HSU VS JTR

[Verdinut]

Excellent thanks for the info... if the sub I posted is only rated for 70 watts then why would it be more than twice as expensive as the one you are suggesting?

did you mean the RSS460 and not the 450? I don't see the 450 on the site.

Yes, it is the RSS460. Info corrected in previous post.

 

[moves]

I came across the martycube plans and they seem to have good reviews...

I've heard good things about the UM18-22 driver as well..... Not sure what the difference is compared to the RSS460?

So basically, choose a driver which I think I did.... find a plan.. which I think I did.

build the box, get and amp, connect the wires and good to go?

 

[moves]

Here is a reply from Solen for my question on woofer and amp suggestions:

Here is a list of 18” subwoofers;

Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 ; https://solen.ca/products/speakers/home-speakers/subwoofers/rss460ho-4/
Dayton Audio UM18-22 ; https://solen.ca/products/speakers/home-speakers/subwoofers/um18-22/
Dayton Audio DCS450-4 ; https://solen.ca/products/speakers/home-speakers/subwoofers/dcs450-4/
Volt RV456408 ; https://solen.ca/products/speakers/home-speakers/woofers/rv456408/

Here is a list of notable subwoofer amps;

Dayton Audio SPA1000 ; https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/spa1000/
Dayton Audio SPA1200DSP ; https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/spa1200dsp/
Dayton Audio SPA2400DSP ; https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/spa2400dsp/
Dayton Audio SA1000 ; https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/dayton-audio-sa1000/

We can supply you with some plans. We can also manufacture custom enclosures for you.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Verdinut]

I came across the martycube plans and they seem to have good reviews...

I've heard good things about the UM18-22 driver as well..... Not sure what the difference is compared to the RSS460?

So basically, choose a driver which I think I did.... find a plan.. which I think I did.

build the box, get and amp, connect the wires and good to go?

1. What are your plans for the use of a subwoofer? Music or Home Theater?

2. What is the size of your listening room?

3. Can you tolerate an 8 cubic foot cabinet ?

4. What low frequency are you aiming for?

Upon receipt of your answers, I will be able to give you recommendations. Please note that with a sealed enclosure, you won't be able to obtain a frequency response as low as with a vented box of a bigger size.

 

[lovinthehd]

With the Marty Cube and quite a few ported/vented designs, a protective high pass filter below tuning is recommended and you need either separate dsp (such as a miniDSP 2x4HD) or an amp with built in dsp like the Dayton models you listed that have such. Personally I prefer a rack style amp rather than a plate amp, makes the box easier to build and not having the amp in that environment (of the sub itself) for reliability. Popular amps for this are various pro-amps, the Behringer iNuke DSP series being quite popular and the least expensive (which you probably saw with the Marty Cube threads),offerings from Crown and QSC with similar dsp capability cost more than the Behringer.

While a low tuned ported box can take advantage of efficiency above tuning frequency, it drops off rapidly below it and multiple sealed subs can actually do better due shallower roll-off in combination with room reinforcement (but means likely at least four before any advantage). Just depends how low you really want to go and at what spl (i.e. your spl and extension goals) and how many subs you want . For two subs I'd go ported/vented.

You have a fairly large room at 13 x 35 feet (ceiling height is what, 8 feet?) for an estimated 3640 cuft...is it a sealed room or open to others? Works on total volume available. IIRC the advantage of the UM18 is power handling and lower extension but I'd have to review (this driver is used by Seaton in the F18). As to music/movies, thought this system was for both? (echoing Verdinut's questions but he may have missed your room size from your OP).

 

[moves]

1. What are your plans for the use of a subwoofer? Mainly HT. I will obviously try them with music but my mains have pretty good bass.

2. What is the size of your listening room? It is not a perfect rectangle but close. I'll describe it the best way I can. It will help by looking at some pics first:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15461321@N04/albums/72157696965700761

The front wall is 15 feet into the cove area that you see. That cove is 5 feet long and 1.5 feet deep. The ceiling is 7.3 inches.

The bar are is 12 feet deep and 10.5 feet wide.

