Is the Emotiva UPA-7 a good amp to purchase?

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Wow so much different than what happens when I use external amps, especially the things amps don't do. I've not had a similar experience even using separate pre amp and amp nor with a very similar avr as you have, the Onkyo HTRC370 (or a few other avrs, none of which I any longer use external amps with). I suspect part of it is buyer excitement but glad you're enjoying it. Curious, what volume do you listen and at what distance?
I know your not being critical and I respect your knowledge but what exactly in your experience are amps supposed to do? I don't know as I mentioned when I started this post in the beginning Im a total noob when it comes to this part of audio this is my first amp. So I'm interested in your take on what amps are supposed to do and what exactly you get out of your experiences. That way I can expand my knowledge and gain different perspectives. As for the other comments in your post I play around a lot but really I'm more serious then I let on. And I do a pretty good job not being emotional or getting over excited especially in my job psych nursing we deal with some very violent patients on my unit and you learn to not get emotional a trait I think I do pretty well with when I can get home. All I can tell you is that I have several reference movies I know by heart I view them over and over again so I can look for any differences in the sound. And all I can say is when I added in the amp they're was a marked improvement in the sound. One thing I will comment on in your post I think you think I'm implying that the improvements I felt I observed ( I'll say that ) although I know I heard improvements were coming from the amp. That's not it at all. I don't think amps do all the things I mentioned above even being a noob that's not something I believe. Why I think the sound improved is because of the added power they gave to the front 3 speakers and the strain it took off the surrounds when the av reciever only had to run the surrounds. I've heard over and over again that amps can help in this area in this way. They help improve dynamics by helping the reciever from what I understand and by allowing the speakers to operate to better potential by giving more power to them. I have 3 SVS prime towers which from reviews here and in other publications they've measured to not be as easy a drive with its nominal 8 ohms impedance as SVS states they are. In the article reviewing them here it clearly states running a power amp or better reciever is necessary to bring out they're best. I sit 12 feet back from them. My room is open with 8500 feet of cubic air My surrounds are 13 feet from my position my backs are 5 feet back all surrounds are elevated over 4 feet above me tilted to the listening position. They're manual lists them as a nominal 6 ohm drive. Only 85db efficient. Personally I don't believe the amp caused some magical change in my sound. I think my reciever was being taxed to drive them all. It's rated 135 watts × 2 8ohms driven I'm sure I'm not getting anywhere near that all channeld driven. I just think the amp driving the fronts freeing some off the strain off the reciever helped with the changes I noticed. My volume level to get me close to the place I could really be immersed with the onkyo nr 809 was at 82 its reference level. And I felt tempted to push it more but never did. The sounded just sounded too thin and a little dull a little less lively then I was looking for. Once I registered to my reference movies after hearing them once without the amp I noticed that was very much improved. Also I noticed I didn't have to push the reciever up to 82 reference before I could really enjoy the sound things sounded really good at 72 even better at the reference at 82 because it didn't get much louder it just got much clearer. That's my take on what I experienced. Although I will say this if it's all in my head so what? If it gave me some enjoyment after coming home from dealing with violent aggressive patients with heartbreaking stories I'll take it whatever helps me decompress. I'll worry about getting to your knowledge level and precise measurements etc etc as I grow into this field. That's my take. But although I'm tired from a rough shift at work I'm always eager to learn please help me understand what amps are supposed to do. And how exactly you can measure and have measured this so I can learn how to grow and do these things as well my friend.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I love the original Pacific Rim movie for comparing changes. :) I cleared out a space for a future amp today in my theater room / man cave. It will be easy to justify as a Christmas present to myself. My 5.1 going to 5.1.4 will benefit from the front 3 amped up. :) Outlaw or Monolith or Emotiva. Lots of choices for 3 or 5 ch amps. :)
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I love the original Pacific Rim movie for comparing changes. :) I cleared out a space for a future amp today in my theater room / man cave. It will be easy to justify as a Christmas present to myself. My 5.1 going to 5.1.4 will benefit from the front 3 amped up. :) Outlaw or Monolith or Emotiva. Lots of choices for 3 or 5 ch amps. :)
I looove that movie Godzilla on steroids! Lol
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I know your not being critical and I respect your knowledge but what exactly in your experience are amps supposed to do? I don't know as I mentioned when I started this post in the beginning Im a total noob when it comes to this part of audio this is my first amp. So I'm interested in your take on what amps are supposed to do and what exactly you get out of your experiences. That way I can expand my knowledge and gain different perspectives. As for the other comments in your post I play around a lot but really I'm more serious then I let on. And I do a pretty good job not being emotional or getting over excited especially in my job psych nursing we deal with some very violent patients on my unit and you learn to not get emotional a trait I think I do pretty well with when I can get home. All I can tell you is that I have several reference movies I know by heart I view them over and over again so I can look for any differences in the sound. And all I can say is when I added in the amp they're was a marked improvement in the sound. One thing I will comment on in your post I think you think I'm implying that the improvements I felt I observed ( I'll say that ) although I know I heard improvements were coming from the amp. That's not it at all. I don't think amps do all the things I mentioned above even being a noob that's not something I believe. Why I think the sound improved is because of the added power they gave to the front 3 speakers and the strain it took off the surrounds when the av reciever only had to run the surrounds. I've heard over and over again that amps can help in this area in this way. They help improve dynamics by helping the reciever from what I understand and by allowing the speakers to operate to better potential by giving more power to them. I have 3 SVS prime towers which from reviews here and in other publications they've measured to not be as easy a drive with its nominal 8 ohms impedance as SVS states they are. In the article reviewing them here it clearly states running a power amp or better reciever is necessary to bring out they're best. I sit 12 feet back from them. My room is open with 8500 feet of cubic air My surrounds are 13 feet from my position my backs are 5 feet back all surrounds are elevated over 4 feet above me tilted to the listening position. They're manual lists them as a nominal 6 ohm drive. Only 85db efficient. Personally I don't believe the amp caused some magical change in my sound. I think my reciever was being taxed to drive them all. It's rated 135 watts × 2 8ohms driven I'm sure I'm not getting anywhere near that all channeld driven. I just think the amp driving the fronts freeing some off the strain off the reciever helped with the changes I noticed. My volume level to get me close to the place I could really be immersed with the onkyo nr 809 was at 82 its reference level. And I felt tempted to push it more but never did. The sounded just sounded too thin and a little dull a little less lively then I was looking for. Once I registered to my reference movies after hearing them once without the amp I noticed that was very much improved. Also I noticed I didn't have to push the reciever up to 82 reference before I could really enjoy the sound things sounded really good at 72 even better at the reference at 82 because it didn't get much louder it just got much clearer. That's my take on what I experienced. Although I will say this if it's all in my head so what? If it gave me some enjoyment after coming home from dealing with violent aggressive patients with heartbreaking stories I'll take it whatever helps me decompress. I'll worry about getting to your knowledge level and precise measurements etc etc as I grow into this field. That's my take. But although I'm tired from a rough shift at work I'm always eager to learn please help me understand what amps are supposed to do. And how exactly you can measure and have measured this so I can learn how to grow and do these things as well my friend.
First, paragraphs! :)

