The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What are the ceiling speakers in this 5.1.4 ?

The RBH VM-815 (with rear enclosure FB-C8), MSRP $982/pair.

Woofer: 8" Aluminum Cone
Tweeter: 1" Aluminum Dome
Frequency Response:50Hz-20kHz (±3dB)
Sensitivity: 88dB (2.83V @ 1 Meter)
Recommended Power: 15-120 Watts

https://rbhsound.com/vm815l.php
https://rbhsound.com/fbc8.php

 

[Auditor55]

Nothing was changing, speakers,amp, volume, other than back stepping the film 5 mins and switching the Processor from DSU to Neural X and vice versa. It's not scientific or probably optimal, just relatively quick.

The thing is my room, speaker choices and placement versus yours probably have a lot more to do with whether you or I notice any great difference over 5.1/7.1, heights, overheads or even if DSU or Neural X actually changes anything. My room I know is not a perfect setup and the calibrations probably need good deal more refinement, but it does for now.

Like all bad zealots and recent converts I believe I am hearing things. I will say my fiddling about with placement and numbers has, I believe had real improvements for actual Dolby Atmos/Dts:X films. The upmixers may well just be an illusion and bad memory from when I last watched a particular film, which could be well over a year or two. Also attempting to quickly change upmixers is awfully like non double blind test, ie prone to subjective bias. I hear it because I want to.

William thinks Neural X is more aggressive, ADTG thinks DSU just does the better overall job and I am possibly in the pick Dolby for Dolby and Dts for Dts camp. Perhaps none of us are right and Auro is the best. The more other people try the more opinions, perhaps the better all of us are informed. A DBT with a larger group might help here.

DTSU is more aggressive and that's not good for music.

 

[andyblackcat]

With the 4 it just kind of creates a ceiling for certain effects like the bombing of District 13 in Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 1.

May want to listen again with LCR side/rear surrounds disconnected or muted depending on how its set-up. You may be in for small disappointment? Check each of the speakers or channels playing discretely afterwards.

 

[Bookmark]

@Auditor55 The consensus was, I thought, that Auro3D, then DSU and lastly Neural X, if you are using it to process stereo. That said, for stereo it is probably best not to use any. I have tried up mixing stereo and for this I would pick DSU, but sometimes it makes a complete mess. However I am purely referring to up mixing existing Dolby/Dts formats below Atmos/Dts:X.

The speakers have all been level matched and distance corrected manually after the YPAO setup. I can get close enough to the heights to tell they are working correctly. If I select Straight versus DSU/Neural X then this cuts off all the up mixing from these discs and does not use the height. I know how this sounds, it's been the setup for the last few years. If it made no difference I would just leave on Straight and save the electricity on the Marantz.

I don't think I have suggested previously that up mixing is comparable to actual Atmos/Dts:X mixes. If I have implied this, then I apologize and retract that. I have said I don't think that purchasing older movies in previous audio formats suddenly released in "Atmos/Dts:X" is worth a purchase, for example Harry Potter. I haven't checked these up mixed, but they sound fine as Dts HDMA mixes.

I think the experience of pseudo Atmos/Dts:X 4K UHD releases and up mixing existing Dolby/Dts dvd/blurays is likely fairly similar. In the future some of the older (last couple of decades) films will get the proper treatment and this may result in possibly good approximations of an original Atmos/Dts:X mix. I noticed yesterday John Carpenter's Escape from New York, The Fog and They Live are all getting new 4K prints. Since most of these were from the 80s and 90s, whether the audio has also been redone I don't currently know. I do know at £30 a disc each it is not likely to replace my Dvds of these.

Last night as part of the film rotations, I am working my way through the entire collection, I watched the Phantom Menace. The print was the bluray release with Dts HDMA. I up mixed this with Neural X. The initial invasion of Nabu, the pod race and the final battle with light sabers, Gungans and spaceships seemed all nicely improved. Still doesn't make Anakin or Jar Jar Binks any more palatable. I will probably watch the other two tonight.

These are just my own opinions and as always YMMV.

PS, Bluray Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2 are actual Atmos mixes. Hunger Games is True HD and my Catching Fire is for some reason only Dolby. I was comparing the Mockingjay with 4 heights over previously no height just 7.1 setup.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What has been shocking me is how awesome DSU sounds for 2.0 CH AAC TV sources (Hulu’s Handmaid’s Tale, Castle Rock, and especially The First). I think DTSNXU is also impressive.

These TV series, especially The First, sound amazing with awesome center dialogue clarity and very good surround effects, even though they are in 2.0 CH AAC. That is truly shocking to me.

I am extremely impressed with DSU.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For good old stereo music, I think I still prefer 2CH, but DSU and DTSNXU make the music sound like 5.1 music to me.

