Denon AVR x-4400h Audyssey Setup puts not recommended settings for crossover and speaker size?

[john20182050]

I have set it up 7.2 with passive bi-amp for front speakers. Here are my doubts:
1. I see and read many posts in audioholics forums and even in other sites, saying set all the speakers to small and set the crossover to 80hz. But When I completed the Audyssey Setup gives the following settings.
1. All Speakers are set to Large even the JBL 530
2. R500 and R200c are set to Full Band in the crossover
3. JBL 530s are set to 40hz as the crossover.
4. Bass: LFE

Questions:
1. Are above default Audyssey Setup configs really the recommended settings? If not why Audyssey Setup would do that?
2. Based on what I read from other forums, after the Audyssey Setup, I manually modified the following settings. Are these okay? If not, what I need to change?
a) All JBL 530 speakers to small and KEF R500 and KEF R200c to large
b) R500 front speaker's crossover to 60hz, and rest of the speakers to 80hz crossover
c) Bass - LEF + Main
d) +db volume to Sub

My config in the living room follows.
1. Denon AVR x-4400h
2. Front Speaker - KEF R500
3. Center - KEF R200c
4. Surround sides and backs - JBL 530
5. Subs - Monolith 15" Ultra and VTF-3 MK5 HP
6. Room Size: 16 * 35 ( But it's great room type with no walls between the living room and kitchen. Living room left side 16 * 16.) Please check image below

 

[j_garcia]

Try setting the speakers all to small first, then running Audessey. Yes, it is not uncommon for the software to set speakers that shouldn't be set to large that way, though this one seems particularly off. Did you run it only once? I often run it 2 or 3 times when it gets things wrong. Also, was the mic placed roughly at ear level in the listening position?

 

[PENG]

I have set it up 7.2 with passive bi-amp for front speakers. Here are my doubts:
1. I see and read many posts in audioholics forums and even in other sites, saying set all the speakers to small and set the crossover to 80hz. But When I completed the Audyssey Setup gives the following settings.
1. All Speakers are set to Large even the JBL 530
2. R500 and R200c are set to Full Band in the crossover
3. JBL 530s are set to 40hz as the crossover.
4. Bass: LFE

Questions:
1. Are above default Audyssey Setup configs really the recommended settings? If not why Audyssey Setup would do that?

Not always, according to Audyssey (https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212342423-Changing-the-cross-over-settings-after-running-Audyssey):

"MultEQ does not set crossovers. It simply finds the roll off that each speaker has in the room and where it's placed. The crossovers are set by the AVR maker."

2. Based on what I read from other forums, after the Audyssey Setup, I manually modified the following settings. Are these okay? If not, what I need to change?
a) All JBL 530 speakers to small and KEF R500 and KEF R200c to large
b) R500 front speaker's crossover to 60hz, and rest of the speakers to 80hz crossover
c) Bass - LEF + Main
d) +db volume to Sub

It is hard to say without seeing the frequency response of your speakers in your room. Based on my own experience, I think chances are good that you can do much better if you do the following instead.

To start:

a) Set all speakers to small.
b) Set crossover for the R500 to 80 Hz.
c) Set crossover for the R200C and the JBL 530s to 90 Hz
d) Set Bass to LFE
e) Increase the levels for the subs by +2 dB.

Start fine tuning after a day or two, just to experiment for even better/preferred sound:

a) Increase the crossover for the R500 to 90 Hz, and listen for yourself if it sounds better.
b) Increase the crossover for the R200C to 100 Hz, and listen carefully to determine if it is better.

If you don't listen anywhere close to reference level, that is, 85 dB average at your main seat, then you should turn on Dynamic EQ. Only use Dynamic volume if you are watching TV programs that are dialog intensive and you can't hear the dialog, or you have the volume down (example: -40 to -50) low when watching late night programs and don't want to disturb others.

My config in the living room follows.
1. Denon AVR x-4400h
2. Front Speaker - KEF R500
3. Center - KEF R200c
4. Surround sides and backs - JBL 530
5. Subs - Monolith 15" Ultra and VTF-3 MK5 HP
6. Room Size: 16 * 35 ( But it's great room type with no walls between the living room and kitchen. Living room left side 16 * 16.) Please check image below
View attachment 25648

Based on the info provided, if you listen loud, say with volume at 0, you could be getting close to (not quite, but close) your AVR's output limit. If you listen at -20 to -10, the AVR can do the job easily. Either way, I highly recommend you put at least one AC infinity fan on top of the chassis and powered it from an external USB outlet. You can also try the medium speed (quieter) first to see if that is enough to keep it cool. I kept mine below 35-37 deg C at the warmest spot on the top cover.

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00G05A2MU

 

[lovinthehd]

It won't make any difference what speaker settings you have in the Denon for bass management (small/large) before you run Audyssey as it will reset them. It is not Audyssey's recommendation, when using a sub, to set any speakers to large....this is Denon's doing (their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something). Audyssey recommends, when using a sub, all speakers set to use bass management (small) and starting with a crossover of 80hz (if you'd like I can provide a link to such). Keep in mind Audyssey is a separate organization licensing their product to the manufacturers.

