The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Out-Of-Phase]

Don't be sorry. Which amp you use is your choice. My opinion doesn't count if you don't want it to.

It’s just that I’m a former audiophile that actually wanted to believe that the Crown amp was not as good as a Class A/AB audiophile amp. But the Crown amp proved itself over and over.

 

[TechHDS]

My current Yamaha/ATI Separates

Top of the morning ADTG!! Very sweet setup!

Mike

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Don't be sorry. Which amp you use is your choice. My opinion doesn't count if you don't want it to.

Let me challenge you Mr. Robinson. Purchase a Crown XLS Series amp (with a return policy of course) and use it for two weeks with the music and speakers of your choice.

I'll bet at the end of those two weeks of intense listening, you'll not only keep that 10 lb Crown amp, but you'll also want to sell off one of those older 'dinosaur' amps of yours you speak of. Deal?

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-2502

 

[Irvrobinson]

Let me challenge you Mr. Robinson. Purchase a Crown XLS Series amp (with a return policy of course) and use it for two weeks with the music and speakers of your choice.

I'll bet at the end of those two weeks of intense listening, you'll not only keep that 10 lb Crown amp, but you'll also want to sell off one of those older 'dinosaur' amps of yours you speak of. Deal?

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-2502

Not a chance. Both amps are less than ten years old, and the best the Crown could do is sound just as good. So I don't see the win. Anyway, the ATI AT3005 is so heavy that the thought of moving it and packing it up gives me groin pains.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Well, at least the Crown(s) would be easier on your back.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well, at least the Crown(s) would be easier on your back.

And that and cost are the two primary advantages, assuming I was in the market, which I'm not, so cost isn't a factor. And there's still my dislike of the technical solution to an already solved problem.

 

[Mikado463]

And that and cost are the two primary advantages, assuming I was in the market, which I'm not, so cost isn't a factor. And there's still my dislike of the technical solution to an already solved problem.

agreed as well, yet it would be fun to do a real side by side compare with a real good system

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

agreed as well, yet it would be fun to do a real side by side compare with a real good system

As long as the 'real side by side compare' was done double-blind and volume level matched, otherwise, forget it. A sighted listener's expectation bias would produce false results.

 

[Mikado463]

As long as the 'real side by side compare' was done double-blind and volume level matched, otherwise, forget it. A sighted listener's expectation bias would produce false results.

no problem, I'm blind in one and can't see out of the other ........

 

[Irvrobinson]

As long as the 'real side by side compare' was done double-blind and volume level matched, otherwise, forget it. A sighted listener's expectation bias would produce false results.

As my friend Swerd has pointed out, you would need a rather large sample size for tests like this anyway.

There's also Irv's first law of blind audio testing: If you can't hear a difference in sighted tests, blind tests are a waste of time.

I've never been able to hear differences between well-designed and properly functioning solid state amplifiers (or preamplifiers) in short-term comparison testing, sighted or otherwise. Where I discern differences has only been WRT listener fatigue over multiple long sessions. And yes that isn't scientific, and yes I can't prove it in direct comparisons, but that's how I make amplifier buying decisions (and retention decisions). Anyone is welcome to ignore me. Class D amps with metal dome tweeters that have an ultra-sonic peak (like those in my speakers) make me wonder about long-term effects, and if I'm worrying about some factor in a market with a zillion choices I'm not buying one I'm worrying about. And that's the name of that tune. ;-)

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

As my friend Swerd has pointed out, you would need a rather large sample size for tests like this anyway.

There's also Irv's first law of blind audio testing: If you can't hear a difference in sighted tests, blind tests are a waste of time.

I've never been able to hear differences between well-designed and properly functioning solid state amplifiers (or preamplifiers) in short-term comparison testing, sighted or otherwise. Where I discern differences has only been WRT listener fatigue over multiple long sessions. And yes that isn't scientific, and yes I can't prove it in direct comparisons, but that's how I make amplifier buying decisions (and retention decisions). Anyone is welcome to ignore me. Class D amps with metal dome tweeters that have an ultra-sonic peak (like those in my speakers) make me wonder about long-term effects, and if I'm worrying about some factor in a market with a zillion choices I'm not buying one I'm worrying about. And that's the name of that tune. ;-)

My old (well known name brand) audiophile power amp (I sold it) sounded clean and transparent.
My (well known name brand) AVR sounds clean and transparent.
My (well known name brand) 2-channel stereo receiver sounds clean and transparent.
My (well known name brand) Class D power amp sounds clean and transparent.

I don't know, I guess my ears aren't that great because I can't hear the difference in any of them. But that makes me happy because I saved $27,000.00 by not purchasing dual-mono audiophile power amps with large meters with a bluish LED glow and believing every time I turn them on they sound better. (Bet they don't )

 

[Irvrobinson]

I saved $27,000.00 by not purchasing dual-mono audiophile power amps with large meters with a bluish LED glow and believing every time I turn them on they sound better.

Blue meters = McIntosh, and I can't abide by paying for useless output transformers in solid state amps, and I don't care if they sound just as good.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Blue meters = McIntosh, and I can't abide by paying for useless output transformers in solid state amps, and I don't care if they sound just as good.

I went to high school with a guy who sold McIntosh products after college. He told me to always buy McIntosh over any mid-fi stereo because you can always sell it for almost the same price that you paid for it originally. He was probably right. They (McIntosh) do seem to hold their resale value well in the audiophile market.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Both amps are less than ten years old...

I just found a digital copy of the original sales receipt for my Denon AVP-A1HDCI on my work hard drive. I paid $5,800 for it in August of 2010 (brand new from local store, so $1,700 discount).

That means it was only 8 years old when it malfunctioned.

Complexity in electronics is bad.

