The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Irvrobinson]

If someone could put the internals of these pro amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha) into a sexy audiophile amp case, I bet nobody could hear the difference.

Okay, sell your ATIs and let us know.

 

[PENG]

Okay, sell your ATIs and let us know.

No, sell the guts to you for spare parts, but keep the chassis for the guts of the QSC DCA amp. Everything should fit nicely in the much larger box, just run some wires, solder them up to the appropriate connectors; and he'll get the fully balanced even harmonics free (virtually) sound. It's got to be done by his wife without him knowing though, otherwise it won't work.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, sell the guts to you for spare parts, but keep the chassis for the guts of the QSC DCA amp. Everything should fit nicely in the much larger box, just run some wires, solder them up to the appropriate connectors; and he'll get the fully balanced even harmonics free (virtually) sound. It's got to be done by his wife without him knowing though, otherwise it won't work.

I’m not skillful enough.

All these companies selling amps has me wondering what is really under the hood.

Look at the Legacy Audio and Lyngdorf class-D Amps and others like them.

I look at them and can’t help wondering if they are just pro amps underneath?

I think Outlaw Audio Model 2200 Monoblock (200W/300W- 8/4 ohm) is neat. $379 each if buying one, $268 each if buying 7 amps. Could someone put the internals of this amp in a Levinson, Krell, Legacy, McIntosh, Lexicon body and sell for $1,000 each?

But for 300-1000WPC, the pro amps inside a Legacy Audio, Moon Audio, etc., seems like a good business idea. Put a $400 Crown into an audiophile case and sell for $1200?

 

[Verdinut]

I’m not skillful enough.

But for 300-1000WPC, the pro amps inside a Legacy Audio, Moon Audio, etc., seems like a good business idea. Put a $400 Crown into an audiophile case and sell for $1200?

No, $1200 is not enough! You probably would sell more if it's more expensive!

 

[KEW]

No, $1200 is not enough! They probably would sell more if it's more expensive!

Agreed!
You have to understand the mindset of the buyers of this particular niche product.
"Trying to be price-competitive is what those other companies do, we just do what it takes to get the best sound, and only after we have accomplished that do we even look at the dollars! A truly discerning music-lover, such as yourself, understands the lunacy of letting a budget constrain the joy of excellent sound quality when playing your music."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, $1200 is not enough! You probably would sell more if it's more expensive!

Fine. Take a $400 Crown and sell for $1,800 like the Legacy 325/650w Stereo amp.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/legacy-audio-powerbloc2-and-powerbloc4-amplifiers-review-specs

 

[Irvrobinson]

I’m not skillful enough.

All these companies selling amps has me wondering what is really under the hood.

Look at the Legacy Audio and Lyngdorf class-D Amps and others like them.

I look at them and can’t help wondering if they are just pro amps underneath?

I think Outlaw Audio Model 2200 Monoblock (200W/300W- 8/4 ohm) is neat. $379 each if buying one, $268 each if buying 7 amps. Could someone put the internals of this amp in a Levinson, Krell, Legacy, McIntosh, Lexicon body and sell for $1,000 each?

But for 300-1000WPC, the pro amps inside a Legacy Audio, Moon Audio, etc., seems like a good business idea. Put a $400 Crown into an audiophile case and sell for $1200?

I don't like Class D audio amplifiers for home use. You can't even measure them properly without a low-pass filter. This is my favorite article on how Class D amps work:

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274757


And if you're not inclined to read it thoroughly, here's my favorite excerpt:

Audio Performance Measurement
Audio measuring equipment with an AES17 brick wall filter, such as the Audio Precision AP2, are necessary. However a classic audio analyzer like the HP8903B can be used with appropriate pre-stage low pass filter is applied. The important consideration here is that the output signal of a Class D amplifier still contains substantial amount of switching frequency carrier on its waveform, which causes a wrong reading, and those analyzers might not be immune enough to the carrier leak from a Class D amplifier. Figure 9 shows an example of a filter.

I would like lighter and more efficient amps too, but high frequency junk in my analog audio stream is not welcome, not when cleaner alternatives are available.

