),some guys had troubles with the AVP after the board upgrade and the service center could not fix his/their issues but apparently the PanurgyOEM.com guys in NJ got their job done. To save time, he probably should try to insist on sending the Panurgy and bypass the other local centers.

One user seemed to have the worse nightware, he had it out of service for 5-6 months (less than a month it seemed once it got to Panurgy).

See post#25623
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1006957-official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread-855.html

Post#25861
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1006957-official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread-863.html

I did a quick browse on that AVS thread to see if the AVP had a lot of reported failures. It certainly was not the case based on that 903 page thread that is still active.

I think we have to wait for Grassy's report to be more conclusive.

 

[Roen]

Doesn’t seem to be a significant difference between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200. Same HDMI 2.0 and number of channels (11). The CX5200 gets AI Surround and a newer DAC, but both DAC have the same Dynamic Range and THD.

CX-A5100: ESS Sabre ES9016 DAC (32-bit, 8-channel, 124dB dynamic range (DNR),and -110dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N)

CX-A5200: ESS Sabre ES9026 DAC (32-bit, 8-channel, 124dB dynamic range (DNR),and -110dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N)
Public Announcement - August 27

Availability (shipping):
CX-A5200 - October 2018
MX-A5200 - December 2018

"The ES9028PRO and ES9026PRO are pin-compatible upgrades for ESS leadership products—the ES9018S and ES9016S – and feature 129 dB and 124 dB dynamic range (DNR), and -120 dB and -110 dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N). New features include: eight preset filters, full-scale auto-gain calibration, programmable volume ramp-rate, total harmonic distortion (THD) compensation, programmable soft-start time, improved DPLL
lock range, additional programmable GPIOs,"

From the product brief.

 

[lovinthehd]

"The ES9028PRO and ES9026PRO are pin-compatible upgrades for ESS leadership products—the ES9018S and ES9016S – and feature 129 dB and 124 dB dynamic range (DNR), and -120 dB and -110 dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N). New features include: eight preset filters, full-scale auto-gain calibration, programmable volume ramp-rate, total harmonic distortion (THD) compensation, programmable soft-start time, improved DPLL
lock range, additional programmable GPIOs,"

From the product brief.

That confirms ADTG's info as to the 9026 spec....

 

[PENG]

That confirms ADTG's info as to the 9026 spec....

I know that for you it is a moot point, as DAC chips are not the bottleneck, still Yamaha seems so cost conscious to not use the flagships ES9018/28/38, for their kind of volume purchase, it likely would have cost them less than a dollar more a piece!! Same shame on D&M, still using the AK4458 in their flagship SR8012, and only put the AK4490 in the AVR-X8500H and the AV8805. So please treasure your 4520 flagship that has the flagship TI DAC chip 1795 (not counting the old but top 1792).

 

[everettT]

If pioneer can use the flagship chips, everyone can. IIRC the latest from the SCLX 701(prev gen) and up started with the 9016s.

 

[PENG]

If pioneer can use the flagship chips, everyone can. IIRC the latest from the SCLX 701(prev gen) and up started with the 9016s.

ESS flagships are the 90X8, not 6.

 

[lovinthehd]

I know that for you it is a moot point, as DAC chips are not the bottleneck, still Yamaha seems so cost conscious to not use the flagships ES9018/28/38, for their kind of volume purchase, it likely would have cost them less than a dollar more a piece!! Same shame on D&M, still using the AK4458 in their flagship SR8012, and only put the AK4490 in the AVR-X8500H and the AV8805. So please treasure your 4520 flagship that has the flagship TI DAC chip 1795 (not counting the old but top 1792).

I was just wondering what his point was I'd agree that this is bean counting that makes little sense but then maybe they need to justify their multiple models/price point philosophy? According to many in the 2ch world my DAC is woefully inadequate compared to some of the schiit out there LOL.

 

[PENG]

I was just wondering what his point was I'd agree that this is bean counting that makes little sense but then maybe they need to justify their multiple models/price point philosophy? According to many in the 2ch world my DAC is woefully inadequate compared to some of the schiit out there LOL.

I have seen a few service manuals so I know the DAC chip is not the bottleneck. Still, they put even lower end (relatively speaking) DAC ES9010 for the USB and the PCM5101 for the optical and coaxial inputs in the beloved A-S801 integrated. That's worse than the scheme they used for the RX-A2060 and A3060, how come?? May be they know people like you and I can't tell the difference by ears anyway. Most people, Dr. Rich for sure, would assume integrated got better treatment but apparently not always.

 

[ellisr63]

Exactly... I see no reason at all to upgrade to it. If they would have added Dirac, AURO3D, or went retro style like they have on their integrated amps which look like the 1970s silver integrated, and receivers...I would be buying one!

Doesn’t seem to be a significant difference between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200. Same HDMI 2.0 and number of channels (11). The CX5200 gets AI Surround and a newer DAC, but both DAC have the same Dynamic Range and THD.

CX-A5100: ESS Sabre ES9016 DAC (32-bit, 8-channel, 124dB dynamic range (DNR),and -110dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N)

CX-A5200: ESS Sabre ES9026 DAC (32-bit, 8-channel, 124dB dynamic range (DNR),and -110dB total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N)
Public Announcement - August 27

Availability (shipping):
CX-A5200 - October 2018
MX-A5200 - December 2018

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

[gene]

Guys;

I'm sorry to report my CX-A5200 review is going to be delayed due to a tech issue I found on the product. When I was pulling measurements on my CX-A5200, I noted unusually high distortion coming from the main front channel XLR's. This higher distortion was only seen on the front XLR's and no other connections balanced or unbalanced. I also confirmed this is a new problem to the Yamaha pre/pros as the CX-A5000 and CX-A5100 did not exhibit this behavior.

Yamaha confirmed my findings and claim to be working on "countermeasures". They believe it is localized to the volume control circuitry.

Attached is a graph of the XLR & unbal from main L/R outputs Frequency Response vs Distortion for the CX-A5100 vs the CX-A5200 so you can see the differences.

As you can see for the same output level the CX-A5200 XLR distortion is 20dB higher than the CX-A5100.

If we look closer of distortion vs output voltage of the CX-A5200 comparing XLR front L/R vs the rest of the channels, you can see how it rises with increased voltage.

The reality is, most power amps reach full power at < 3Vrms so even with these problematic outputs, the distortion is still probably below audibility. However, it's far from state of the art and is something Yamaha should be able to fix and strive to do better IMO.

I will be waiting for this to be resolved before doing a formal review and yanking out the perfectly working CX-A5100 from my rack. I appreciate everyone's patience.

 

[Phase 2]

Thanks Gene, this is why your website rules. Most of us would never know of those kind of issue's.