Do audiophiles hear something we don't?

[PENG]

I’m in the wine business and probably should be on the other end of spectrum in this debate. When people listen to me analyzing wine, they always think I’m full of sh… However, when I ask someone who is as good as I am whether he can detect a certain fragrance, the answer is almost always a positive one.

Furthermore, when I provide a substance that gives of that same fragrance and ask the distrusting novice if he/she can detect it after that, more often than not, they can (like a certain type of plum for the Merlot, passion fruit for the Australian Chardonnay, lychee for the Gewurtztraminer).

So it has to do with learning to detect. But when I have someone spouting nonsense like the wine smells like his granny when she is sad, I just wanna puke.

To expand on the subject even further, I had a lab at my convenience to confirm my findings. If I say volatile, the machine says volatile. If I say banana, the machine says banana (in fact it is isoamyl-acetate). If I say contact with lees, the wine maker says contact with lees and so on.

So, even if my description may sound odd to someone who just dropped in on the whole wine scene (like your newsreporter), I know what I’m saying and why I’m saying it. And there is still a huge difference between what I say and all the subjective nonsense you can hear about wines.

Now let's talk about cheese, on Father's day I was treated with cheese cakes including one that is gluten free. I commented that I couldn't stand the gluten free's taste and loved the regular one, only to be told the one I just ate was the gluten free one. I took the rest of the gluten free cake home and finished it the same evening.

The fact is, sometimes we see things that aren't there, and didn't see things that were there all along, let alone hearing.

 

[3db]

The wine analogy only holds true when you are able to do a side by side comparison. Spread the compariosn across a couple of days or weeks and see how accurate the comparisons become. Hearing is the one sense that we have whose inaccuracy grows exponentially in a very short time frame. To be able to hear differences, the comparisons must be made side by side within a couple of minutes with all the variables such as loudspeakers, placement of speakers in a room, volume levels matched, and the room acoustics and setup to be identical. I would even argue for the removal of sight bias in listening tests. Long term memory accuracy is an oxymoron. It does not exist. The credability of person claiming long term hearing accuracy becomes immediately suspect in my books.

 

[shadyJ]

The wine analogy only holds true when you are able to do a side by side comparison. Spread the compariosn across a couple of days or weeks and see how accurate the comparisons become. Hearing is the one sense that we have whose inaccuracy grows exponentially in a very short time frame. To be able to hear differences, the comparisons must be made side by side within a couple of minutes with all the variables such as loudspeakers, placement of speakers in a room, volume levels matched, and the room acoustics and setup to be identical. I would even argue for the removal of sight bias in listening tests. Long term memory accuracy is an oxymoron. It does not exist. The credability of person claiming long term hearing accuracy becomes immediately suspect in my books.

Aural memory has been shown to degrade as quickly as 3 to 4 seconds. Side by side evaluations of this nature has to be done very quickly because of that. I would say a couple minutes is too long, and that serves your point even moreso.

 

[panteragstk]

@Bucknekked – This is a tough one. There is no way to determine whether someone else hears more than you or as much as you. (It is, I believe, easier to determine if someone hears less than you and this is one of the problems. Someone smarter here once said you can’t win an argument with “I can’t hear it so it’s not there”).

Then again, there IS such a thing, I believe, as developing your hearing through practice – spending a lot of time listening and comparing and discerning among different sounds, albums, equipment etc.

So the question, sometimes, is whether a certain person can hear something, not only if it's there? Is his hearing developed enough? This is why I often don’t take my hearing as a starting point. I’ll say I can’t hear the difference between tin plate and copper cable, but, and this for me is more important, a lot of life-time experience experts say they can’t (usually these are the ones that are not trying to sell or help someone sell you, in this case, tin plate cable) and I go by them. I rely on experts because I can’t afford to give every option a listening test.

I’m satisfied when I see that both I and some experts say the same thing. I don’t think of my ears much although many of my musician friends tell me I have nothing to worry about.