The Denon is taking a measured f3 (the -3dB point on the lower end of the frequency response) of 40hz as the determining factor as to setting large/small. After running Audyssey just change the speakers to small if you're using a sub (unless you don't want to). You can raise the crossover above the recommended one, but Audyssey doesn't recommend lowering below the recommended crossover it as that would leave a gap in their filters/eq.

Personally I'd not use LFE + Main as that is somewhat a "double bass" setting and will overlap frequencies in your mains with the subs (but if you like it, use it); I would continue to use the LFE setting. I'd also forget about the avr "bi-amping". This is your avr and speakers so do what you prefer, and I'd recommend some experimentation to find out what you prefer. Many do raise sub level a few dB post-Audyssey as many prefer a bit more bass.

 

[everettT]

As mentioned in the other thread, set the fronts to small and go to a 90, 100, or 110 for the crossover. The only time you might want to run the mains at full band is for certain music.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

(their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something). \

Thats funny!

They really should change the terminology to full range/normal or something. I would guess the vast majority of people are not on a site like this and make the wrong choice from day one because they think their 4' tall speakers are "large". It really should default to small small tho. This has bugged me for years.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thats funny!

They really should change the terminology to full range/normal or something. I would guess the vast majority of people are not on a site like this and make the wrong choice from day one because they think their 4' tall speakers are "large". It really should default to small small tho. This has bugged me for years.

Yeah small/large not my favorite way of expressing to use bass management or not. My Onkyo does use the term full range or indicates a crossover. That LFE is often used confusingly doesn't help. Then again I read many posts on various fora and groups that indicate they think that because their "largish" speakers are "full range" they get upset if they get set to "small", or sometimes even suggested to be set to "small". Guys often aren't good with stuff like less watts and small speakers

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Size usually matters, but not with audyssey

 

[john20182050]

It won't make any difference what speaker settings you have in the Denon for bass management (small/large) before you run Audyssey as it will reset them. It is not Audyssey's recommendation, when using a sub, to set any speakers to large....this is Denon's doing (their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something). Audyssey recommends, when using a sub, all speakers set to use bass management (small) and starting with a crossover of 80hz (if you'd like I can provide a link to such). Keep in mind Audyssey is a separate organization licensing their product to the manufacturers.

The Denon is taking a measured f3 (the -3dB point on the lower end of the frequency response) of 40hz as the determining factor as to setting large/small. After running Audyssey just change the speakers to small if you're using a sub (unless you don't want to). You can raise the crossover above the recommended one, but Audyssey doesn't recommend lowering below the recommended crossover it as that would leave a gap in their filters/eq.

Personally I'd not use LFE + Main as that is somewhat a "double bass" setting and will overlap frequencies in your mains with the subs (but if you like it, use it); I would continue to use the LFE setting. I'd also forget about the avr "bi-amping". This is your avr and speakers so do what you prefer, and I'd recommend some experimentation to find out what you prefer. Many do raise sub level a few dB post-Audyssey as many prefer a bit more bass.

If I set all speakers to small, whether it's LFE or LFE+Main doesn't matter I guess.
LEF - Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "small",
LFE+Main - Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels.
Am I missing something?

 

[lovinthehd]

If I set all speakers to small, whether it's LFE or LFE+Main doesn't matter I guess.
LEF - Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "small",
LFE+Main - Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels.
Am I missing something?

It's a preference/accuracy sort of consideration. LFE uses the crossover circuitry to send appropriate signals to the sub/speaker so that at a given frequency (say 80hz) they "crossover" (i.e. have roll of slopes intersecting with an effective result of an 80hz crossover). LFE+Main leaves the front (L/R often, maybe L/R/C....not too sure on that) speakers full range yet still directs bass content from those speakers to the sub, thus the double bass concept. Some like it, but it's an overlap of frequency response and likely less accurate accordingly.

 

[-Jim-]

The Denon AVR-X4400H when set to LFE+Main pushes the signal to the front L/R and not the Center. My other Denon receivers also did the same.

My aged Altec Santana mains have 15 inch woofers and I set them to small with the AVR-X4400H. When you do that, the 4400 allows you to set the crossover point, so if your mains can't dig real deep, you can crossover where they still do some work, and then send the rest to your Subs.

 

[PENG]

If I set all speakers to small, whether it's LFE or LFE+Main doesn't matter I guess.

You guessed right.

LEF - Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "small",

Not wrong, but for clarity, I would say "Plays LFE signal and low range below the crossover frequencies of channels set to small."

LFE+Main - Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels.
Am I missing something?

Again, just for better clarity (LFE signal is present only in the LFE channel, that is the ".1" channel.
LFE+Main - Plays LFE signal and the low range below the crossover frequencies of the main channels.

 

[PENG]

The Denon AVR-X4400H when set to LFE+Main pushes the signal to the front L/R and not the Center. My other Denon receivers also did the same.

What do you mean by pushes the signal...?