This version is more along the lines of my experience than the post I was commenting on :) Yes, amps offer increased spl/headroom, particularly for lower sensitivity speakers and avr amps aren't famous for driving low impedance loads as well as some stand alone amps either. Imaging was one of the comments that didn't make sense earlier for example, or specific bumps to parts of the frequency response; volume differences sometimes can explain such, tho. Generally when I use a more powerful amp, or relieving an avr's amps alone at reference levels, my experiences are more in alignment with yours. Not trying at all to harsh your mellow at all, just trying to understand. There is often much hyperbole around increased amp power or sometimes mere changes in amplifier. Have fun with the new gear, especially when you add the two PC4000s for that huge volume :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Also I noticed I didn't have to push the reciever up to 82 reference before I could really enjoy the sound things sounded really good at 72 even better at the reference at 82 because it didn't get much louder it just got much clearer. That's my take on what I experienced. Although I will say this if it's all in my head so what? If it gave me some enjoyment after coming home from dealing with violent aggressive patients with heartbreaking stories I'll take it whatever helps me decompress. I'll worry about getting to your knowledge level and precise measurements etc etc as I grow into this field. That's my take. But although I'm tired from a rough shift at work I'm always eager to learn please help me understand what amps are supposed to do. And how exactly you can measure and have measured this so I can learn how to grow and do these things as well my friend.
That's a very thoughtful post. Since you seem open minded to opinions, while waiting for HD to response, I'll offer my 2 cents.

HD did say: "I suspect part of it is buyer excitement but glad you're enjoying it. Curious, what volume do you listen and at what distance? "

That's fair comment, because lots of people, including me, have experienced the effect of "initial excitement" and/or expectation bias. Years ago when I added my first 200 W Adcom amp, I thought there was significant improvements. Years later, after several more additions, including class A differential preamps, and some $2-$4K power amps, I have learnt that when driven well below their design limits, preamp/amps don't really sound all that different. I am not saying they sound the same, but not what I would call night and day kind of difference.