Now, about the difference. As said here many times, there are a lot of differences out there, but are these improvements? It IS possible to even hear a difference on those dumb youtube clips where people “test” 45000$ equipment (or more) and change between CD and mp3, but what is that difference made of? What it consists of? It is similar with very expensive equipment. Many of those brands deliberately produce “signature-sound” equipment and of course you can hear the difference, but is this difference really relevant to you?

Since no one can own as many sound systems as there are different studios/sounds, I always believed it is best to go after the equipment that does nothing or as good as nothing to the sound except amplify it and reproduce it.

In the end, there are always those cases of exposing companies fixing their systems in order to sell audiofool sh… like Nordost and all those cases mentioned in these forums over time. To which I say If the difference is so big that it’s worth the increase of 8000$ for some piece of equipment, why the fixing? Why do you need to meddle with the source material if it’s audible?

But you see now how tough it is? How intertwined and blurred it is? Yes it is possible to hear more than the average Joe AND since it is next to impossible to determine when this stops and becomes mere placebo, you’re left only with your honesty and sense of decency. At one point audible improvements stop being improvements and become mere differences among high-end brands. Still audible, but is it worth thousands of bucks?

Good post. One thing about selling A/V for the few years I did it was that now the picture on so many displays just drive me nuts. I can't watch certain TVs at a friend or relative's house without thinking "man, the motion blur on that is terrible" or "they really need to get that thing calibrated". Never noticed this stuff before seeing different screens every day all day. I'm super sensitive to that stuff now.

I guess the same can be said of a lot of things.

 

[Bucknekked]

@Bucknekked – This is a tough one. There is no way to determine whether someone else hears more than you or as much as you. (It is, I believe, easier to determine if someone hears less than you and this is one of the problems. Someone smarter here once said you can’t win an argument with “I can’t hear it so it’s not there”).

Then again, there IS such a thing, I believe, as developing your hearing through practice – spending a lot of time listening and comparing and discerning among different sounds, albums, equipment etc.

So the question, sometimes, is whether a certain person can hear something, not only if it's there? Is his hearing developed enough? This is why I often don’t take my hearing as a starting point. I’ll say I can’t hear the difference between tin plate and copper cable, but, and this for me is more important, a lot of life-time experience experts say they can’t (usually these are the ones that are not trying to sell or help someone sell you, in this case, tin plate cable) and I go by them. I rely on experts because I can’t afford to give every option a listening test.

I’m satisfied when I see that both I and some experts say the same thing. I don’t think of my ears much although many of my musician friends tell me I have nothing to worry about.

Now, about the difference. As said here many times, there are a lot of differences out there, but are these improvements? It IS possible to even hear a difference on those dumb youtube clips where people “test” 45000$ equipment (or more) and change between CD and mp3, but what is that difference made of? What it consists of? It is similar with very expensive equipment. Many of those brands deliberately produce “signature-sound” equipment and of course you can hear the difference, but is this difference really relevant to you?

Since no one can own as many sound systems as there are different studios/sounds, I always believed it is best to go after the equipment that does nothing or as good as nothing to the sound except amplify it and reproduce it.

In the end, there are always those cases of exposing companies fixing their systems in order to sell audiofool sh… like Nordost and all those cases mentioned in these forums over time. To which I say If the difference is so big that it’s worth the increase of 8000$ for some piece of equipment, why the fixing? Why do you need to meddle with the source material if it’s audible?

But you see now how tough it is? How intertwined and blurred it is? Yes it is possible to hear more than the average Joe AND since it is next to impossible to determine when this stops and becomes mere placebo, you’re left only with your honesty and sense of decency. At one point audible improvements stop being improvements and become mere differences among high-end brands. Still audible, but is it worth thousands of bucks?

there's a lot of good observations in your post. I liked it.

 

[DIY Junky]

I’m in the wine business and probably should be on the other end of spectrum in this debate. When people listen to me analyzing wine, they always think I’m full of sh… However, when I ask someone who is as good as I am whether he can detect a certain fragrance, the answer is almost always a positive one.