 

[everettT]

Size usually matters, but not with audyssey

Its technically Denon (and all other manufacturers) not Audyessey as it's in their software.

 

[john20182050]

I

You guessed right.



Not wrong, but for clarity, I would say "Plays LFE signal and low range below the crossover frequencies of channels set to small."



Again, just for better clarity (LFE signal is present only in the LFE channel, that is the ".1" channel.
LFE+Main - Plays LFE signal and the low range below the crossover frequencies of the main channels.

Another related question. I have connected my Monolith sub with Y-adapters because I don't have RCA cable. Is that okay? Do I need to buy the RCA cable? The user manual has the following info. Which is better RCA or Y-Adapter?

 

[everettT]

I

Another related question. I have connected my Monolith sub with Y-adapters because I don't have RCA cable. Is that okay? Do I need to buy the RCA cable? The user manual has the following info. Which is better RCA or Y-Adapter?
View attachment 25652

No need for y adapter. Just 1 rca out to the sub

 

[john20182050]

The Denon AVR-X4400H when set to LFE+Main pushes the signal to the front L/R and not the Center. My other Denon receivers also did the same.

My aged Altec Santana mains have 15 inch woofers and I set them to small with the AVR-X4400H. When you do that, the 4400 allows you to set the crossover point, so if your mains can't dig real deep, you can crossover where they still do some work, and then send the rest to your Subs.

What should set the reference level offset to ? I'm bit confused on this even after reading other posts. What is this exactly? Do I need to change it everytime based whether I watch movie, music, etc?

 

[lovinthehd]

What should set the reference level offset to ? I'm bit confused on this even after reading other posts. What is this exactly? Do I need to change it everytime based whether I watch movie, music, etc?

The 0 setting is for movies as they are generally following a standard, music varies, so will the setting. Did you read Audyssey's recommendations? https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

Your avr will remember for a given input certain info, too.

ps Some don't use it for anything let alone everything either. Some members will tell you just how much they dislike it, too.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no right answer to this, mainly bad choices.

As I have said before, this receiver pre/pro crossover is an off the shelf crossover. There in lies the problem.

When this was conceived it was specked that all the speakers except the sub would be sealed, and at the dawn of this they were. So the roll off was 12 db per octave. So the high pass crossover was set at 12 db per per octave to create a composite fourth order high pass crossover. The low pass crossover was set fourth order at 24 db per ocatve, which is correct.

Now of course most speakers are ported and not sealed! So they roll of fourth order 24 db per octave. This makes for a composite sixth order high pass crossover 36 db per octave. The low pass is fourth order. This is not correct.

So in fact I, and actually many, correctly maintain to NOT cross capable speakers over, but use the LFE + main when using ported speakers. Most are capable and will do just fine. You then get a fourth order high and low pass crossover which is correct.

What really needs to happen is that the order of the crossovers needs to be able to be varied in the set up menu.

However not crossing over the speakers has the advantage of making the high pass crossover acoustic which causes less time and phase shift.

Even so this is still not ideal as every crossover including this one should be designed for the drivers/speakers involved. So because you need to capture the LFE, you end up having to design the speakers to the crossover and not the crossover to the speakers.

I have two systems that use the LFE output and both are designed to the crossover. It works but its backwards and would mean that you would have to purchase an integrated speaker system form the same manufacturer.

The industry is aware of this serious shortcoming, but their excuse for not solving it is that consumers are too stupid to figure it out. Unfortunately they are likely correct.

I am certain though that most ported speakers, and certainly all the capable ones should be set to large and NOT small.

Before the age of subs we never had problems with speakers handling the full frequency range.

I can tell you one thing that when you are used to systems that handle this issue correctly, the short comings of the rest are highly noticeable.

 

[PENG]

So in fact I, and actually many, correctly maintain to NOT cross capable speakers over, but use the LFE + main when using ported speakers. Most are capable and will do just fine. You then get a fourth order high and low pass crossover which is correct.

Those "many", probably did not rely on plotted graphs like I do. If they went by ears, that's subjective and less reliable than the mic/software (far from perfect either, of course..). I played with different XO post Audyssey, plot graphs each time, and picked the best looking one. There are many permutations so it was time consuming, 2 to 4 hours for me each time I did it.

What really needs to happen is that the order of the crossovers needs to be able to be varied in the set up menu.

I agree, that is a great idea. Someone has to take the lead, and it will add cost!! So who will take the risk? I bet the chance that will happen will be about 0.01% or less, because AVRs are for the mass market, in which very few people will take advantage such feature and it won't make any difference to the vast majority of the users.

However not crossing over the speakers has the advantage of making the high pass crossover acoustic which causes less time and phase shift.

I doubt that, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, and I really don't know your set up, but I know mine.

I can tell you one thing that when you are used to systems that handle this issue correctly, the short comings of the rest are highly noticeable.

I am sure it is noticeable, but to the vast majority of the users, I doubt that. Many actually are happier with the thick and heavy bass than more accurate bass achievable by whatever means.