The back area that is open is 16 feet long and 16 feet wide.

It's big. I may hang a curtain or do some kind of diffusion behind the couch area to cut down on the length...

I do have a umik but haven't set it up with REW yet.


3. Can you tolerate an 8 cubic foot cabinet ? Yes X 2... likely 9 CF.

4. What low frequency are you aiming for? I've read a bit on the marty boxes and the the large and the mini are recommended to tune to 17 and 18 Hz for stability and safety. I guess some movies dig down to 20hz at times and it would be nice to reproduce this when needed.

Upon receipt of your answers, I will be able to give you recommendations. Please note that with a sealed enclosure, you won't be able to obtain a frequency response as low as with a vented box of a bigger size.

Thanks so much for your input.

Attila

 

[moves]

With the Marty Cube and quite a few ported/vented designs, a protective high pass filter below tuning is recommended and you need either separate dsp (such as a miniDSP 2x4HD) or an amp with built in dsp like the Dayton models you listed that have such. Personally I prefer a rack style amp rather than a plate amp, makes the box easier to build and not having the amp in that environment (of the sub itself) for reliability. Popular amps for this are various pro-amps, the Behringer iNuke DSP series being quite popular and the least expensive (which you probably saw with the Marty Cube threads),offerings from Crown and QSC with similar dsp capability cost more than the Behringer.

While a low tuned ported box can take advantage of efficiency above tuning frequency, it drops off rapidly below it and multiple sealed subs can actually do better due shallower roll-off in combination with room reinforcement (but means likely at least four before any advantage). Just depends how low you really want to go and at what spl (i.e. your spl and extension goals) and how many subs you want . For two subs I'd go ported/vented.

You have a fairly large room at 13 x 35 feet (ceiling height is what, 8 feet?) for an estimated 3640 cuft...is it a sealed room or open to others? Works on total volume available. IIRC the advantage of the UM18 is power handling and lower extension but I'd have to review (this driver is used by Seaton in the F18). As to music/movies, thought this system was for both? (echoing Verdinut's questions but he may have missed your room size from your OP).

Thanks so much for your input as well. Interesting fact about the Seaton.... very cool indeed.... The system is for both but I think mainly for HT.... It would be nice as well for music but my mains are descent in the low end. I am just wondering if the RSS460 would be just as heavy as the UM18 under reference or just a tad lower than reference... Wondering if it would be that noticeable... I am guessing not but who knows...

Ceiling is 7.3 feet cause of the drop ceiling.

There are some openings such as the bar and the stairs going up at the very back corner but i don't think that's an issue as it's 35feetish away..

The amp will need DSP as it will help A LOT with programming it to better suit the room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks so much for your input as well. Interesting fact about the Seaton.... very cool indeed.... The system is for both but I think mainly for HT.... It would be nice as well for music but my mains are descent in the low end. I am just wondering if the RSS460 would be just as heavy as the UM18 under reference or just a tad lower than reference... Wondering if it would be that noticeable... I am guessing not but who knows...

Ceiling is 7.3 feet cause of the drop ceiling.

There are some openings such as the bar and the stairs going up at the very back corner but i don't think that's an issue as it's 35feetish away..

The amp will need DSP as it will help A LOT with programming it to better suit the room.

Just in case it hasn't been pointed out or if you haven't seen it, an article on room volume/subs https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

What do you mean by "heavy"? I wouldn't worry too much with quality subs about music vs ht use, more about how low and loud you want rather than what you're listening to. A few Hz or dB won't make a huge difference either. Not so much about distance like a speaker, but the volume of air needed to be pressurized....depending on sub placement it is conceivable that the bass can be very strong 35 ft away and not so hot at your listening position.

 

[lovinthehd]

An article on sub-schroeder frequencies and rooms might also help a bit.

 

[moves]

Just in case it hasn't been pointed out or if you haven't seen it, an article on room volume/subs https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

What do you mean by "heavy"? I wouldn't worry too much with quality subs about music vs ht use, more about how low and loud you want rather than what you're listening to. A few Hz or dB won't make a huge difference either. Not so much about distance like a speaker, but the volume of air needed to be pressurized....depending on sub placement it is conceivable that the bass can be very strong 35 ft away and not so hot at your listening position.

