A good "sucking" gadget

[WineOfTheVeins]

I added an answer as an edit to another post above. I said:

​

"I don't know if compressed air will remove dust from records. It can't blow off dust that adheres because of static electricity and fingerprint oils. Compressed air, if clean, might dry records faster after they've been washed."​

Good to know. Thank you. So after being washed, static and crud might be loosened up so the air blows it out? Or is that paste caked in there good? Not really too worried about drying per se, but the removal of crud after a clean.

 

[Swerd]

So after being washed, static and crud might be loosened up so the air blows it out? Or is that paste caked in there good? Not really too worried about drying per se, but the removal of crud after a clean.

The detergent suspends the crud and floats it away from the record groves.

Time, temperature, or mechanical scrubbing all can help with caked in paste. Soaking in detergent for a longer time is easiest – just wait about 5 minutes. Hot tap water & detergent works faster than cold water. And I'd avoid scrubbing. Those expensive ultrasonic cleaners are essentially scrubbing machines that use tiny bubbles instead of brushes.

Once the crud gets suspended, rinsing with water washes it away.

I don't think compressed air would do that. It really takes dilute detergent in water.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

The detergent suspends the crud and floats it away from the record groves.

Time, temperature, or mechanical scrubbing all can help with caked in paste. Soaking in detergent for a longer time is easiest – just wait about 5 minutes. Hot tap water & detergent works faster than cold water. And I'd avoid scrubbing. Those expensive ultrasonic cleaners are essentially scrubbing machines that use tiny bubbles instead of brushes.

Once the crud gets suspended, rinsing with water washes it away.

I don't think compressed air would do that. It really takes dilute detergent in water.

Excellent. Thanks. So you're an advocate of having the right cleaning solution, that way no suction is required to remove the crud from the grooves? It will naturally suspend and get rinsed away? I will try this.

 

[Swerd]

Excellent. Thanks. So you're an advocate of having the right cleaning solution, that way no suction is required to remove the crud from the grooves? It will naturally suspend and get rinsed away?

Right. It's really no different than washing your hands with soap and water. If they're really dirty wash, rinse, and repeat.

I've never used one of those obscenely priced vacuum things on records. But they can't make dirty records get clean. The detergent does that. The vacuum things only suck up all the water. Instead, work over the kitchen sink.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

If I may ask, how do you soak them for 5 minutes without getting the labels wet?
And I think the whole idea of the vacuum is to suck up the dirty water, not just to dry it. If the crud is suspended, it should wash away as you claim, but some might just stay in the grooves as water passes by it. Do you air dry after, or towel it down? And what do you use for agitation? Microfiber? Painters pad?

 

[Swerd]

If I may ask, how do you soak them for 5 minutes without getting the labels wet?

A 5 minute soak isn't really required. It depends on how dirty you think the record surface is. When I last did this, I used a plastic basin inside the kitchen sink.

• I duct taped a length of string between two cutting boards, and propped them up, standing on their edges, on either side of plastic basin.
• I ran string through the record's hole, and suspended it in the basin.
• Then I filled it with enough dilute detergent in warm water to soak the groves without getting the label wet.
• I let it soak a minute or two, rotated the record, and let it soak more… until I was happy or when I got bored.
• I never scrubbed, but a microfiber cloth might be OK.
• After soaking, I rinsed well with cold tap water straight from the faucet.
• For a final rinse, I used a plant sprayer filled with a mix of 1 part isopropyl alcohol and 3 parts distilled water.
• I dried the record propped up in a dish rack.

It wasn't rocket science, but it worked.

If the crud is suspended, it should wash away as you claim, but some might just stay in the grooves as water passes by it.

The crud (dust mixed with fingerprint oils) does get suspended in detergent solutions. The action of detergent is well known to lab scientists but is not well understood by most others. I tried to find a simple internet description of how detergents work that doesn't get deep into oil/water partition and detergent micelles. I didn't find anything I thought was very good, but did find this simplified cartoon of detergent action. See below.