Furthermore, when I provide a substance that gives of that same fragrance and ask the distrusting novice if he/she can detect it after that, more often than not, they can (like a certain type of plum for the Merlot, passion fruit for the Australian Chardonnay, lychee for the Gewurtztraminer).

So it has to do with learning to detect. But when I have someone spouting nonsense like the wine smells like his granny when she is sad, I just wanna puke.

To expand on the subject even further, I had a lab at my convenience to confirm my findings. If I say volatile, the machine says volatile. If I say banana, the machine says banana (in fact it is isoamyl-acetate). If I say contact with lees, the wine maker says contact with lees and so on.

So, even if my description may sound odd to someone who just dropped in on the whole wine scene (like your newsreporter),I know what I’m saying and why I’m saying it. And there is still a huge difference between what I say and all the subjective nonsense you can hear about wines.

Funy I said the same thing about wine and a well prepared meal a few pages back

 

[MrBoat]

I’m in the wine business and probably should be on the other end of spectrum in this debate. When people listen to me analyzing wine, they always think I’m full of sh… However, when I ask someone who is as good as I am whether he can detect a certain fragrance, the answer is almost always a positive one.

Furthermore, when I provide a substance that gives of that same fragrance and ask the distrusting novice if he/she can detect it after that, more often than not, they can (like a certain type of plum for the Merlot, passion fruit for the Australian Chardonnay, lychee for the Gewurtztraminer).

So it has to do with learning to detect. But when I have someone spouting nonsense like the wine smells like his granny when she is sad, I just wanna puke.

To expand on the subject even further, I had a lab at my convenience to confirm my findings. If I say volatile, the machine says volatile. If I say banana, the machine says banana (in fact it is isoamyl-acetate). If I say contact with lees, the wine maker says contact with lees and so on.

So, even if my description may sound odd to someone who just dropped in on the whole wine scene (like your newsreporter), I know what I’m saying and why I’m saying it. And there is still a huge difference between what I say and all the subjective nonsense you can hear about wines.

I chug wine to taste it. That is no joke. Went to a wine tasting once, with a date, and against my better judgement and there was this prim and proper old lady there that took my taste tactic as a cue. Turns out that she was an old pro at wine chugging and the both of us managed to get a little sloshed in short order. As far as we were concerned, there was no bad wine there at all.

 

[killdozzer]

Funy I said the same thing about wine and a well prepared meal a few pages back

Sorry, I admit I didn't read every each one of the posts. I went back now to read the one you're pointing out.

My analogy was only meant to point out how being versed at something, may it be senses, puts you in a position to abuse it. @3db ‘s comment is accurate as well as @shadyJ 's, but that wasn’t what I was going for.

Once I establish a certain level of authority in a subject matter, in my case wines, I can literally feel how I gained trust and how I could abuse it at that moment. I don’t because I think it’s important not to be that guy. And that’s it. There is little else there. No higher justice or real damage (the biggest damage is if someone is going way above his pay-grade and spending more than he should, but people who scam other people usually think that's the guy's fault and it's an open season).

If I told someone; see how this wine has superb balance and how harmonious it is? And the person agrees with me because he saw earlier I know my stuff and I sell him a 90$ bottle, it is almost a full proof scam. Whenever someone would tell that guy that the wine he bought is nothing of the kind, he would just smirk and think “well, that’s because you’re not a natural like I am, you can’t taste it because you should drink a “bag in the box” wine”.

When you trick someone using compliments of his exceptionality, you gained a Kerberos for life. He will always attack the ones who are trying to help him see through your scam. Simply because in order to see through your scam, he would have to admit to himself that he was being vain and stupid. And that just won’t do. And it won’t do because he is too vain and stupid. It’s just that, unlike what wisdom of our time says, I don’t think it’s OK to trick someone because he is vain and stupid.

