Dolby Restricting Use of 3rd Party Upmixers on Atmos Products

[gene]

Hi wanted to know if the denon AVR X4300h with the newest firmware are affected by this. haven't updated my firmware for like 6 months or so. thanks again for the info u give to the community

As far as I know, the latest FW updates on Sound United products have not restricted upmixing. I own an SR8012 and all of the upmixing options still work for various signals.

Emotiva on the other hand is compliant with Dolby requirements which really sucks for them and their owners:
https://emotiva.com/blogs/latest-1/a-brand-new-path-dolby-atmos-and-dts-x-is-here

I had no idea Dolby was enforcing this for 2CH PCM too. Crazy!

 

[Bookmark]

As far as I know, the latest FW updates on Sound United products have not restricted upmixing.

AFAIK, they definitely will be doing it in 2019, how many of the 2018/17 models will get is still not clear, and there is still the possibility of another update before the end of year. My 6012 update a couple of weeks ago when you reported it for the Imax/eArc and nothing has changed for me either.

I had no idea Dolby was enforcing this for 2CH PCM too. Crazy!

That one is new one to me too. From what I have read of the Yamaha owner it's not been a massive problem or that PCM was affected. I thought this was supposed to be an up mix option still for either.

 

[andyblackcat]

I guess the updates will lock the processor chip from performing with switching the upmixers around with other sound delivery formats as they don't often say what update is going to be added oh no that's not true. I remember now the last update was for that HEOS what ever that is I hardly use it even deleted the account for it after struggling with that lame remote control and that primitive keyboard. Why can't the AVR have extra USB inputs to use a proper wireless keyboard with a dongle connected to USB input.

 

[gene]

AFAIK, they definitely will be doing it in 2019, how many of the 2018/17 models will get is still not clear, and there is still the possibility of another update before the end of year. My 6012 update a couple of weeks ago when you reported it for the Imax/eArc and nothing has changed for me either.


That one is new one to me too. From what I have read of the Yamaha owner it's not been a massive problem or that PCM was affected. I thought this was supposed to be an up mix option still for either.

Emotive just confirmed with me this only applies to encoded 2CH PCM, not standard Redbook stuff. Whew!

 

[lovinthehd]

Emotive just confirmed with me this only applies to encoded 2CH PCM, not standard Redbook stuff. Whew!

That would really be disgusting if somehow Dolby could dictate what happened to non-Dolby encoded 2.0....it would also be disgusting if a firmware update removed such capabilities in an existing unit to comply with Dolby's dictates. Another reason to be vewy vewy careful with what updates you do (my last Denon update did not indicate what it was doing, altho seemingly was only for a Spotify update to Connect).

 

[Cisco1542]

Thanks For getting back to me Gene. It's a relief I'm going to update the firmware on the X4300H it now. thanks

 

[gene]

That would really be disgusting if somehow Dolby could dictate what happened to non-Dolby encoded 2.0....it would also be disgusting if a firmware update removed such capabilities in an existing unit to comply with Dolby's dictates. Another reason to be vewy vewy careful with what updates you do (my last Denon update did not indicate what it was doing, altho seemingly was only for a Spotify update to Connect).

The table on this page still troubles me:
https://emotiva.com/blogs/latest-1/a-brand-new-path-dolby-atmos-and-dts-x-is-here

They show analog and PCM 2CH audio not being able to upmix to Atmos but to Dolby Digital? This also appears to be effective in 2019 so I'd be cautious about updates at that time for products manufactured in 2019.

 

[Bookmark]

The table on this page still troubles me:

I am confused, the table looks correct to me.

Atmos and Dts:X don't require an up mix to deliver all the available channels and so should not use an up mixer.
Dolby DSU is up mixing anything, but Dts content and DSD (which is likely handled differently anyway). Dts Neural X is doing the same, but for not for Dolby or DSD.

Nothing ever up mixes to Atmos or Dts:X. Only the audio tracks with that content will do that. The up mixers will however use all the available speakers in pseudo Atmos/Dts:X.

At the moment even with the unaffected boxes like the 5100 you cannot do differently, except you can still use DSU on Dts content. However if you try up mixing Dts:X with DSU then the audio is reduced to the core Dts HDMA and then up mixed to DSU. Or vice versa for Dolby Atmos on the Dts Neural X. Yamaha has supposedly implemented an Auto mode to switch up mixers on the new models depending upon the source. I have not seen this myself, but if correct makes it a fairly painless solution.

