11.2 system from scratch, well mostly

[PENG]

Both of those have the SubEQ feature of Audyssey, so they can each handle two subs with separate settings for delay and level (then XT32 eq's them together). DTS Neo:6 is just a sound mode/upmixer but from the brief look I took, they both have DTS Neo:X, tho (a later version essentially).

Yeah, unfortunately many of those comparison lists are not totally accurate, including reputable sites such as Crutchfield and even Denon's own.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, unfortunately many of those comparison lists are not totally accurate, including reputable sites such as Crutchfield and even Denon's own.

I generally just go to the product description at Denon or Marantz' site. Retailers don't have nearly as much information IME. What have you run into on the Denon site that's wrong?

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, and my vote would be to save the $120 and go for the 4400.

 

[PENG]

Oh, well maybe that’s worth considering then. It was the power on and off that I thought would be a nuisance as it’s going to be sitting on a rack in my furnace room.

Cheers,
CBASS

You can spend $50 on a triggered power strip and will still be ahead.
https://www.amazon.com/Niles-AC3-FG00242-Voltage-Triggered/dp/B00086IDDC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533578778&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+triggered+power+outlet&dpID=41LfODj5rxL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I believe you can get a triggered power bar as well, @KEW linked me one before but I couldn't find it.

 

[CBASS]

CBass, thanks for the photo. Your geometry seems very similar to mine. Now that you've cut the holes, you are definitely into 7.2.4, or at least the speakers. How far forward will you be sitting ahead of the rear Atmos speakers? I suspect the addition or loss either rear effects speakers will be a small impact in your room (like mine).

I know you are on a roll, but you may want to get everything else wired, purchased, and installed before buying the secondary amp. (Including furniture.) As you are going in-wall /ceiling for all but the Fronts, any of those can be driven by a decent 50 Watts per channel amp. If you have an old Amp/Receiver, you may want to try that as a test before going down a separate Amp road. That's my plan anyway.

Your Front Speakers should be the main focus now IMHO. I looked at SVS Prime and they are impressive based on the Reviews. The best deal I found on them in Canada was at Electronics For Less but the center is almost $1,000 and the L&R bookshelf speakers are $700 each. SVS has few distributors in Canada (none here out west) and restricts their special promotions to USA customers only. If you could accomodate 3 Ultra bookshelf for the Fronts, you'd save $$ and it would sound better too. Of course their towers would give the best sound (although not by much according to other forum members who went from the bookshelf Ultras to them). They are $2800 for the pair.

I've decided on three of the HSU CCB-8s as the reviews are off the chart, you can rotate the center speaker with no ill effect (so it fits on my entertainment unit below the TV without having to jack the TV up too high) and the cost is about $1500 CAD ($1154 USD) sent to Point Roberts nearby where my mother lives.

They did quote me to ship to Canada (in USD) below.

Product Name Qty
---------------------------------------------------
3.0 CCB-8 Speaker Pkg SB 1 $1039.00

Subtotal 1039.00
Shipping 215.88
Taxes & Duties 252.15
Total $1507.03

This works out to about $1960 CAD.

I haven't pulled the trigger on these yet as I need to see what the possible Duty & taxes are if I go pick them up from Point Roberts, Washington. (I need to visit Mom from time to time anyway & she lives in Tsawaswassen, BC =>5 minutes away from the border.) I've also been swamped with work, and other issues around the house to focus on the system for a while.

Hopefully my research can save you a few hours of effort.

I’ll be about 3.5 feet in front of the rear overheads and 3.5 behind. I’m about 7’ from all the wall surrounds. I was using the atmos sight for setup and for this room to keep things roughly in the right place seemed good at the time. It’s going to have to do now lol. So the overhead are about 5’ apart widthwise and 7’ front to back.
Seems like everyone has a hate on for my front speakers and Centre channel lol so I’ll take that as pretty good advice to change them out but that’s coming after. Fronts are the easiest thing to change but I’m sure everyone’s right that they are some of the most important components. I’ll start looking at what people are recommending but I’m likely going used as the depreciation on anything audio seems to be extreme.

Thanks,
CBASS

 

[PENG]

I generally just go to the product description at Denon or Marantz' site. Retailers don't have nearly as much information IME. What have you run into on the Denon site that's wrong?

The Denon site's comparison features are quite accurate, that's why I only said it wasn't "totally" accurate. Examples of errors that they still have not corrected can be found if you compare say, the 3500, 4400, and 6400.

Under sound enhancements
Gold Plated RCA Terminals for the 4400 and 6400 are "checked", but in fact, it should be "X" for the 4400.

Under HDMI
HDR / HLG / Dolby Vision - the US site shows only the 3500 has them all, and the 4400 and 6400 has none whereas the Canadian site is "more accurate" in showing the 6400 has those too, just no HDR10, but still incorrectly shows the 4400 has none of those features.

All minor stuff though but I am disappointed that they still have not fixed the gold plated rca thing. I don't believe it would make anything, but I was misled, and got sensitive to that because my 4308 and 8801 have already spoiled me with the gold plated RCAs.