Your answers to HD's questions about the volume and distance are revealing. I took a quick look using the peak spl online calculator and found that using those SVS Prime tower sitting 12-13 ft, you do need pretty much all of the available power from the 40 lbs TX-NR809. However, based on the S&V bench test results on the TX-NR807 (predecessor of the 809),and the Audioholics bench test results on the UPA-7, the two units are actually comparable in terms of power output into 4 ohms. Their rated dynamic power rating are also comparable, within 1 dB or 2 at the most, in favor of the UPA I would say.. What the UPA brings to the table are mostly the ability to drive 4 ohm loads, all 7 channels driven ability to higher levels for a longer period of time, allow the AVRs to run cooler, improved reliability, as well as a little more dynamic headroom. I say a little, may be just 1-2 dB, because the Onkyo 809 itself also seem to have very good dynamic rating.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-upa-7/upa7-measurements

The question remains, why some heard so much more of a difference than others? In your particular case, one thing that jumps out is the level. It is a well know fact that for a fair comparison, it needs to be matched matched to within as little as 0.5 dB, and in general people would perceive the louder one as better.

There are numerous articles related to the need to level match topics, including Dr. Floyd Toole's, below is one that I have never read before as I rarely read anything written by a "mastering engineer".:D

http://productionadvice.co.uk/level-matching/

The UPA-7's gain is claimed to be 32dB, Gene apparently didn't think it was that high but still he said in his review: "so its gain is about 3dB hotter than typical" For details, please refer to the audioholics.com review linked above.

That could mean if you had set the volume to 82 without the UPA, you can now set it to 79 and still listen to the same level. That 3 dB difference would otherwise give you the impression that with the UPA in the loop, the sound is fuller, punchier, clearer etc.. That's just in terms of the average effect, for contents that have lots of higher level dynamics, the UPA might get you another dB or 2 advantage, that combine with some expectation bias effect, may just amount to the night and day kind of difference that you are hearing. It's all good, nothing wrong at all, just sit back and enjoy!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I looove that movie Godzilla on steroids! Lol
First, paragraphs! :)

This version is more along the lines of my experience than the post I was commenting on :) Yes, amps offer increased spl/headroom, particularly for lower sensitivity speakers and avr amps aren't famous for driving low impedance loads as well as some stand alone amps either. Imaging was one of the comments that didn't make sense earlier for example, or specific bumps to parts of the frequency response; volume differences sometimes can explain such, tho. Generally when I use a more powerful amp, or relieving an avr's amps alone at reference levels, my experiences are more in alignment with yours. Not trying at all to harsh your mellow at all, just trying to understand. There is often much hyperbole around increased amp power or sometimes mere changes in amplifier. Have fun with the new gear, especially when you add the two PC4000s for that huge volume :)
Yeah I think I was trying to say the same thing in both posts being a noob with amps I really just struggle to know how to put things into words that's why I value your guys feedback so highly appreciate the time and response you gave back like I've said before any input you guys give helps out a lot
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
That's a very thoughtful post. Since you seem open minded to opinions, while waiting for HD to response, I'll offer my 2 cents.

HD did say: "I suspect part of it is buyer excitement but glad you're enjoying it. Curious, what volume do you listen and at what distance? "

That's fair comment, because lots of people, including me, have experienced the effect of "initial excitement" and/or expectation bias. Years ago when I added my first 200 W Adcom amp, I thought there was significant improvements. Years later, after several more additions, including class A differential preamps, and some $2-$4K power amps, I have learnt that when driven well below their design limits, preamp/amps don't really sound all that different. I am not saying they sound the same, but not what I would call night and day kind of difference.

Your answers to HD's questions about the volume and distance are revealing. I took a quick look using the peak spl online calculator and found that using those SVS Prime tower sitting 12-13 ft, you do need pretty much all of the available power from the 40 lbs TX-NR809. However, based on the S&V bench test results on the TX-NR807 (predecessor of the 809),and the Audioholics bench test results on the UPA-7, the two units are actually comparable in terms of power output into 4 ohms. Their rated dynamic power rating are also comparable, within 1 dB or 2 at the most, in favor of the UPA I would say.. What the UPA brings to the table are mostly the ability to drive 4 ohm loads, all 7 channels driven ability to higher levels for a longer period of time, allow the AVRs to run cooler, improved reliability, as well as a little more dynamic headroom. I say a little, may be just 1-2 dB, because the Onkyo 809 itself also seem to have very good dynamic rating.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-upa-7/upa7-measurements

The question remains, why some heard so much more of a difference than others? In your particular case, one thing that jumps out is the level. It is a well know fact that for a fair comparison, it needs to be matched matched to within as little as 0.5 dB, and in general people would perceive the louder one as better.