If the news guy, from @Buckenkked ‘s OP was talking to Mr. Toole or Mr. Murphy he might actually have a hard time noticing the difference between what they say and what Mr. Fremer says. Simply because he doesn’t know enough to understand why a very expensive power cable is no better that the standard one. And if Mr. Fremer says it is better and he can hear it, the news guy may simply think; well, I guess my ear is not trained enough. The news guy is like a newbie and he is totally exposed to one’s verbal abilities and sense of justice.

 

[Bucknekked]

When you trick someone using compliments of his exceptionality, you gained a Kerberos for life. He will always attack the ones who are trying to help him see through your scam. Simply because in order to see through your scam, he would have to admit to himself that he was being vain and stupid. .

killdozer
Anybody that uses Kerberos in a sentence not related to security protocols is going to get two thumbs up from me. I love it when people use the language for its intent: to communicate.

There is a painful logic to your post. All too true I'm afraid when it comes to peoples ego, flattery, and once a point of view is formed its very tough to change. I think its Floyd Toole that has a quote about being fooled, although it may be one of our other fine AH members. It goes something like this: "Its much easier for me to fool you than to convince you you are being fooled". Once you've swallowed the fools koolaid, its pretty tough to undo it.

 

[MrBoat]

killdozer
Anybody that uses Kerberos in a sentence not related to security protocols is going to get two thumbs up from me. I love it when people use the language for its intent: to communicate.

There is a painful logic to your post. All too true I'm afraid when it comes to peoples ego, flattery, and once a point of view is formed its very tough to change. I think its Floyd Toole that has a quote about being fooled, although it may be one of our other fine AH members. It goes something like this: "Its much easier for me to fool you than to convince you you are being fooled". Once you've swallowed the fools koolaid, its pretty tough to undo it.

99% of why I have to avoid sales/marketers people. Especially those who simply cannot turn off the spiel, even when it should be obvious that they are talking to someone with a consumer mentality above that of a 10 yr old. This includes every car sales ad, or anything on the television or other mainstream outlets.

 

[panteragstk]

killdozer
Anybody that uses Kerberos in a sentence not related to security protocols is going to get two thumbs up from me. I love it when people use the language for its intent: to communicate.

There is a painful logic to your post. All too true I'm afraid when it comes to peoples ego, flattery, and once a point of view is formed its very tough to change. I think its Floyd Toole that has a quote about being fooled, although it may be one of our other fine AH members. It goes something like this: "Its much easier for me to fool you than to convince you you are being fooled". Once you've swallowed the fools koolaid, its pretty tough to undo it.

I was wondering why he was talking about network authentication...

I do think he hit the nail squarely on the head. "The fancy sales guy told me I had great ears since I can hear how much better this power cable sounds. My friend doesn't agree, my friend must not have great ears." I can see how easy it would be for people to fall into that line of thinking.

 

[panteragstk]

99% of why I have to avoid sales/marketers people. Especially those who simply cannot turn off the spiel, even when it should be obvious that they are talking to someone with a consumer mentality above that of a 10 yr old. This includes every car sales ad, or anything on the television or other mainstream outlets.

This is why when I was a salesman I did so well. I was more of a consultant (what I actually do now). Instead of trying to get them to buy something, I asked what they were trying to do and what their budget was. Then I pointed out what I thought would be the best for the money. If they didn't want to buy today I told them I'd be there when they were. Most came back and made the purchase. Nobody ever returned anything because they were "sold" something they didn't need. Many came and thanked me for my help.

At the time we had "secret shoppers" that had a sheet of asinine criteria they used to "grade" us. I always did terrible because I didn't ask for a sale so much as asked when they were looking to purchase. That and I wasn't pushy. I don't care if you buy anything (even though I do cause I get paid more if you do). Top salesman in the store and sometimes the whole company made my store manager tell upper management to shove it when they wanted me fired for my "low secret shopper scores".

