Dolby Restricting Use of 3rd Party Upmixers on Atmos Products

[-Jim-]

Thanks for the info Gene.

I am on the verge of pulling the trigger on a Denon AVR-X4400H just to get into immersive sound, and now this? (I have a 7.2 capable Denon AVR-S900W which is working just fine.) I was counting on the ability to Upmix various sources to make use of the inceiling speakers I installed during our recent renovation. This sort of restrictive behavior make folks like me even more reluctant to migrate to immersive sound, and more new expensive equipment.

 

[Vader3069]

This was done a few years ago. It was scrapped then and I hope that it will be scrapped again. I spent $4,000 on my X8500H. I did NOT spend that much money to be TOLD how I can use it!!
What's next? Dolby coming to my house and ripping down my height channels because they are not how Dolby wants them to be?
I'm 42. I don't need a company to tell me what to do, or how I should do it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a Yamaha CX-A5100 also. The latest firmware didn’t restrict the Upmixer. But I wouldn’t even care if the next firmware does restrict.

So right now when I use DSU and play a DTSX movie, it still uses DSU.

I wouldn’t mind that when I use DSU mode and played a DTSX movie, that it automatically switched back to DTSX (this, the DSU restriction).

So I guess I am among the few people that don’t seem to be affected at all by this DSU restriction.

 

[Bookmark]

Actually that is incorrect. If you have a Dts:X track then it is down mixed to Dts HDMA before being upmixed by DSU. Atmos remains unchanged. Bring up the info button and you will see. I thought it was fine too but I don't think this is a recent change.

Atmos/Dts:X should use "Straight" upmixing is of no benefit.

 

[Vader3069]

The thing is, they want it restricted not just to Atmos. It's for ALL Dolby's formats. Example. I have Shin Godzilla on blu-ray. It's in English TRUEHD 3.1 and Japanese DTS Master 3.1. I want to listen to it in English but want to up-mix it to 11.1. If I use Dolby, it only adds height and not to well. Don't even think about surrounds. Use Neural X and voila. You have it all.
If you're locked, you are screwed.
Of course, I could listen in Japanese. The problem is that many discs do not have both formats on them. And if one up-mixer works better for you, again, if you're locked in you're screwed.

 

[Bookmark]

Only the 2018 Yamaha releases have been confirmed to have the Dolby restrictions so far. Other manufacturers may have to do this too before the end of the year for 2018 models. We will have to wait and see. Going forward from 2019 they all will.

As the restriction stands Dolby will only properly up mix its own codecs. Dts Neural X is limited to up mixing Dolby to a 5.1 I believe. Yamaha has a auto feature in the new models which may limit the problem by automatically selecting DSU for Dolby and Neural X for Dts. I don't think the full range of options has been fully explored yet.

 

[-Jim-]

I did take the plunge on a new Denon AVR-X4400H. I upgraded the firmware once as I knew these restrictions were not (yet?) applied. Then I turned off Automatic Updates as I don't want to lose the flexibility that was part of the buying decision to move to an immersive sound system.

I'll keep an eye out for the impact of future firmware updates before I allow the X4400H to update. I'd suggest those concerned about this do the same.

 

[Vader3069]

I did the same. The only thing is that the updates can be beneficial. They don't always tell you what they are doing in it.

 

[RichB]

Perhaps, BD/UHD players could jump in here and provide options to output Atmos/DTS-X as bitstream and all other formats as LPCM.
This will permit up-mixing of non-3D sound-tracks.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually that is incorrect. If you have a Dts:X track then it is down mixed to Dts HDMA before being upmixed by DSU. Atmos remains unchanged. Bring up the info button and you will see. I thought it was fine too but I don't think this is a recent change.

Atmos/Dts:X should use "Straight" upmixing is of no benefit.

Yeah, when I watch DTSX movies, I use "Straight" mode, instead of "Dolby Surround".

But I was saying that with the new DSU Restriction - if Dolby doesn't allow any kind of up-mixing on DTSX - maybe DTSX will NOT go through the "down-mix/up-mix" business; DTSX would go "Straight" to DTSX even when you use "Dolby Surround".

 

[Bookmark]

I too had hoped since adding the extra speakers if I could leave it on DSU or Neural X. But when I checked the info it was no longer Dts:X. I have yet to try Atmos with Neural X but I suspect a similar result, Atmos will be down mixed to True HD first, Dts:X will be untouched.

It makes sense if you think about it. They are trying to add extra info out of a format which already has it. It is a shame I would like to have left it in one mode or have an Auto select.

 

[Bookmark]

Assume the worst for the up mixers. It was reported on the AVS Aventage 80 series thread that Dolby gets restricted, regardless of the base codec to 5.1 for Neural X. I think the same opposite is true for Dts on DSU.

I would not take this information as entirely definitive and it could yet change again. It was just my take from it.

 

[Bookmark]

@RichB My understanding is that if the format is switched to multi channel PCM then it can be up mixed by all the other up mix formats, including Auro3d. Even after the Dolby restrictions. However, correct if I am wrong, it is not possible to get above 7.1 with PCM decoding due to the differing implementation of the Overhead channels

 

[Vader3069]

PCM is limited to 7.1. I've never seen a 5.1 limit when feeding TrueHD to Neural X.
Also, my players decode Atmos and X to be output as PCM. I could still get "height" info if I used Auro. It was designed to be used with PCM anyway. However, I bet Dolby is aware of this and it will implement a way to prevent it from happening too.
Any way you slice it, we, and Dolby's licensees are going to suffer badly if this goes through.

 

[Vader3069]

I forgot to mention... Let's not forget about streaming devices. Roku and the newest version of Amazon Fire TV mainly output DD+. Roku can also do DTS, but I never saw it. My receiver always showed DD+. This leads to a pretty big dilemma. Essentially it means Dolby will remove a good deal of functionality from your receiver. Especially when you watch a lot of streaming as I do.

 

[M Code]

My understanding is that Dolby will not certify the product unless the up mixer is switched out for the other competitive sources.....

Just my $0.02....

 

[Cisco1542]

Hi wanted to know if the denon AVR X4300h with the newest firmware are affected by this. haven't updated my firmware for like 6 months or so. thanks again for the info u give to the community

 

[KaatheSnake]

That's why I use DBX!

 

[gene]

Hi wanted to know if the denon AVR X4300h with the newest firmware are affected by this. haven't updated my firmware for like 6 months or so. thanks again for the info u give to the community

As far as I know, the latest FW updates on Sound United products have not restricted upmixing. I own an SR8012 and all of the upmixing options still work for various signals.

Emotiva on the other hand is compliant with Dolby requirements which really sucks for them and their owners:
https://emotiva.com/blogs/latest-1/a-brand-new-path-dolby-atmos-and-dts-x-is-here

I had no idea Dolby was enforcing this for 2CH PCM too. Crazy!

 

[Bookmark]

As far as I know, the latest FW updates on Sound United products have not restricted upmixing.

AFAIK, they definitely will be doing it in 2019, how many of the 2018/17 models will get is still not clear, and there is still the possibility of another update before the end of year. My 6012 update a couple of weeks ago when you reported it for the Imax/eArc and nothing has changed for me either.

I had no idea Dolby was enforcing this for 2CH PCM too. Crazy!

That one is new one to me too. From what I have read of the Yamaha owner it's not been a massive problem or that PCM was affected. I thought this was supposed to be an up mix option still for either.