It's been a while since I listened to SACD/DVDA, DTS CD's. But I sold them all for a reason - I never liked the way they sounded.

I don't know if I have changed, but now I find that DSU makes 2CH music sound FUN - a lot more fun than I can remember with SACD/DVDA/DTS CD.

The clarity of the vocals and surround effects of DSU/DTSNXU for 2CH music is impressive.

So overall, my impression so far is that DSU/DTSNXU is a huge technological "breakthrough". I might dare say more "impressive" and "enlightening" than DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, Atmos, and DTSX - so far. Taking a 2CH source and making them sound this good is astonishing to me.

Serendipity comes to mind.

 

[Bookmark]

Found another couple of articles. First reads a bit like a puff piece for Dts but it is still interesting
https://www.lifewire.com/dts-x-surround-sound-format-1847004
The second is doing as @andyblackcat suggested and disconnecting the base layer speakers to see what is going on with the up mixers. Interestingly they are suggesting, possibly because this was from a couple of years ago, Dts Neural X could only do Dts codecs and not Dolby
https://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Dolby/DTS/Surround_Sound/height-speakers/Dolby_Atmos/dtsx/Denon/KEF/Yamaha/Pioneer/Onkyo/Sony/avr/av-receiver/Surround_Sound/upmixed-dolby-surround-v-dtsneuralx/32382

Of note in the 2nd confirms @Auditor55 suspicion of Neural X being a bit more aggressive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I compared DS vs DTSNX with the season finale of "Castle Rock" in 2.0 CH AAC. They sounded very similar. Both sounded very good.

 

[Bookmark]

I tried the Top Gun, just all speakers, up mixed. It's a Dolby Dvd and could not really tell any difference or notice the plane panning other than what's normally there. I also tried the Guy Pearce Time Machine, ~24 min trip to the future. It's also a Dolby Dvd and this time I thought Neural X sounded fuller. I have also been watching Escape from New York, this is an old 90s release with a Dts mix but the film is from 1981 before any of this. It kind of works but it is very front heavy with little surround use beyond some helicopters early on. Also a lot of the gun/punch effects are a mess but this is true even without any up mixing.

I am liking either for the most part. No great preference. Attack of the Clones was improved too but I don't think as much as the Phantom Menace. The asteroid field and final battle were nice. Let's see how Revenge does.

 

[Auditor55]

@Auditor55 The consensus was, I thought, that Auro3D, then DSU and lastly Neural X, if you are using it to process stereo. That said, for stereo it is probably best not to use any. I have tried up mixing stereo and for this I would pick DSU, but sometimes it makes a complete mess. However I am purely referring to up mixing existing Dolby/Dts formats below Atmos/Dts:X.

The speakers have all been level matched and distance corrected manually after the YPAO setup. I can get close enough to the heights to tell they are working correctly. If I select Straight versus DSU/Neural X then this cuts off all the up mixing from these discs and does not use the height. I know how this sounds, it's been the setup for the last few years. If it made no difference I would just leave on Straight and save the electricity on the Marantz.

I don't think I have suggested previously that up mixing is comparable to actual Atmos/Dts:X mixes. If I have implied this, then I apologize and retract that. I have said I don't think that purchasing older movies in previous audio formats suddenly released in "Atmos/Dts:X" is worth a purchase, for example Harry Potter. I haven't checked these up mixed, but they sound fine as Dts HDMA mixes.

I think the experience of pseudo Atmos/Dts:X 4K UHD releases and up mixing existing Dolby/Dts dvd/blurays is likely fairly similar. In the future some of the older (last couple of decades) films will get the proper treatment and this may result in possibly good approximations of an original Atmos/Dts:X mix. I noticed yesterday John Carpenter's Escape from New York, The Fog and They Live are all getting new 4K prints. Since most of these were from the 80s and 90s, whether the audio has also been redone I don't currently know. I do know at £30 a disc each it is not likely to replace my Dvds of these.

Last night as part of the film rotations, I am working my way through the entire collection, I watched the Phantom Menace. The print was the bluray release with Dts HDMA. I up mixed this with Neural X. The initial invasion of Nabu, the pod race and the final battle with light sabers, Gungans and spaceships seemed all nicely improved. Still doesn't make Anakin or Jar Jar Binks any more palatable. I will probably watch the other two tonight.

These are just my own opinions and as always YMMV.

PS, Bluray Mockingjay Parts 1 and 2 are actual Atmos mixes. Hunger Games is True HD and my Catching Fire is for some reason only Dolby. I was comparing the Mockingjay with 4 heights over previously no height just 7.1 setup.

Auro upmixers on stereo is used to create a kind of ambiance of a music hall or concert feel. The other two are too matrix-see for lack of a better term. Auro 3d is more seemless.