Technically, dilute solutions of detergent in water allow formation of microscopic bubble-like structures called micelles. In panel 1 of the diagram below, these micelles are labeled as 'Detergent Molecules'. Soil or crud tends to be oily or greasy, and doesn't dissolve in water alone. Instead, it tends to deposit on surfaces, as shown in panel 1. With detergent present in the form of micelles, the crud gets coated with individual detergent molecules (the 'lollipops' in panels 2-4), lifts from the surface, and is suspended in water in the form of mixed micelles of detergent and crud, as shown in panels 2-4. I hope this helps you understand what goes on.

The real trick is to use just enough detergent to form micelles. If you use too much detergent, rinsing all the detergent away becomes a problem. A few drops of liquid dish detergent does the job. The water should not be sudsy.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you very much for all of the helpful input.
While I agree proper handling is very important, and I am dead careful when handling records, a lot of the time the problem comes from the factory. I have opened a few new records now, that already have swirls, scuffs, fingerprints and other paper/dust residue on them. While sometimes this isn't an issue as it hardly affects the performance, other times it is! That record that I was talking about, Cleopatra by the Lumineers. Absolute garbage. Horrible job pressing. After cleaning it on their VPI, and it didn't help even though they said it was filthy, they replaced it with another copy. Gave the second copy a spin last night, same damn problem. Tons of surface noise, crackles, pops, and it wasn't static, as a lot of the constant revolution clicks were in the same damn place as the last one. So annoying. I have returned probably 30% of the new vinyl I have bought.
I don't believe I've bought a sealed pressing from the 80's but I will keep that in mind.

I digress. A poor pressing is a poor pressing. I am looking to get thrift finds, and new sealed ones minty clean before playing preferably. I am finding sometimes that a 1970's record I buy used plays nicer than a package-fresh one. So much grime and poor QC at some plants, not all.

The air compressor!! I never thought of that before.. Does that work? I do have a Bostitch air compressor that throws 150psi I believe. What would be the recommended process for cleaning via compressor? Wash first? Just dry blast with air?

Haven't heard of Alconox, wonder if I can get my hands on some. Also, I will look into the Dust Bug. Thank you boys

Your problem really sounds to me like reground vinyl. This has been common in the US, and given vinyl a bad name for pops and crackles. If you had that LP not improved after a run on a VPI machine, I can tell you that LP contains reground vinyl and there is no solution for it.

 

[slipperybidness]

Although detergents like the various types sold under the Alconox brand name will work, so will much less expensive detergents. I use liquid dish washing detergents sold in any grocery store. These are detergents for hand washing, not for dishwasher machines. Any brand will do.

The key is is to use a very DILUTE solution of detergent. One or two drops in a gallon of water. If the solution gets sudsy, you put in too much detergent. This will dissolve grease from finger prints or the residues left after pressing records. It also suspends the dust and debris so it easily rinses off. Use water to rinse, tap water is fine. After that, do a final rinse with a mixture of isopropyl alcohol and distilled or deionized water. Both are available in drug stores. The isopropanol/water mix dries faster than water alone, and won't leave water spots on the record's surface. (Water spots are deposits of calcium carbonate, lime salts, that are in hard tap water.)

I don't know if compressed air will remove dust from records. It can't blow off dust that adheres because of static electricity and fingerprint oils. Compressed air, if clean, might dry records faster after they've been washed.

You make 2 very good points/details!

IPA to help items dry quicker.

And, VERY IMPORTANT, only use Distilled Water for these solutions!

I know that Alconox is not cheap, but it really is worth the $ in my opinion. If I were really going to use dish soap for this, then I would be looking for one with the least amount of fragrance, color additives, etc. I'm thinking that likely Ivory dish soap is where I would start my looking.

