Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is the internal pic of the DataSAT/ATI 16 CH Pre-pro.



Very little parts compared to the Japanese AVP and AVR.

16 XLR CH (dual Subs)
7 HDMI In/ 2 out
Dirac Live Room Correction (I don’t even want this)
4K/ ATMOS/ DTSX.

What else do you want?

9CH Stereo and Internet Radio Streaming?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Jam packed prepro vs jam packed AVR, pick your poison!!

ADTG, the pic you posted for the Bryston appeared to be the 7 channel SP3, not the 16 channel SP4, can you double check please..

View attachment 25647

Nice looking Marantz!

It looks like they (Marantz) use a toroidal transformer instead of an EI (Denon).

Toroidal for Yamaha as well.

 

[little wing]

Ok! Datasat....When I'm in the market for a 15k pre-pro, That'll be the one.

 

[PENG]

Nice looking Marantz!

It looks like they (Marantz) use a toroidal transformer instead of an EI (Denon).

Toroidal for Yamaha as well.

Yep, no idea why Denon went with EI core for $4k unit, keep in mind it depend on the individual case, toroidal tx is not always better. All else being equal, there are still pros and cons for each, and all else may not be equal because in this case the are custom made for two different groups.

 

[little wing]

Yep, the nickname for New Iberia is “Da Berry”,
There is No audio/video stores here. BestBuy in Lafayette is the closest. Now that I’m retired with all the time in the world I just chill out watch movies go to this Lounge have a few brewskis chill out with some of my ole oilfield buddy’s, pick on them young lady’s, tell stories about the ole oilfield days.

Mike

That sounds like the good life my friend!

 

[PENG]

Or the SP4 could have even less parts because to make room for one big 16-XLR board, they had to get rid of most of the legacy boards.

But you’re right, Bryston doesn’t have any pics of the SP4 internals.

Anything is possible! However, there's room if they jam packed the additional channels in.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Yep, no idea why Denon went with EI core for $4k unit, keep in mind it depend on the individual case, toroidal tx is not always better. All else being equal, there are still pros and cons for each, and all else may not be equal because in this case the are custom made for two different groups.

Yeah, I'm not an EE, but I've noticed that in the audiophile market, a toroidal is usually used more than an EI. I don't know if its looks or image or what. I guess there's something about that huge toroidal transformer with that proprietary cover that impresses people.

Just look at my old 2-channel Classé power amp. That toroidal weighed a ton.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I'm not an EE, but I've noticed that in the audiophile market, a toroidal is usually used more than an EI. I don't know if its looks or image or what. I guess there's something about that huge toroidal transformer with that proprietary cover that impresses people.

Just look at my old 2-channel Classé power amp. That toroidal weighed a ton.

View attachment 25649

Actually one of the pros of the toroidal is that it is lighter, that is, better VA to lbs ratios. Incidentally, the Denon is 13 lbs heavier.

Soundstage.com has an article on the pros and cons of the toroidal vs EI core, interestingly, the author name it the "high-end mythology of the toroidal transformer. That's quite appropriate in the audio circle, where lots of people seem to believe toroidal is always better, even though there were some very high end gear that opted for the non toroidal type.

https://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm

 

[Bookmark]

It is really unfair to compare a Processor or Stereo/monoblock amp to a high count, multi channel AVRs.

The Bryston, Theta, Datasat, ATI engineers don't have to built it for 1 or 2 grand retail, don't have to shift 10s of thousands of units just to cover the development cost and still make a profit. If they did, their reliability would tank and the vast open interiors would be whole lot busier. Even the ATI/Monolith/Emotive 7 channel amp are a heck lot more cramped and dense. The Japanese engineers are doing a pretty good job packing it in and still keeping it running reliably.

Try fitting all the Bryson processor gubbins inside these boxes all wired up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...The Bryston, Theta, Datasat, ATI engineers don't have to built it for 1 or 2 grand retail...

So in order for engineers to built a Pre-pro that looks empty inside with a lot less parts, the cost would have to be a lot higher?

 

[Bookmark]

It's not like for like. One is building for a cost/sale price/performance and the other is trying to design the best product it can. One sell by volume and the other sells as a premium product.

ATI are making multi channel amps at a range of prices, for numerous brands. Pretty sure they can hit a particular price point if they had to. If they have to then squeeze in the Processor components inside the same size box then compromises will have to be made. You can't just fill the space up with large heat sinks.

When ATI start putting out 11 or 13 channels amp into the volume of Yamaha MX 5200 then we can discuss if they can still do that for 2.5K and whether it is an over packed design

 

[TechHDS]

It is really unfair to compare a Processor or Stereo/monoblock amp to a high count, multi channel AVRs.