 

[PENG]

Seems like everyone has a hate on for my front speakers and Centre channel lol so I’ll take that as pretty good advice to change them out but that’s coming after.

Not everyone, not me anyway. I thought the Monitor 7 v2 towers and the cc370 center are good speakers for HT.

 

[CBASS]

Would it be easier to just cover up the drywall holes and save some money?

What is the size of this room?

Lol, well I could do that but I’ve heard the overheads in rooms this size and really liked them. So It’s go big or go home... but on a small budget lol.

 

[CBASS]

Oh, and my vote would be to save the $120 and go for the 4400.

I’m going the 4400. Now it’s the hunt for the power amp. Thought about using my old 3802 as an amp but it seems like a bit of a PIA. I’ll do a bit more research but I think I’d prefer a dedicated amp that just works when I turn on the power. I saw some references to switched power strips and a few other things to run the 3802 so I’m going to look into it.
If I go with a dedicated amp I want to do that around 200 dollars ish or less to drive some surrounds.
Looking for any of you pros out there to point me in the right direction for the best two channel amp to drive two of these surrounds or tell me I should spend 30 minutes and figure out how to get my 3802 wired to supply power.

 

[CBASS]

You can spend $50 on a triggered power strip and will still be ahead.
https://www.amazon.com/Niles-AC3-FG00242-Voltage-Triggered/dp/B00086IDDC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533578778&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+triggered+power+outlet&dpID=41LfODj5rxL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I believe you can get a triggered power bar as well, @KEW linked me one before but I couldn't find it.

I’m sure that would be fine for off but the receiver is still switched for on. Pretty sure I’ll just look for a power amp. It’s just for surrounds so doubt I need massive power or cost. Then again I have little idea.

 

[lovinthehd]

I’m going the 4400. Now it’s the hunt for the power amp. Thought about using my old 3802 as an amp but it seems like a bit of a PIA. I’ll do a bit more research but I think I’d prefer a dedicated amp that just works when I turn on the power. I saw some references to switched power strips and a few other things to run the 3802 so I’m going to look into it.
If I go with a dedicated amp I want to do that around 200 dollars ish or less to drive some surrounds.
Looking for any of you pros out there to point me in the right direction for the best two channel amp to drive two of these surrounds or tell me I should spend 30 minutes and figure out how to get my 3802 wired to supply power.

If you don't mind the dual avrs, the 3802 would work fine as an amp thru its multich analog inputs; a smart power strip is what I use to turn on my sub amps when I turn on my avr. $200 for an amp might be a bit low except used. Might look for something like a Crown XLS 1002/1502 as good value 2ch amps.

 

[CBASS]

If you don't mind the dual avrs, the 3802 would work fine as an amp thru its multich analog inputs; a smart power strip is what I use to turn on my sub amps when I turn on my avr. $200 for an amp might be a bit low except used. Might look for something like a Crown XLS 1002/1502 as good value 2ch amps.

This is all sitting on a rack in my furnace room. Asthetics are irrelevant. My only question is even with a smart strip I’d still have to push the power button on the receiver to turn it on(seems pretty minor if I’m running it on overheads as I’m not going to require 5.2.4 all the time) or I buy an oldy but a goody power amp and plug into a switched outlet on the back of the AVR.
There’s no shortage of older good power amps kicking around for about 100 bucks but they are all 60-70 watts per channel. Is that enough?

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[lovinthehd]

This is all sitting on a rack in my furnace room. Asthetics are irrelevant. My only question is even with a smart strip I’d still have to push the power button on the receiver to turn it on(seems pretty minor if I’m running it on overheads as I’m not going to require 5.2.4 all the time) or I buy an oldy but a goody power amp and plug into a switched outlet on the back of the AVR.
There’s no shortage of older good power amps kicking around for about 100 bucks but they are all 60-70 watts per channel. Is that enough?

Cheers,
CBASS

Sure, for most surround use, particularly overheads, 60/70 watts should be fine, altho a higher power amp might let you instead use them on your mains to spread the load out in the avr a bit better, especially for 2ch use. Just leave the power button engaged is what I do with my amps that turn on when I turn on the avr using the smart strip. I wouldn't plug an amp into an outlet on an avr (and most avrs don't have power outlets at all anymore, doubt the 4400 has one).

Curious what good old power amps do you have to choose from that are only 60/70 wpc?

ps Why buy another amp, going to repurpose the avr somehow?

 

[CBASS]

Sure, for most surround use, particularly overheads, 60/70 watts should be fine, altho a higher power amp might let you instead use them on your mains to spread the load out in the avr a bit better, especially for 2ch use. Just leave the power button engaged is what I do with my amps that turn on when I turn on the avr using the smart strip. I wouldn't plug an amp into an outlet on an avr (and most avrs don't have power outlets at all anymore, doubt the 4400 has one).

Curious what good old power amps do you have to choose from that are only 60/70 wpc?

ps Why buy another amp, going to repurpose the avr somehow?