There are numerous articles related to the need to level match topics, including Dr. Floyd Toole's, below is one that I have never read before as I rarely read anything written by a "mastering engineer".:D

http://productionadvice.co.uk/level-matching/

The UPA-7's gain is claimed to be 32dB, Gene apparently didn't think it was that high but still he said in his review: "so its gain is about 3dB hotter than typical" For details, please refer to the audioholics.com review linked above.

That could mean if you had set the volume to 82 without the UPA, you can now set it to 79 and still listen to the same level. That 3 dB difference would otherwise give you the impression that with the UPA in the loop, the sound is fuller, punchier, clearer etc.. That's just in terms of the average effect, for contents that have lots of higher level dynamics, the UPA might get you another dB or 2 advantage, that combine with some expectation bias effect, may just amount to the night and day kind of difference that you are hearing. It's all good, nothing wrong at all, just sit back and enjoy!
Yeah I think your right PENG that makes a lottof sense. And some of your points are really really good knowledge man I need to find out how and where you guys learn all this technical stuff. Or like drunkpenguin I'll just pay you! Lol. I'm thinking also what may help is I'm only using 3 channels of the UPA 7 for the front 3 towers which Emotiva told me would give me more power than what Id get driving all 7 channels. And now the avr is only driving 4 that extra headroom might be helping dynamics and combined with what your explaining with the gain situation may be why I'm enjoying the sound a little more. Anyways I really appreciate all the feedback and as you said let's just sit back let at rip and enjoy. Thank you my friends!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
That's a very thoughtful post. Since you seem open minded to opinions, while waiting for HD to response, I'll offer my 2 cents.

HD did say: "I suspect part of it is buyer excitement but glad you're enjoying it. Curious, what volume do you listen and at what distance? "

That's fair comment, because lots of people, including me, have experienced the effect of "initial excitement" and/or expectation bias. Years ago when I added my first 200 W Adcom amp, I thought there was significant improvements. Years later, after several more additions, including class A differential preamps, and some $2-$4K power amps, I have learnt that when driven well below their design limits, preamp/amps don't really sound all that different. I am not saying they sound the same, but not what I would call night and day kind of difference.

Your answers to HD's questions about the volume and distance are revealing. I took a quick look using the peak spl online calculator and found that using those SVS Prime tower sitting 12-13 ft, you do need pretty much all of the available power from the 40 lbs TX-NR809. However, based on the S&V bench test results on the TX-NR807 (predecessor of the 809),and the Audioholics bench test results on the UPA-7, the two units are actually comparable in terms of power output into 4 ohms. Their rated dynamic power rating are also comparable, within 1 dB or 2 at the most, in favor of the UPA I would say.. What the UPA brings to the table are mostly the ability to drive 4 ohm loads, all 7 channels driven ability to higher levels for a longer period of time, allow the AVRs to run cooler, improved reliability, as well as a little more dynamic headroom. I say a little, may be just 1-2 dB, because the Onkyo 809 itself also seem to have very good dynamic rating.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-upa-7/upa7-measurements

The question remains, why some heard so much more of a difference than others? In your particular case, one thing that jumps out is the level. It is a well know fact that for a fair comparison, it needs to be matched matched to within as little as 0.5 dB, and in general people would perceive the louder one as better.

There are numerous articles related to the need to level match topics, including Dr. Floyd Toole's, below is one that I have never read before as I rarely read anything written by a "mastering engineer".:D

http://productionadvice.co.uk/level-matching/

The UPA-7's gain is claimed to be 32dB, Gene apparently didn't think it was that high but still he said in his review: "so its gain is about 3dB hotter than typical" For details, please refer to the audioholics.com review linked above.