I know that you have lab experience, but I'm in the Trace Metal Analysis world, and I can vouch for the Alconox. Of course, in the trace contamination world, I would only use Alconox on the worst of the worst problems, and I would have rigorous followup rinsing and sonication too!

All that being said, Dawn is an amazing product. In general, I tend to prefer the cheaper knock-off brand called Ajax, the orange stuff.

 

[slipperybidness]

Denatured alcohol mixed with water works. So do low residue detergents such as laundry soap. My favorite would be Dawn dish detergent and I would not worry too much with the concentration, so long as it's somewhat easily rinsed. It should feel slightly soapy to touch, if you want to remove something like greasy fingerprints with it. It's vinyl. It would take a very hot solvent such as that which melts (solvent welds) PVC to harm it. More concern would be with the cloth instead, making sure it did not have debris like sand stuck in it. The other would be not getting the label wet.

Continuous, long-term contact with Isopropyl Alcohol will harm PVC by leaching out the plasticizers in the polymer structure. It will become brittle over time.

But, exposing a vinyl record to IPA a few times over many years or decades really should not cause any "real" degradation.

See my response above, Alconox is the top dog, but it is not cheap.

 

[slipperybidness]

A 5 minute soak isn't really required. It depends on how dirty you think the record surface is. When I last did this, I used a plastic basin inside the kitchen sink.

• I duct taped a length of string between two cutting boards, and propped them up, standing on their edges, on either side of plastic basin.
• I ran string through the record's hole, and suspended it in the basin.
• Then I filled it with enough dilute detergent in warm water to soak the groves without getting the label wet.
• I let it soak a minute or two, rotated the record, and let it soak more… until I was happy or when I got bored.
• I never scrubbed, but a microfiber cloth might be OK.
• After soaking, I rinsed well with cold tap water straight from the faucet.
• For a final rinse, I used a plant sprayer filled with a mix of 1 part isopropyl alcohol and 3 parts distilled water.
• I dried the record propped up in a dish rack.

It wasn't rocket science, but it worked.
The crud (dust mixed with fingerprint oils) does get suspended in detergent solutions. The action of detergent is well known to lab scientists but is not well understood by most others. I tried to find a simple internet description of how detergents work that doesn't get deep into oil/water partition and detergent micelles. I didn't find anything I thought was very good, but did find this simplified cartoon of detergent action. See below.

Technically, dilute solutions of detergent in water allow formation of microscopic bubble-like structures called micelles. In panel 1 of the diagram below, these micelles are labeled as 'Detergent Molecules'. Soil or crud tends to be oily or greasy, and doesn't dissolve in water alone. Instead, it tends to deposit on surfaces, as shown in panel 1. With detergent present in the form of micelles, the crud gets coated with individual detergent molecules (the 'lollipops' in panels 2-4), lifts from the surface, and is suspended in water in the form of mixed micelles of detergent and crud, as shown in panels 2-4. I hope this helps you understand what goes on.

The real trick is to use just enough detergent to form micelles. If you use too much detergent, rinsing all the detergent away becomes a problem. A few drops of liquid dish detergent does the job. The water should not be sudsy.

Micelles are the key.

In fact, the real key is the Critical Micelle Concentration (CMC). I'm sure I'm not educating you here, just info for the other members.

If you have excess conc of detergent above the CMC, then you are really just wasting $, and it is more difficult to rinse off than it should be.

I would even be so bold as to say, "85% of people waste 85% of their detergent"

 

[lovinthehd]

I bought some Tergikleen for use with a Spin Clean. YMMV. I wouldn't use a typical shop air compressor due the inherent lubrication oil that comes out with the air in many such machines....

 

[MrBoat]

Continuous, long-term contact with Isopropyl Alcohol will harm PVC by leaching out the plasticizers in the polymer structure. It will become brittle over time.

But, exposing a vinyl record to IPA a few times over many years or decades really should not cause any "real" degradation.

See my response above, Alconox is the top dog, but it is not cheap.

