The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

Do Separates (Preamps or Pre-pros + Amps) Sound Better Than AVRs in Direct/Bypass Modes?

  • Yes, Separates sound better than AVRs

    Votes: 40 47.6%
  • No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same

    Votes: 22 26.2%
  • No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same when they are similar in price range

    Votes: 22 26.2%

  • Total voters
    84
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
System in Black: RBH SX-T2/R + Yamaha CX-A5100 + ATI AT2005 + ATI AT3005. :D

 
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Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Lucky guy.

Does ATI still make the ATI AT2005 and ATI AT3005 models?
 
R

rbdan

Audioholic Intern
Excellent discussion.

My question is somewhat related....

Every time I have replaced my AVR is due to video standards changing. Wayback when, I needed to upgrade to get S-Video then needed I HDMI on my receiver. Now I am needing to get HDMI 2.0 for 4K HDR.

Anyway the question:

Do you guys think that a new AVR or Pre/Pro needs HDMI 2.1 or will eARC do the trick?

Dan
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Thank you. They (AT2000 and AT3000 Series ) were not shown as current at their website.

It looks like the entry-level is now the AT1800 Series, RCA connectors, but no balanced input.

The AT4000 and AT6000 Series offers balanced input connectors.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Excellent discussion.

My question is somewhat related....

Every time I have replaced my AVR is due to video standards changing. Wayback when, I needed to upgrade to get S-Video then needed I HDMI on my receiver. Now I am needing to get HDMI 2.0 for 4K HDR.

Anyway the question:

Do you guys think that a new AVR or Pre/Pro needs HDMI 2.1 or will eARC do the trick?

Dan
You don't need it for 4k, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP2.2 will do. eARC is for audio.
 
R

rbdan

Audioholic Intern
You don't need it for 4k, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP2.2 will do. eARC is for audio.
True but the question really is:

Is it worth it to wait for an AVR with HDMI 2.1 or will one with 2.0 and eARC cover most if not all of my future needs?

My thought is that my future HDMI 2.1 TV can do the video switching and send the full bandwidth audio back to my HDMI 2.0 eARC receiver. Am I missing something?

I really want to get off this HDMI merry-go-round.

Dan
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Lucky guy.

Does ATI still make the ATI AT2005 and ATI AT3005 models?
The 2018 ATI dealer price list includes AT1802-1807, AT3002-3007, AT4002-4007, AT6002-6007, AT522-528, AT542-544.

The AT4002-4007 200WPC amps have the same prices as the AT3002-3007 300WPC amps.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
True but the question really is:

Is it worth it to wait for an AVR with HDMI 2.1 or will one with 2.0 and eARC cover most if not all of my future needs?

My thought is that my future HDMI 2.1 TV can do the video switching and send the full bandwidth audio back to my HDMI 2.0 eARC receiver. Am I missing something?

I really want to get off this HDMI merry-go-round.

Dan
This HDMI circus is sad, but unfortunately there is no way of knowing exactly what all the freaky future formats will be. Who's to say that 8K video is the last stop?

We know they will continue to change (to sell more products), so even HDMI 2.1 probably won't be the last.

If you can wait a few more months and the price isn't that much higher than the current HDMI 2.0 products, then I say just wait.

As for me, I don't even care about anything higher than 1080p and DTS-HD MA.

I have pretty much stepped off the merry-go-round a long time ago. :D
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
They (ATI) look like nice products. If I ever go back into separates, I will definitely consider the ATI line.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
They (ATI) look like nice products. If I ever go back into separates, I will definitely consider the ATI line.
I agree in that the ATI line is a good series of products. However, you can get pro amplifiers such as the QSC Digital Cinema Series of amps with balanced inputs for less, and with the same acoustical transparency.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
They (ATI) look like nice products. If I ever go back into separates, I will definitely consider the ATI line.
I like that ATI makes amps for so many companies (Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Outlaw, Monoprice, etc.).

One time I tried to convince RBH Sound that they should get into the amp-selling business like Outlaw and Monoprice and have ATI build and service their amps. I thought it would look cool to see the "RBH" logo on an ATI-made 200x7 amp. Too bad it didn't happen. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I agree in that the ATI line is a good series of products. However, you can get pro amplifiers such as the QSC Digital Cinema Series of amps with balanced inputs for less, and with the same acoustical transparency.
Yeah, I think ATI is getting closer and closer to becoming "statement" pieces with amps costing $8K. :D

We know ATI has made amps for Mark Levinson and Lexicon. ATI owns Theta Digital ($20K Pre-pros and $12K amps) and bought out DataSAT ($30K pre-pros). And ATI is supposed to be releasing their new ATP16 Pre-pro that may sell close to $9-10K.