 

[Bookmark]

The Yamaha has a number of venue type Dsp modes. However I can't say I am fond of any of them. It's mostly an improved convolution reverb, developed by Yamaha for synths and effects units. They recorded the impulse responses at a number of different well known locations such as Munich, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Vienna, Tokyo.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Auro upmixers on stereo is used to create a kind of ambiance of a music hall or concert feel. The other two are too matrix-see for lack of a better term. Auro 3d is more seemless.

I never liked that “Hall” or “Concert” ambience.

That’s why I usually prefer straight 2CH Stereo for music.

I’ve probably changed over the years. I remember hating that Multi-Channel Stereo effects years ago. I also didn’t like SACD, DVDA.

But I was testing out DSU and DTSNXU on my Yamaha the other day. The sound seems strong on all speakers. I didn’t mind it for casual listening. It was kind of fun. The salient thing was that the vocals were most prominent and strongest on the Center speaker, which was great.

Some people may not like the slight ambience of the Hall/Concert effect of Auro3D and prefer more prominent Center and Surround effects of DSU/DTSNXU.

So it all depends on what people prefer. If they prefer a more subtle Hall ambience effect, then they will prefer Auro3D.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Yamaha has a number of venue type Dsp modes. However I can't say I am fond of any of them. It's mostly an improved convolution reverb, developed by Yamaha for synths and effects units. They recorded the impulse responses at a number of different well known locations such as Munich, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Vienna, Tokyo.

I wish there were a way we could remove those DSP and just keep the ones we want.

For me, I would only want 3 modes: Straight, DS, and DTSNX.

 

[snakeeyes]

I never liked that “Hall” or “Concert” ambience.

That’s why I usually prefer straight 2CH Stereo for music.

I’ve probably changed over the years. I remember hating that Multi-Channel Stereo effects years ago. I also didn’t like SACD, DVDA.

But I was testing out DSU and DTSNXU on my Yamaha the other day. The sound seems strong on all speakers. I didn’t mind it for casual listening. It was kind of fun. The salient thing was that the vocals were most prominent and strongest on the Center speaker, which was great.

Some people may not like the slight ambience of the Hall/Concert effect of Auro3D and prefer more prominent Center and Surround effects of DSU/DTSNXU.

So it all depends on what people prefer. If they prefer a more subtle Hall ambience effect, then they will prefer Auro3D.

For DSU did you try music with center spread enabled? Gene mentioned it in his YouTube that it should be enabled when listening to music only.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For DSU did you try music with center spread enabled? Gene mentioned it in his YouTube that it should be enabled when listening to music only.

Yes I tried both Center Spread On and Off for music. Not sure which one I liked better. So I just kept Center Spread Off.

 

[andyblackcat]

I think the centre spread is not as good as the one that was on my Kenwood AVR that had an adjustable centre spread in three settings or was it four? The new one or what ever its called is prefixed at one setting so bit useless.

 

[Bookmark]

Yamaha has several adjustable parameters in the web interface. They are not particularly well described, although some are self evident. Centre spread On/Off is the only one you can set via the remote. The Yamaha App allows you a bit more control over the other Dsp programs with room size, etc.

It is a shame Marantz and I think Denon removed access to their web interface for them. Probably too many twiddlers causing support issue perhaps. However I think their two apps allow for a fair bit of control. Certainly the paid one has a nicer EQ editor. I wish Yamaha would do like wise.

I think Gene had said Centre spead should be Off for movies and On for stereo music. I believe without this it is the thought is that music can tend to collapse into the middle and losing the instrument placements.

 

[Bookmark]

In case anyone is wondering, the Dimension setting in Sur_Decode is normally 0. I was twiddling. Literally cannot tell if it makes any difference.

 

[Auditor55]

I never liked that “Hall” or “Concert” ambience.

That’s why I usually prefer straight 2CH Stereo for music.

I’ve probably changed over the years. I remember hating that Multi-Channel Stereo effects years ago. I also didn’t like SACD, DVDA.

But I was testing out DSU and DTSNXU on my Yamaha the other day. The sound seems strong on all speakers. I didn’t mind it for casual listening. It was kind of fun. The salient thing was that the vocals were most prominent and strongest on the Center speaker, which was great.

Some people may not like the slight ambience of the Hall/Concert effect of Auro3D and prefer more prominent Center and Surround effects of DSU/DTSNXU.

So it all depends on what people prefer. If they prefer a more subtle Hall ambience effect, then they will prefer Auro3D.

I never did like them either because they were kind of gimmicky. However, many music lovers goal is to make the music sound live, they will invest in expensive transparent speakers, amps and CD players in hopes of achieving that.

 

[snakeeyes]

I like options but most of the fun with Yamaha movie dsp ended when dolby prologic was replaced with PL2 and Neo. Dolby DSU is so good it sounds like Dolby Digital almost.