It shouldn't be needed but once. And diluted with water, it is even color safe for most fabrics. Once my records were clean, they tended to stay that way for a long time if I could keep them away from others. I would say that vinyl has a much safer existence than it used to.

One of those fuzzy paint edger tools has a real fine micro bristle to it that is very soft. If you had to scrub in the direction of the grooves with anything, that would be a good bet.

Enough soap to keep a solid film on the vinyl, and just enough to not be dispersed by the oil is what we used. It wasn't very much and certainly less than they use to clean the crude oil off of sea animals.

 

[Swerd]

Continuous, long-term contact with Isopropyl Alcohol will harm PVC by leaching out the plasticizers in the polymer structure. It will become brittle over time.

That's why I say to dilute the isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol, IPA) with 3 times its volume in water. In drug stores I can find 70% isopropanol, so after diluting it's only about 17½% isopropanol. That won't harm PVC. And I spray only enough to wet the surface of the record. It prevents water from beading up and helps the wet record surface to dry faster.

I know that Alconox is not cheap, but it really is worth the $ in my opinion. If I were really going to use dish soap for this, then I would be looking for one with the least amount of fragrance, color additives, etc. I'm thinking that likely Ivory dish soap is where I would start my looking.

I know that you have lab experience, but I'm in the Trace Metal Analysis world, and I can vouch for the Alconox. Of course, in the trace contamination world, I would only use Alconox on the worst of the worst problems, and I would have rigorous followup rinsing and sonication too!

When you're going to do a sensitive chemical assay, such as trace metal analysis or amino acid analysis, you have to use ultrapure grades of solvents and detergents. If you're going to play the record afterwards, you can get away with much lower purity. Fragrance and color additives may offend the audiophile , but you cannot hear them after rinsing and drying the record.

Micelles are the key.

In fact, the real key is the Critical Micelle Concentration (CMC). I'm sure I'm not educating you here, just info for the other members.

Yes, you're correct. I was trying to avoid using esoteric terms like hydrophillic, hydrophobic, amphipathic, or critical micelle concentration.

 

[Swerd]

I bought some Tergikleen for use with a Spin Clean.

Detergent is detergent. If you must spend that much money, next time you need it buy Triton X-100. A 500 mL bottle will be all you'll ever need.

I wouldn't use a typical shop air compressor due the inherent lubrication oil that comes out with the air in many such machines....

Good point. Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

I bought some Tergikleen for use with a Spin Clean. YMMV. I wouldn't use a typical shop air compressor due the inherent lubrication oil that comes out with the air in many such machines....

Well you can organize wet and dry lines. I have two lines from my 60 gallon air tank. One goes through the combined regulator/oiler for the air tools. The other by bypasses the oiler, and goes though a high grade Dixon filter that removes water and impurities. The dry line can be used for paint spraying where the slightest impurity totally ruins the job.

 

[highfigh]

IPA to help items dry quicker.

Imported Pale Ale?

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Imported from india?

 

[highfigh]

Imported from india?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Certainly not Indiana.

 

[TLS Guy]

Imported from india?

No the other way round. IPA originally a bottled beer, similar to UK Pale ale. It is a top fermentation and not a larger style bottom fermentation, like most Europis.

The IPA is a version of pale ale with extra hops and a higher alcohol content. It was popular with British troops in India during the RAJ. Hence India Pale Ale. So it was a beer for export to India.

There are versions of it as a pulled draught beer also.

 

[lovinthehd]

No the other way round. IPA originally a bottled beer, similar to UK Pale ale. It is a top fermentation and not a larger style bottom fermentation, like most Europis.

The IPA is a version of pale ale with extra hops and a higher alcohol content. It was popular with British troops in India during the RAJ. Hence India Pale Ale. So it was a beer for export to India.

There are versions of it as a pulled draught beer also.

IPA was more suited to the long transportation involved from Britain to India is my understanding.