Yes makes sense... I forget exactly how long but a low frequency wave length is a long way.... That's why I was thinking of setting up either diffusors or absorption behind the couch.

By heavy I mean deep.

 

[Verdinut]

Thanks so much for your input as well. Interesting fact about the Seaton.... very cool indeed.... The system is for both but I think mainly for HT.... It would be nice as well for music but my mains are descent in the low end. I am just wondering if the RSS460 would be just as heavy as the UM18 under reference or just a tad lower than reference... Wondering if it would be that noticeable... I am guessing not but who knows...

Ceiling is 7.3 feet cause of the drop ceiling.

There are some openings such as the bar and the stairs going up at the very back corner but i don't think that's an issue as it's 35feetish away..

The amp will need DSP as it will help A LOT with programming it to better suit the room.

The RSS460 is 7.4dB more sensitive than the UM-18 but the Ultimax with a capable powerful amp can displace a lot more air, with it's xmax of almost double that of the 460. It also goes lower and would have a smoother response.

In a 8 cf vented box, with the UM18-22, you could get an F3 at 18Hz, with 9 cf it would go slightly lower but not that noticeable. However, in a 12 cf enclosure, you could get an F3 at 15Hz. Personally, I would go with the Ultimax 18-22. The Dayton SPA1200DSP amp seems to be an excellent match should you desire to use a plate amp to drive it, but it would cost you more than a Behringer or a Crown . Please note that those box volumes are net dimensions, you have to deduct the volume of the three 4" tuning pipes, the bracing and the space taken by the sub as well.

Taking into account the size of your room, you probably would get better results with two of them. Nothing prevents you from starting by building one and, after a while, see for yourself if a second one is needed.

 

[moves]

The RSS460 is 7.4dB more sensitive than the UM-18 but the Ultimax with a capable powerful amp can displace a lot more air, with it's xmax of almost double that of the 460. It also goes lower and would have a smoother response.

In a 8 cf vented box, with the UM18-22, you could get an F3 at 18Hz, with 9 cf it would go slightly lower but not that noticeable. However, in a 12 cf enclosure, you could get an F3 at 15Hz. Personally, I would go with the Ultimax 18-22. The Dayton SPA1200DSP amp seems to be an excellent match should you desire to use a plate amp to drive it, but it would cost you more than a Behringer or a Crown . Please note that those box volumes are net dimensions, you have to deduct the volume of the three 4" tuning pipes, the bracing and the space taken by the sub as well.

Taking into account the size of your room, you probably would get better results with two of them. Nothing prevents you from starting by building one and, after a while, see for yourself if a second one is needed.

If I were to make one, I would probably use the mini Marty as the large one is just huge.... 2 feet wide and 4 feet tall.... crazy....

I was interested in the external amp that was suggested because I think it would be easier to access.. i.e. not behind the sub. I was thinking of this one... I would also look into the other amps suggested... Does the crown come with the DSP?

https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/dayton-audio-sa1000/

 

[moves]

Just wondering..... the UM18-22 woofer is rated for 1000W.... Why would someone use an Inuke 6000DSP with 6000 watts per channel? I see people upgrading from the 3000 to the 6000DSP.... I am missing something here...

 

[lovinthehd]

FYI uually better information available at Dayton's retail arm of parts-express.com https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mountable--300-811

Brief look at the manual description I see that it has a subsonic (high pass) filter at 18hz (-3dB/Q=.8 spec) but no indication of user adjustability. It also has a fixed high pass filter for speakers at 80hz available and again no indication of adjustability.

You have to take the style of watt advertising by Behringer, and even their spec, with a big grain of salt. It's not supposed to be 6000W per channel but some combined output of 2 channels (2x3000) at low impedance (and is at what THD or frequency?). Look for bench test for better spec. It's quite a bit lower for a spec of low THD and low frequencies. Here's the top result in my brief search (and it's the non-dsp so likely slightly more powerful) https://forum.speakerplans.com/behringer-inuke-nu6000-vs-kam-kxd7200-bench-tested_topic69202.html

ps Personally I use Crown XLS amps and miniDSP. Verdinut uses QSC (and don't remember if on-board dsp or separate) amps. There are better sub amps like Powersoft but more expensive. To a great extent you get what you pay for. Also aesthetics and fan noise as other considerations beyond spec/reliability.