 

[Bookmark]

There was a rumor on the Yamaha thread, at the "other place" that Dolby DSU could partially still be used with Dts content, but would only up mixed to 5.1, which of course would be pointless.

 

[arnoob]

Hi Gene, I really appreciate your site and the work you’ve done to shed light on this story! One question I had is how does a soundbar/AR recognize decompressed Dolby content as Dolby?

My (limited) understanding was that when Dolby content comes into a TV or media player, the TV/player decompresses the Dolby stream into PCM. The PCM is then fed to the upmixer. How does the upmixer recognize PCM as Dolby content so it can apply Dolby’s new restriction?

 

[gene]

Last year we reported on Dolby restricting upmixing of non-native content through their DSU. This had the potential of restricting consumer choices for upmixing content through competitor upmixers such as DTS Neural:X or Auro-matic. Apparently enough backlash was felt from licensee partners and consumers causing Dolby to withdraw this restriction on new Atmos enabled AV products going forward.

Read : Dolby Withdraws Upmixer Restrictions to find out the implications and what to expect going forward. A Win for Consumers?!?

 

[Jon AA]

Awesome news. My opinion of Dolby dropped a few notches when they made the restriction, I guess they've now climbed back up a couple. I had been assuming it would take a lawsuit to do it.

This is even bigger now with all these "relatively affordable" 16 channel processors becoming available as well as DTS:X Pro. DSU simply won't use many speaker locations many users may have, while presumably Neural:X Pro will.

And of course for those of us who like Auromatic for music, maybe this will stave off it being eliminated entirely from all those processors. DTSro will use all those speaker locations as well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Great news for fans who use NeuralX for everything except the great Atmos contents.

For pathetic fake Atmos contents (like Netflix, Marvel and most comic book movies), NeuralX can also be great.

 

[RichB]

I posted a link to the article on the Emotiva forum. I can't imaging that Emotiva will continue to restrict upmixing.
There is no word on Auro3D support but they have a full-plate right now.

- Rich

 

[gene]

I posted a link to the article on the Emotiva forum. I can't imaging that Emotiva will continue to restrict upmixing.
There is no word on Auro3D support but they have a full-plate right now.

- Rich

It sounds like Emotiva has their work cut out for them in updating their code to allow cross mixing without breaking other stuff in the process.

The President of Auro-3D reached out to me to let me know they were also in alliance with DTS on lifting this restriction so kudos to both of them for working with the European Commission and Dolby to get it abolished.

 

[snakeeyes]

I wonder if this Dolby/DTS standoff is related to Yamaha not refreshing their receiver lineup in 2019 like they normally do annually. I know summer 2020 they are expected to release new models.

 

[RichB]

It sounds like Emotiva has their work cut out for them in updating their code to allow cross mixing without breaking other stuff in the process.

The President of Auro-3D reached out to me to let me know they were also in alliance with DTS on lifting this restriction so kudos to both of them for working with the European Commission and Dolby to get it abolished.

Apparently, they do. According to Lonnie, the code was put in to limit the cross upmixing for Dolby and DTS (should that be needed). I don't know why there would any UI work. I don't get why this is that hard since before upmixing it is LPCM. It sounds like the first hurdle is getting over the notion of deleting the code. It's time to let it go

- Rich

 

[gene]

Apparently, they do. According to Lonnie, the code was put in to limit the cross upmixing for Dolby and DTS (should that be needed). I don't know why there would any UI work. I don't get why this is that hard since before upmixing it is LPCM. It sounds like the first hurdle is getting over the notion of deleting the code. It's time to let it go

- Rich

LOL it's one of the reasons I stick with the big brands for pre/pros. Hate dealing with bugs or delays to get features enabled.

 

[RichB]

LOL it's one of the reasons I stick with the big brands for pre/pros. Hate dealing with bugs or delays to get features enabled.

I certainly understand why folks would pick a big brand product. HDMI works without issues, streaming options are available, and you don't have explain the system restart delay before watching the movie. They scowl...

I had 2 repairs for my AV8801. That was a while ago so I should be forgiving, but hey, I'm Italian
Also, I'm still rooting for the little guy.

- Rich

 

[gene]

I certainly understand why folks would pick a big brand product. HDMI works without issues, streaming options are available, and you don't have explain the system restart delay before watching the movie. They scowl...

I had 2 repairs for my AV8801. That was a while ago so I should be forgiving, but hey, I'm Italian
Also, I'm still rooting for the little guy.

- Rich

Yea but I spent years rooting for the little guy, being the beta tester, debugger. It's not all roses. I was happy to dump my Aragon Soundstage SSP for a Denon AVR-5803.