 

[MrBoat]

This is why when I was a salesman I did so well. I was more of a consultant (what I actually do now). Instead of trying to get them to buy something, I asked what they were trying to do and what their budget was. Then I pointed out what I thought would be the best for the money. If they didn't want to buy today I told them I'd be there when they were. Most came back and made the purchase. Nobody ever returned anything because they were "sold" something they didn't need. Many came and thanked me for my help.

At the time we had "secret shoppers" that had a sheet of asinine criteria they used to "grade" us. I always did terrible because I didn't ask for a sale so much as asked when they were looking to purchase. That and I wasn't pushy. I don't care if you buy anything (even though I do cause I get paid more if you do). Top salesman in the store and sometimes the whole company made my store manager tell upper management to shove it when they wanted me fired for my "low secret shopper scores".

Car sales are the worst. Profiling customers, for example. Like when I was in my 40's, and they send out the typical 'MILF' type with the cleavage and the tramp stamp and the blouse that exposes such things. I hold equal disregard for those who not only fall for it, even if subconsciously, but that enable such nonsense. Ended up making them bring 3 trucks up, to the brink of a sale and to where she was having a hard time holding back her agitated state, and then walked off.

Seasoned salesmen for quality products that essentially sell themselves. . . . I can kind of work with them. But I swear, anything on the radio or TV or those who bring such a 'cartooned' style to their shtick, I have no use for. It's not all the salesmen's fault. This is basically a byproduct of a service economy so reliant on cheap, imported crap, and the myriad of parasites and tactics it takes to perpetuate and squeeze nickels from it.

 

[Mikado463]

Car sales are the worst. Profiling customers, for example. Like when I was in my 40's, and they send out the typical 'MILF' type with the cleavage and the tramp stamp and the blouse that exposes such things.

I never had that kind of luck when I was in my forties.............

 

[MrBoat]

I never had that kind of luck when I was in my forties.............

Bimbos aren't luck. They are a dime/dozen and no challenge whatsoever. Plus, I have two sons that I could have never let see their dad falling for such cheap tricks!

 

[killdozzer]

Bimbos aren't luck. They are a dime/dozen and no challenge whatsoever. Plus, I have two sons that I could have never let see their dad falling for such cheap tricks!

When it comes to marketing I really think very much like you. I remember saying that before, but it alwas amazes me. You could literally write a post in my stead and it would be me who wouldn't know the difference!

There is one single type of comercials I like; the ones spreading news and giving some extra details and info (but only relevant info and details). That's it.

 

[Bucknekked]

Since I started this thread, I thought I would give it a bump with some new "audiophile" equipment. Stuff that I know many of you will want to run right out and consider purchasing. This stuff is reasonably priced and should be right up many of your alleys. Included in the thread are photo's of the equipment so you can get a view of what you may be purchasing.

Custom made turntable: $400,000
Wilson Audio Master speaker system: $800,000
Sundries: probably another $400,000
Listening to Michael Fremer as vinyl DJ: Priceless (or deduct -$400,000 if you are like me)

NORTH AMERICAN DEBUT OF TURNTABLE & SPEAKERS

 

[Mikado463]

So Buck, you got your order put in ?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Since I started this thread, I thought I would give it a bump with some new "audiophile" equipment. Stuff that I know many of you will want to run right out and consider purchasing. This stuff is reasonably priced and should be right up many of your alleys. Included in the thread are photo's of the equipment so you can get a view of what you may be purchasing.

Custom made turntable: $400,000
Wilson Audio Master speaker system: $800,000
Sundries: probably another $400,000
Listening to Michael Fremer as vinyl DJ: Priceless (or deduct -$400,000 if you are like me)

NORTH AMERICAN DEBUT OF TURNTABLE & SPEAKERS

Wow, look at that.