My AT3005 is 8 YO, my AT2005 is 6YO.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I just found a digital copy of the original sales receipt for my Denon AVP-A1HDCI on my work hard drive. I paid $5,800 for it in August of 2010 (brand new from local store, so $1,700 discount).

That means it was only 8 years old when it malfunctioned.

Complexity in electronics is bad.

My AT3005 is 8 YO, my AT2005 is 6YO.

That makes me leery of my AVR-X4400H.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That makes me leery of my AVR-X4000H.

Well, the good news is that your X4400 is probably not even close to being as complex as the AVP-A1HDCI.

IMO, it doesn't matter if it's assembled in Japan by the best technicians using the best parts when it is that complex and extremely overcrowded - everything horseshoed inside a box that is a little bigger than your X4400! Hardly any room for the parts to breathe.

IMO, cramming a bunch of electronics into tight spaces isn't exactly great engineering.

Going from 5.1Ch to 13.1Ch doesn't give me a great feeling either.

So much for expensive Separates pre-pro lasting longer than AVR.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

It's really too bad what happened to your Denon Professional preamp. I'm wondering if anyone else out there with the same model as yours has had this issue. I've always respected the Denon product line, but I think this creates a black eye on their engineering and customer service.

With my 4400H, I'll just have to see how it goes I guess. I'll make sure that the AVR has plenty of breathing space and stays cool. I do know that heat kills components over time.

 

[rbdan]

I have a question for all you audioholics.

I have a Denon 4520 without HDMI 2.0 so I picked up a Denon AVR-X3400H. Unfortunately it just sounded "weak/thin". Even my wife asked me "Why does it sound like satellite radio?".

I ran Audyssey multiple times without any real change in the sound. I was going to get an external amp to see if that helped but everyone over on AVSforum told me that unless I was pushing the internal amps to their limit an external amp would not change the sound. "All amps sound the same"

I originally had a Denon 4800 before my 4520, they are both very powerful sounding receivers but the 3400 just did not sound as good to me at all. I don't know if it is due to the internal amps or DACs or DSPs or AL32 Processing or ?.

I asked a "pro/reseller" over on another site "If it wasn't the difference in the internal amps, what technical feature is causing the difference, so I can know what to look for?" he replied "Your comparing a flagship model to a mid-level model, what did you expect?" Obviously that didn't help me.

I wish it was due to the amps because I would love to pick up a relatively cheap receiver and use a 3 or 5 channel external amp. That way it wouldn't be as painful upgrading in the future.

So I picked up an HDFury Vertex to be able to wait until HDMI 2.1 was built in to receivers and then I would get another "flagship" receiver.

I have a pretty simple setup compared to most here.

Denon 4520, B&W 685 (L/R),B&W HTM62 (Center),B&W M1(Surrounds x 2) and a Klipsch KSW 15 sub.

I would love some feedback from all you guys on what would cause such a significant sound difference.

Thanks
Dan

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a question for all you audioholics.

I have a Denon 4520 without HDMI 2.0 so I picked up a Denon AVR-X3400H. Unfortunately it just sounded "weak/thin". Even my wife asked me "Why does it sound like satellite radio?".

I ran Audyssey multiple times without any real change in the sound. I was going to get an external amp to see if that helped but everyone over on AVSforum told me that unless I was pushing the internal amps to their limit an external amp would not change the sound. "All amps sound the same"

I originally had a Denon 4800 before my 4520, they are both very powerful sounding receivers but the 3400 just did not sound as good to me at all. I don't know if it is due to the internal amps or DACs or DSPs or AL32 Processing or ?.

I asked a "pro/reseller" over on another site "If it wasn't the difference in the internal amps, what technical feature is causing the difference, so I can know what to look for?" he replied "Your comparing a flagship model to a mid-level model, what did you expect?" Obviously that didn't help me.

I wish it was due to the amps because I would love to pick up a relatively cheap receiver and use a 3 or 5 channel external amp. That way it wouldn't be as painful upgrading in the future.

So I picked up an HDFury Vertex to be able to wait until HDMI 2.1 was built in to receivers and then I would get another "flagship" receiver.

I have a pretty simple setup compared to most here.

Denon 4520, B&W 685 (L/R),B&W HTM62 (Center),B&W M1(Surrounds x 2) and a Klipsch KSW 15 sub.

I would love some feedback from all you guys on what would cause such a significant sound difference.

Thanks
Dan

Have a 4520 myself but nothing newer. Just what modes did you compare? Was it A/B or you just relying on a sighted expectation bias type of comparison using sonic memory? The amps are not all that different so wouldn't think that's the difference either unless the 4520 is better with a lower impedance load. The DSP is similar but different options. I have an older Denon 3808 with "only" AL24 and can't say I notice any difference to AL32 in the 4520.

 

[rbdan]

Have a 4520 myself but nothing newer. Just what modes did you compare? Was it A/B or you just relying on a sighted expectation bias type of comparison using sonic memory? The amps are not all that different so wouldn't think that's the difference either unless the 4520 is better with a lower impedance load. The DSP is similar but different options. I have an older Denon 3808 with "only" AL24 and can't say I notice any difference to AL32 in the 4520.

Hey LovinTheHD,

After I finished hooking up the 3400, we sat down with a glass of wine and started listening to some music. At that point I don't know if my wife even knew what I had done. I immediately noticed a difference and thought to myself "Chillout, you will get used to the new sound". After 40 minutes or so it was grating on my nerves and that is when my wife made her remark about satellite radio. It would have to be a pretty significant difference for my wife to notice and care enough to say anything! So, I re-ran Audyssey multiple times and swapped the cables to compare over and over again.

What mode? - Generally I listen to music with Audyssey flat and dynamic EQ on so that is what I set both receivers to when comparing.

Dan