So I think it's more about owning "statement" pieces than just simply having great sound, which the QSC, Crown, Yamaha pro amps can also do well.

I think all the high-end amps vs more economic consumer (Outlaw, Monolith) and pro amps and Pre-pro vs AVR are a lot more about making a statement than just simple sound quality.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
True but the question really is:

Is it worth it to wait for an AVR with HDMI 2.1 or will one with 2.0 and eARC cover most if not all of my future needs?

My thought is that my future HDMI 2.1 TV can do the video switching and send the full bandwidth audio back to my HDMI 2.0 eARC receiver. Am I missing something?

I really want to get off this HDMI merry-go-round.

Dan
That is correct, HDMI 2.0 receivers withe
True but the question really is:

Is it worth it to wait for an AVR with HDMI 2.1 or will one with 2.0 and eARC cover most if not all of my future needs?

My thought is that my future HDMI 2.1 TV can do the video switching and send the full bandwidth audio back to my HDMI 2.0 eARC receiver. Am I missing something?

I really want to get off this HDMI merry-go-round.

Dan
You are basically correct, but not all HDMI 2.0 receivers have or can have eARC. For example, some 2017, and even 2018 needs a firmware update to get eARC.

If you want to be sure, pick you favorite model and then do your research before buying. Or wait for the HDMI 2.1 receivers.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Even if you wait for 2.1 some other “necessary” feature will likely prevent 8k. LOL :). I’m happy with hdmi 2.0a and HDR10 and that is all my tv supports so I’m good for a long time. :)
 
R

rbdan

Audioholic Intern
Even if you wait for 2.1 some other “necessary” feature will likely prevent 8k. LOL :). I’m happy with hdmi 2.0a and HDR10 and that is all my tv supports so I’m good for a long time. :)
Yeah, you are probably right.

I picked up a HDFury Vertex to feed my Sony OLED Dolby Vision/HDR10 (HDMI 2.0a) and send an HDMI 1.4 audio signal to my Denon 4520. It's working for now, so I can probably wait for HDMI 2.1 in my next receiver.

Dan
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
I agree in that the ATI line is a good series of products. However, you can get pro amplifiers such as the QSC Digital Cinema Series of amps with balanced inputs for less, and with the same acoustical transparency.
Yes, excellent point. Crown XLS series too.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I agree in that the ATI line is a good series of products. However, you can get pro amplifiers such as the QSC Digital Cinema Series of amps with balanced inputs for less, and with the same acoustical transparency.
Maybe. Balanced inputs are not much of a factor in home systems. Fully balanced end-to-end systems, from the DACs through the power amps, without phase splitters in the analog path, interconnected with XLR cables, is what gives you the (theoretical) gain. I say theoretical because I can't tell the difference in short-term listening between my AT3000 (fully balanced) and my AT602 (unbalanced, with single-ended connections) in short-term comparisons within the AT602s power capabilities. The QSCs are full of protection circuitry that's all about making the amps foolproof in on-the-road sound reinforcement use (not transparency), filters (at least they're switchable),and gain controls that may or may not affect their transparency in long-term testing. I'd certainly consider them as bass/sub amps, but for the spectrum above 150Hz in a home audio music system I'd rather have an amp without so much electronic gunk in the signal path that's useless to me.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe. Balanced inputs are not much of a factor in home systems. Fully balanced end-to-end systems, from the DACs through the power amps, without phase splitters in the analog path, interconnected with XLR cables, is what gives you the (theoretical) gain. I say theoretical because I can't tell the difference in short-term listening between my AT3000 (fully balanced) and my AT602 (unbalanced, with single-ended connections) in short-term comparisons within the AT602s power capabilities. The QSCs are full of protection circuitry that's all about making the amps foolproof in on-the-road sound reinforcement use (not transparency),filters (at least they're switchable),and gain controls that may or may not affect their transparency in long-term testing. I'd certainly consider them as bass/sub amps, but for the spectrum above 150Hz in a home audio music system I'd rather have an amp without so much electronic gunk in the signal path that's useless to me.
If someone could put the internals of these pro amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha) into a sexy audiophile amp case, I bet nobody could hear the difference. :D

Heck, I bet that's what’s inside some of these audiophile amps (like Legacy). :D
 
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