That could mean if you had set the volume to 82 without the UPA, you can now set it to 79 and still listen to the same level. That 3 dB difference would otherwise give you the impression that with the UPA in the loop, the sound is fuller, punchier, clearer etc.. That's just in terms of the average effect, for contents that have lots of higher level dynamics, the UPA might get you another dB or 2 advantage, that combine with some expectation bias effect, may just amount to the night and day kind of difference that you are hearing. It's all good, nothing wrong at all, just sit back and enjoy!
One other thing PENG after I hooked up the amp I ran on the avr the channel levels setting to make sure all the speakers were connected. When I did this the pink or white noise I don't know what you call it exactly was I could swear louder then before on my front 3 towers even though they were still set where audyssey put them at -1 -1.5 -1. This may be the gain thing you were explaining it makes a heck of a lottof sense if it is just popped I'm my head right now anyways gotta get back to work appreciate ya!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
One other thing PENG after I hooked up the amp I ran on the avr the channel levels setting to make sure all the speakers were connected. When I did this the pink or white noise I don't know what you call it exactly was I could swear louder then before on my front 3 towers even though they were still set where audyssey put them at -1 -1.5 -1. This may be the gain thing you were explaining it makes a heck of a lottof sense if it is just popped I'm my head right now anyways gotta get back to work appreciate ya!
You didn't re-run Audyssey after adding the external amp? You need to....

ps this is due to a difference in gain structure with the external amp vs internal amp.
 
Last edited:
D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
He's been to busy drooling over there. No time for calibration.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
One other thing PENG after I hooked up the amp I ran on the avr the channel levels setting to make sure all the speakers were connected. When I did this the pink or white noise I don't know what you call it exactly was I could swear louder then before on my front 3 towers even though they were still set where audyssey put them at -1 -1.5 -1. This may be the gain thing you were explaining it makes a heck of a lottof sense if it is just popped I'm my head right now anyways gotta get back to work appreciate ya!
I assumed you did re-run Audyssey to level things out. If not, you should do it, and without changing anything else you should be getting more output from the subwoofer and the surround channels.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I assumed you did re-run Audyssey to level things out. If not, you should do it, and without changing anything else you should be getting more output from the subwoofer and the surround channels.
Well sheeeaaat guys there's the noob in me coming out I never thought I'd have to rerun Audyssey. That makes sense with the difference in gain. See that's why I come to you guys to learn high level stuff like that new amp means rerun Audyssey! They don't teach you that in noob school. Siiiigggghhhhhhh I hate running audyssey I'm too lazy it's just what drunkpenguin said Id rather drool then calibrate! :p Damn there goes half a day cuz I'll wanna obsess and listen to everything all over again. Siiiiiigghhh okaaay I'll doo iiiitttttt
 
D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
You can skip it... But Youll be publicly shamed and branded a loser for the rest of yer days!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I wouldn’t necessarily rerun Audyssey. The EQ probably wouldn’t change since the fr isn’t likely different enough. But absolutely @danzilla get an spl meter. Every av nerd needs one in the tool box. That way you can at least level match you’re stuff, without running Audyssey. I’m not an advocate of spl meter apps for phones but they’re better than setting levels by ear, and you still should get a real one.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I wouldn’t necessarily rerun Audyssey. The EQ probably wouldn’t change since the fr isn’t likely different enough. But absolutely @danzilla get an spl meter. Every av nerd needs one in the tool box. That way you can at least level match you’re stuff, without running Audyssey. I’m not an advocate of spl meter apps for phones but they’re better than setting levels by ear, and you still should get a real one.
Gotcha I'll for sure pick one up then bug you on how to use it!:) Or just pay PENG to teach me like Drunkpenguin does :eek:
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I always enjoy posts like yours. It is great to hear someone's excitement and thrill with new gear.
However, I do agree that the reality is there is probably little or no actual difference (once you level match).
A good salesman can let you hear a system then talk up something like $300 power cable and if you don't know enough about electricity and they do a good enough job of sharing their "excitement" of what a good product it is and what you are going to hear, it is easy for us people to hear exactly what he said we would.

The thing is our perceptions are so easily altered that you are liable to experience a wide array despite the actual sound being the same.

Some of my favorite examples/analogies are:
When I was a kid and got PF Flyers (brand/style of tennis shoes if you are young),I really could run faster and jump higher, just like the commercials said I would.
I have caught myself believing that cleaning the dust out of my old vintage amp made it sound better (it wasn't that bad). I realized that didn't really make sense, but the fact that I had invested ~45 minutes caring for my amp and felt good about it, predispositioned me to appreciate the sound.
A song sounds better if I have been wanting/anticipating hearing it on my way home.
My system almost always sounds better first thing in the morning (when I have a "fresh" set of ears)!
Assuming they kiss the same, kissing an attractive (however you want to define attractive) woman is more enjoyable than an unattractive woman. This is probably the most obvious example of how easily swayed our perceptions our!
Is it unreasonable to expect that sexy $5000 Macintosh amp with the big blue meters to sound better than our meager AVR (even if it does not)?
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top