I’m not necessarily convinced repurposing my 3802 is a bad idea. Just seems like a PIA and I have no idea how or if I have to match output with volume control etc.
I never thought about driving larger speakers with an alternative amp vs just hooking up some surrounds. We are delving into different territory now.
I guess the question is whether to drive large speakers or the smaller speakers. The 3802 is only 100 watts. Im way outta my league here now lol. Here’s a few I can pickup. Quite frankly the Sony for 50.00 is rediculous cheap for what I need.

As far as amps I can pick this unit up for 100.00.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/ta-n55es.shtml
This one 300 bucks
https://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/brochure/Crest_Audio_CM_Series.pdf

250.00
Rotel RB-970BX

Nothing here is cost prohibitive by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Verdinut]

I’m not necessarily convinced repurposing my 3802 is a bad idea. Just seems like a PIA and I have no idea how or if I have to match output with volume control etc.
I never thought about driving larger speakers with an alternative amp vs just hooking up some surrounds. We are delving into different territory now.
I guess the question is whether to drive large speakers or the smaller speakers. The 3802 is only 100 watts. Im way outta my league here now lol. Here’s a few I can pickup. Quite frankly the Sony for 50.00 is rediculous cheap for what I need.

As far as amps I can pick this unit up for 50.00.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/ta-n55es.shtml
This one 300 bucks
https://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/brochure/Crest_Audio_CM_Series.pdf

Nothing here is cost prohibitive by any stretch of the imagination.

The Peavey/Crest multi-channel power amps you are referring to are not hi-fi amplifiers. They are designed for PA systems. I would not spend a cent on those.

 

[CBASS]

The Peavey/Crest multi-channel power amps you are referring to are not hi-fi amplifiers. They are designed for PA systems. I would not spend a cent on those.

Thanks,

Hence why I’m on this forum lol.

I’ll scratch that one off the list.

For 1000.00 I think that Sony will drive the extra two channels quite nicely if I don’t repurpose my old AVR 3802. Maybe I should use both

Sony anyone?

Cheers,
CBASS

 

[Verdinut]

I’m not necessarily convinced repurposing my 3802 is a bad idea. Just seems like a PIA and I have no idea how or if I have to match output with volume control etc.
I never thought about driving larger speakers with an alternative amp vs just hooking up some surrounds. We are delving into different territory now.
I guess the question is whether to drive large speakers or the smaller speakers. The 3802 is only 100 watts. Im way outta my league here now lol. Here’s a few I can pickup. Quite frankly the Sony for 50.00 is rediculous cheap for what I need.

As far as amps I can pick this unit up for 100.00.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/ta-n55es.shtml
This one 300 bucks
https://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/brochure/Crest_Audio_CM_Series.pdf

250.00
Rotel RB-970BX

Nothing here is cost prohibitive by any stretch of the imagination.

You say that the 3802 has a power rating of only 100 watts, but the Sony has only 110 w/ch and that's less than 1dB difference in power. For practical purposes, they are identical as far as power is concerned. You would not get any sound improvement with the Sony.

 

[Verdinut]

The following one seems to be an interesting one:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Harman-Crown-XLS-1000-XLS1000-High-Density-Power-Amplifier-Two-CH-350W-4-ohms/372390492244?hash=item56b433f854:g:Ou8AAOSwmodbZRAz&_sop=15&_sacat=180014&_nkw=crown+xls&_from=R40&rt=nc

 

[lovinthehd]

I’m not necessarily convinced repurposing my 3802 is a bad idea. Just seems like a PIA and I have no idea how or if I have to match output with volume control etc.
I never thought about driving larger speakers with an alternative amp vs just hooking up some surrounds. We are delving into different territory now.
I guess the question is whether to drive large speakers or the smaller speakers. The 3802 is only 100 watts. Im way outta my league here now lol. Here’s a few I can pickup. Quite frankly the Sony for 50.00 is rediculous cheap for what I need.

As far as amps I can pick this unit up for 100.00.
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/ta-n55es.shtml
This one 300 bucks
https://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/brochure/Crest_Audio_CM_Series.pdf

250.00
Rotel RB-970BX

Nothing here is cost prohibitive by any stretch of the imagination.

You would do a little gain matching with your pre-out level from the 4400 and the input of the 3802, but not hard to do (you'd need to do the same with any amp with gain controls).

Generally larger speakers tend to be more sensitive, so easier to drive in that respect. 100W is better than 60/70w.

I own one of the Crest 2208s. It is perfectly fine for hi-fi use (it's no less suited than Verdinuts QSC "PA" amps used in movie theaters ), except for the quite loud fan noise, which won't be a issue for you; it also has phoenix connectors, so a little more work to use it with pre-outs from the 4400 (which are rca). I built cables to do that for mine. By repurpose the 3802 I meant not as power amp but use it in another system elsewhere in the house/garage....

 

[CBASS]

You say that the 3802 has a power rating of only 100 watts, but the Sony has only 110 w/ch and that's less than 1dB difference in power. For practical purposes, they are identical as far as power is concerned. You would not get any sound improvement with the Sony.

Hm interesting. Here’s the specs on the 3802.

https://www.cnet.com/products/denon-avr-3802/specs/