The Bryston, Theta, Datasat, ATI engineers don't have to built it for 1 or 2 grand retail, don't have to shift 10s of thousands of units just to cover the development cost and still make a profit. If they did, their reliability would tank and the vast open interiors would be whole lot busier. Even the ATI/Monolith/Emotive 7 channel amp are a heck lot more cramped and dense. The Japanese engineers are doing a pretty good job packing it in and still keeping it running reliably.

Try fitting all the Bryson processor gubbins inside these boxes all wired up.

Nothing like that new “car” smell with the hood off.

 

[gene]

Without doing a parts count, especially all the circuit boards, it's difficult to see if Yamaha AVR have less parts than Denon.

But after my Denon AVP-A1 died, I got pissed off and starting taking everything apart. And all the boards and parts I removed filled up a big box.

And then you see these Pre-Pros from Bryston and ATI/Theta/DataSAT that literally look EMPTY on the inside!

And you ask, if these North American engineers can build such SIMPLE designs that look like an empty PC, why the heck can't these Japanese engineers do the same?

Did they teach them in school that AVR designs need to look like the mainframe at NASA? LOL.

BC the japanese stuff typically does a lot more. American processors are often lacking in features and sometimes in performance. The AVP as a preamp/processor produced some of the best test bench results I've ever measured. If only they would have refreshed that unit with immersive surround, HDMI 2.0, and a manual PEQ, I would have taken it to my grave.

 

[Bookmark]

I love looking at, drooling over truly expensive, cost is no object turntables, speakers and amps. Pretty sure I'll never own them, most probably never even get to hear any of them, but I truly admire the people that designed and built them. I love technology, in all its many guises and if it looks pretty too, then its a bonus. Even if its just plain weird and funky.

Privetta Opera, amplifier for your Evil world dominating lair

I loved this when I saw it in the original Tomb Raider film, and this is the cheap one
https://clearaudio.de/en/_archive/turntables-solution_master_reference.php
the Expensive one is, weights in at 350Kg and the pendulum is 95Kg alone
https://clearaudio.de/en/products/turntables-statement.php

The Living Voice, Vox Olympian, Vox Elysian and comes with a full 5 year warranty

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...One sell by volume and the other sells as a premium product...

I can see the point of the niche vs mass market.

I guess the mass market doesn’t care for purely HDMI and XLR connectors?

The mass market cares mainly for a million useless DSP and Bloatware features (Virtual speakers, Internet Radio Services, etc.) ? Probably. I can see that.

I was mainly comparing the $7,500 AVP-A1HDCI and $4,000 Marantz flagship Pre-Pros vs the Bryston, ATI, DataSAT.

But I guess the AVP-A1 and Marantz are still “mass market” compared to the Bryston, ATI.

Denon/Marantz basically took their mass market AVR and changed a few things to make them mass market Pre-Pro.

That does make sense.

Whereas the Bryston and ATI are built as Pre-Pro from the ground up, not from AVR.

 

[TechHDS]

Yeah, I'm not an EE, but I've noticed that in the audiophile market, a toroidal is usually used more than an EI. I don't know if its looks or image or what. I guess there's something about that huge toroidal transformer with that proprietary cover that impresses people.

Just look at my old 2-channel Classé power amp. That toroidal weighed a ton.

View attachment 25649

Hey man! Now that’s just out right cheating! . Very nice. Big power supply, lots of caps, clean build = one lean mean power Machine!!

Mike

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Hi Mike,

Yeah, that thing was a power house, believe me. I drove a lot of different speakers with that amp and I never could get it to clip, at least not any audible clipping.

 

[panteragstk]

Jam packed prepro vs jam packed AVR, pick your poison!!

ADTG, the pic you posted for the Bryston appeared to be the 7 channel SP3, not the 16 channel SP4, can you double check please..



View attachment 25647

I don't know why, but the USB cable in that pick bothers me. That's really the only way they could get a front panel USB? Really?

 

[PENG]

I don't know why, but the USB cable in that pick bothers me. That's really the only way they could get a front panel USB? Really?

They didn't try to hide it though.

If less part is better (the @ADTG question) the Marantz HDAM thing is really silly. It is pretty obvious to me that they don't make any audible difference, and I am sure Marantz knows that too.

Look at the pictures below, they have virtually identical layout, yet Marantz has to find room to jam-packed (@ADTG's favorite) fit the 13 channel (so called 11.2 processing) audibly useless HDAM module in a box that is only slightly larger. Denon also has the audibly uselessAL32, but at last that's done digitally so minimum heat contribution and don't take extra space.

 

[gene]

This article highlights the upgrades for Yamaha's new separates:
Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200 Separates

Sadly no 13.2CH processing, no Auro-3D, not sure about HDMI 2.1, no enhanced bass management stuff I've been asking for , only difference with new amp is ability to bridge front channels Still good gear though but was expecting more....