 

[everettT]

Just wondering..... the UM18-22 woofer is rated for 1000W.... Why would someone use an Inuke 6000DSP with 6000 watts per channel? I see people upgrading from the 3000 to the 6000DSP.... I am missing something here...

That driver can take more than that if needed. Mark uses 2400 on a single sub. EQing takes a lot power to get to 10hz in room from a sealed sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

Total power needed depends partially on impedance, how you wire your sub drivers (for dual coils), box, and maybe other subs....hard to say why some might prefer the 6000 over two 3000s (which basically is what the 6000 is, but not bridgeable as it is already).

 

[Verdinut]

If I were to make one, I would probably use the mini Marty as the large one is just huge.... 2 feet wide and 4 feet tall.... crazy....

I was interested in the external amp that was suggested because I think it would be easier to access.. i.e. not behind the sub. I was thinking of this one... I would also look into the other amps suggested... Does the crown come with the DSP?

https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/dayton-audio-sa1000/

The Crown XLS 1502 costs about the same as the Dayton and comes with a DSP that is more of a low pass filter type than the typical full range DSP, and is rated at 1550 watts when bridged for a 4 ohm load. The Dayton SA1000 has no DSP but only a parametric EQ circuit, and is not as powerful. Also, I would definitely opt for the Crown rather than a Behringer because of it's better reliability, but you would need a separate DSP.

Studio Economik in Montreal carries the Crown line and you can probably negotiate a better price with them. They have a good reputation:

http://www.economik.com/crown/xls-1502/

 

[lovinthehd]

The Crown XLS 1502 costs about the same as the Dayton but comes with a DSP and is rated at 1500 watts when bridged for a 4 ohm load. The Dayton SA1000 has no DSP but only a parametric EQ circuit, and is not as powerful. Also, I would definitely opt for the Crown rather than a Behringer because of it's better reliability.

Studio Economik in Montreal carries the Crown line and you can probably negotiate a better price with them. They have a good reputation:

http://www.economik.com/crown/xls-1502/

That Crown model does not come with the dsp he needs, though, need to step up the Crown ladder to get that. The dsp in the XLS Drive Core series is more about a crossover for pro use of different monitor/bass bin, particularly no eq and no high pass filter low enough for his needs. The dsp in the Behringer is quite good, though fwiw. The Crown XLS amps are what I use, I have several 1500s (mine are first generation, second gen, i.e. xx02, has different appearance, adjustable sensitivity, adjustable panel light, and a trigger of sorts but same amp section and dsp).

 

[Verdinut]

If I were to make one, I would probably use the mini Marty as the large one is just huge.... 2 feet wide and 4 feet tall.... crazy....

I was interested in the external amp that was suggested because I think it would be easier to access.. i.e. not behind the sub. I was thinking of this one... I would also look into the other amps suggested... Does the crown come with the DSP?

https://solen.ca/products/electronics/subwoofer-amplifiers/dayton-audio-sa1000/

I understand that this mini Marty is a sealed box. What is it's approximate net internal volume? With your answer, I should be in a position to tell you how low the UM18-22 will reach.

 

[Verdinut]

That Crown model does not come with the dsp he needs, though, need to step up the Crown ladder to get that. The dsp in the XLS Drive Core series is more about a crossover for pro use of different monitor/bass bin, particularly no eq and no high pass filter low enough for his needs. The dsp in the Behringer is quite good, though fwiw. The Crown XLS amps are what I use, I have several 1500s (mine are first generation, second gen, i.e. xx02, has different appearance, adjustable sensitivity, adjustable panel light, and a trigger of sorts but same amp section and dsp).

If someone wanted a DSP to go with the Crown XLS 1502 for instance, could a miniDSP do the job with those subwoofer frequencies?