I don't know what's more fun, looking at the pictures of all that equipment or looking at the signatures of some of those members.

turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, Bergmann Audio Odin; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Air Tight Opus 1; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse; line stage: VTL TL-7.5 Series III; amplifier: VTL Siegfried Series II; loudspeaker: Gryphon Pendragon; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Vintage Audio Nothing racks, Herzan TS-140/Taiko Tana for Io, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Torus AVR60BAL; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; acoustic treatment: ASC IsoThermal Tube Traps, Lumitex drapes

DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack, Metronome Kalista / Kondo KSL DAC, Wilson Audio XLF's, EMT927, SME3012R, ARC Phono 3, ARC REF40, cj GAT2 - ART's, Lamm ML3/LL1, TA Opus MM2 speaker and signal, Moghami cables, TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables, CenterStage footers and Nordost Qkore8's!

MBL 101E, Martin Logan Statement E2 SubTowers, Modded Maplenoll Ariadne Signature, SME 3012R,BenzMicro LPS and Ebony TR, Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 power supplys, Primare 928 and 201,Krell Kps 25sc, MBL9011,Krell700Cx,Ps Audio P500,Ps Audio P300, Straightwire Crescendo 1 and 2. Mogami.

American Sound 2000, SME 3012R, Colibri Master Signature, Opus1, EMT JPA66 MkII, Cessaro Gamma II, Lamm ML3 Sig, Lamm LL1.1 Sig., Studer A820, Doshi V3.0, Kuro SilverGold, Ching Cheng, Stacore, and KLAudio.

nalog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-27 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
Speakers: Magico Q3, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

Bespoke Audio Silver TVC passive preamp, Bent Audio AVC-1 full-balanced autoformer passive preamp, MC2 S1400 monoblocks, Magico S5 speaker, CAS with MSB Platinum IV Plus dac, MSB Select Transport, UMT Plus & Signature Transport Powerbase, PLiXiR and Furman isolation transformers.

Analog-VPI Classic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2A,2xAmpexATR102+Doshi3.0
Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacMicroModel2
Dig Play-Lampi Pacific,NADACmch,Roon/HQP,Oppo95
Electronics-HerronVTSP360Pre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
Other-ArtKelmGround1,AudioDiskVinylCleaner,AirTightRecordFlat
Scott Rust Interconnects,Switch,Symmetric Power Supply
Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

Speaker: Wilson Audio Maxx 3, Pre: Koda Takumi K10 G2, Grandinote Genesi Amp: VTL S-400 Dac: Lampizator GG 2.5 CD-Drive: Oracle CD2000 PhonoPre: AudioSpecials AS, Boulder 2008, Audia Flight, Phono: Micro Seiki DDX1500, TechDas AF3P, TechDAS AF V, Tonearm: FR64s/fx, 54, 24 MKII, Ikeda 407/345, SME 3012R, AirTangent Reference, Cartridge: Ikeda 9TT, Ikeda 9mono, shun mook MC 1, vdh Master Signature, SPU Century, Air Tight PC-1, Step up: Ikeda IST-201, Fidelity Research Fx-2H, Fx-2L, Cables: NBS BL III, XLO limited, ETI, JPS Aluminata Reference / Super, Vertere, Phasemation, Power: Furutech Powerblock 6E Rack: Artesania Exoteryc, HRS SXR, CMS, Bases: CMS Maxxum II, CMS Back Diamond, HRS M3x, Accurion i4L, Grounding: Telos GNR, Entreq

Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: hORNs Universum III Backup: Modded tannoys (vintage drivers, new cabinets, modded crossover) + SETs/OTL amp rolling Analog shortlist: VDH master Sig Stradivarius, Allaerts, Decca; Allnic phono/burmester 100, in increasing order of price Schopper TD124, ST ST Motus II, Brinkmann Balance, Vyger Atlantis

Wave Kin. NVS tt, Durand Telos Sapphire arm, CA Gold Stat cart, -3- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + (2) 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, Taiko Tana (2) TS-140 & (2) TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

 

[Bucknekked]

So Buck, you got your order put in ?

I figure if I want to do some of my own DJ work, I should get two of those $400k turntables.
Then I'd look truly in style as I do my 65 year old DJ shuffle.