 

[panteragstk]

I don't like Class D audio amplifiers for home use. You can't even measure them properly without a low-pass filter. This is my favorite article on how Class D amps work:

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274757


And if you're not inclined to read it thoroughly, here's my favorite excerpt:

Audio Performance Measurement
Audio measuring equipment with an AES17 brick wall filter, such as the Audio Precision AP2, are necessary. However a classic audio analyzer like the HP8903B can be used with appropriate pre-stage low pass filter is applied. The important consideration here is that the output signal of a Class D amplifier still contains substantial amount of switching frequency carrier on its waveform, which causes a wrong reading, and those analyzers might not be immune enough to the carrier leak from a Class D amplifier. Figure 9 shows an example of a filter.

I would lighter and more efficient amps too, but high frequency junk in my analog audio stream is not welcome, not when cleaner alternatives are available.

I had thought the class D amps like the ones used in Pioneer receivers or ATIs newer amps had improved these deficiencies considerably? I'll have to see if I can find some measurements for the newer class D amps out there.

I use a pro class d in my setup, but it's on sub duty only.

EDIT: didn't take long.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review-test-bench

 

[Irvrobinson]

I had thought the class D amps like the ones used in Pioneer receivers or ATIs newer amps had improved these deficiencies considerably? I'll have to see if I can find some measurements for the newer class D amps out there.

I use a pro class d in my setup, but it's on sub duty only.

EDIT: didn't take long.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review-test-bench

Not true. Note in the measurements that they used a 24KHz low-pass filter. There's still ultrasonic junk being passed into the analog outputs.

Edit: The Hypex specifications for the NCore amps that ATI uses still specifies AES17 filters just like the article talks about. See page six of the NC500MP_2 spec sheet at:

https://www.hypex.nl/product/nc500mp-oem/75#tab_downloads

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The new dolby upmixer is actually pretty cool.

I just tried the “Surround Decoder” —> “Dolby Surround” DSP Mode for 2Ch TV source on my CX-A5100.

The center dialogue seems very discrete for a DSP Mode. I was very impressed.

I will definitely use the Dolby Surround Mode for 2Ch movie/TV sources.

 

[panteragstk]

Not true. Note in the measurements that they used a 24KHz low-pass filter. There's still ultrasonic junk being passed into the analog outputs.

Edit: The Hypex specifications for the NCore amps that ATI uses still specifies AES17 filters just like the article talks about. See page six of the NC500MP_2 spec sheet at:

https://www.hypex.nl/product/nc500mp-oem/75#tab_downloads

Good to know. You guys know way more about this than I do (obviously) so I'll stick with my plan to get a 3ch monolith amp if I decide to upgrade.

 

[panteragstk]

I just tried the “Surround Decoder” —> “Dolby Surround” DSP Mode for 2Ch TV source on my CX-A5100.

The center dialogue seems very discrete for a DSP Mode. I was very impressed.

I will definitely use the Dolby Surround Mode for 2Ch movie/TV sources.

I was surprised too. I use it for movies just to get some height info in my room. I haven't used it in the theater for 2ch yet, just in the living room.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I don't like Class D audio amplifiers for home use. You can't even measure them properly without a low-pass filter. This is my favorite article on how Class D amps work:

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274757


And if you're not inclined to read it thoroughly, here's my favorite excerpt:

Audio Performance Measurement
Audio measuring equipment with an AES17 brick wall filter, such as the Audio Precision AP2, are necessary. However a classic audio analyzer like the HP8903B can be used with appropriate pre-stage low pass filter is applied. The important consideration here is that the output signal of a Class D amplifier still contains substantial amount of switching frequency carrier on its waveform, which causes a wrong reading, and those analyzers might not be immune enough to the carrier leak from a Class D amplifier. Figure 9 shows an example of a filter.

I would lighter and more efficient amps too, but high frequency junk in my analog audio stream is not welcome, not when cleaner alternatives are available.

But how much of that ‘junk’ can you actually hear in the music?

 

[Irvrobinson]

But how much of that ‘junk’ can you actually hear in the music?

I don't know. While I've been associated with using QSC and Crown amps in my wife's bands, I've never used one in any of my audio systems. I heard them used countless times to play CDs during breaks, but that was through PA speakers. (JBL or QSC.) This is about my expressing a preference insofar as I make home audio buying decisions. If you believe the artifacts from Class D amps are inaudible and don't affect transparency, I'm not going to tell you that's it's a bad buying decision to use them, just that I choose not to. Frankly, I wish I didn't have any digital to analog conversions anywhere in my audio signal path, and still get CD-quality sound and convenience, but that's not practical so I buy all digital recordings. There's no such thing as a free lunch when going between the digital and analog domains, but fortunately ADC/DAC technology advances have made them very low-cost lunches. I'm not so sure about Class D amplifiers. That lunch looks free, but then I see they're serving beets and brussel sprouts.

 

[M Code]

One can debate the merits and sonics of Class A-B vs. Class D amplifiers...
But Class D has already won the marketing challenges for the categories of computers, HD displays, sound bars, OE 12v auto, 12V aftermarket, HT subwoofers...The winning marketing benefit equation for Class D is simple to understand:

• Significantly higher power
• Less expensive to build
• Runs cooler
• Smaller package/footprint

The other part of the comparison is does Class A-B sound better than Class D...
For that conclusion each listener needs to decide for himself..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I don't know. While I've been associated with using QSC and Crown amps in my wife's bands, I've never used one in any of my audio systems. I heard them used countless times to play CDs during breaks, but that was through PA speakers. (JBL or QSC.) This is about my expressing a preference insofar as I make home audio buying decisions. If you believe the artifacts from Class D amps are inaudible and don't affect transparency, I'm not going to tell you that's it's a bad buying decision to use them, just that I choose not to. Frankly, I wish I didn't have any digital to analog conversions anywhere in my audio signal path, and still get CD-quality sound and convenience, but that's not practical so I buy all digital recordings. There's no such thing as a free lunch when going between the digital and analog domains, but fortunately ADC/DAC technology advances have made them very low-cost lunches. I'm not so sure about Class D amplifiers. That lunch looks free, but then I see they're serving beets and brussel sprouts.

I own the Crown XLS Series 2502. I have used it extensively for Jazz and Classical music with what I consider neutral or flat speakers. In the time I’ve owned it I have tried my best to hear any negative artifacts and have heard none. I have wanted to hear anything that would point to the amp as being an inferior PA amp and not an audio amp and have come up empty. Sorry.

 

[PENG]

Frankly, I wish I didn't have any digital to analog conversions anywhere in my audio signal path, and still get CD-quality sound and convenience, but that's not practical so I buy all digital recordings.

You may want to try the Lyngdorf amps, they claimed no middle man, no D-A, pure digital, but obviously they still need to filter the output signal before it hits the speakers.
http://lyngdorf.com/tdai-2170/

 

[Irvrobinson]

I own the Crown XLS Series 2502. I have used it extensively for Jazz and Classical music with what I consider neutral or flat speakers. In the time I’ve owned it I have tried my best to hear any negative artifacts and have heard none. I have wanted to hear anything that would point to the amp as being an inferior PA amp and not an audio amp and have come up empty. Sorry.

Don't be sorry. Which amp you use is your choice. My opinion doesn't count if you don't want it to.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You may want to try the Lyngdorf amps, they claimed no middle man, no D-A, pure digital, but obviously they still need to filter the output signal before it hits the speakers.
http://lyngdorf.com/tdai-2170/

I'm fine with the amps I have. Old fashioned, over-weight or under-powered Class AB dinosaurs. I suppose just like me!

 

[M Code]

You may want to try the Lyngdorf amps, they claimed no middle man, no D-A, pure digital, but obviously they still need to filter the output signal before it hits the speakers.
http://lyngdorf.com/tdai-2170/

Not really new..
This design approach(digital input to digital output) was 1st introduced > 12 years ago by Harman/Kardon in their Digital Path Receivers. Another interesting point about the DPR series, the amplifier output stage also had THX certification. Basically the amplifier's output stage worked like a DAC..

Just my $0.02...