Do audiophiles hear something we don't?

[PENG]

Glad to know you keep watching! I do just want to point out that "getting consistent results is to do it blind" is solely related to individual loudspeaker subjective preference ie. the speaker shuffler at Harman. With the exception of the question he posed - "Is the room the fundamental problem?"

Yes I realized that, it has nothing to do with REQ.

What he teaches in his writing, both the book and paid-public AES Paper 'Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems' is that Listening position measurements are necessary, but insufficient data with which to prescribe a solution, which unfortunately is the basis of most current Room EQ programs.

That's one of the thing he said that I wish he hadn't. Of course he knows that stuff 1000X or more than me, but I am not sure he understood enough about what Dirac, Audyssey and Anthem ARC etc. I do believe if he knows more about those systems he would have something different to say about them.

Furthermore, without comprehensive anechoic measurements (CTA2034) of the loudspeaker(s) being employed, it is impossible to deduce the contributions of the room from the sound coming from the speaker itself, making any EQ above bass Transition (where sound waves stop being omni directional and gain increasing forward bias with increasing frequency) likely to compromise the performance - short of tone control adjustments to suit the variability of recordings.

To me, their theory/concepts and approach seem absolutely convincing, but I know you and I are not going to be able to convince each other on this topic, so I'll leave it at that..

PS I am starting to explore DIY monitors for my computer as well, and will be sure to send along that info!

Nice, and thank you in advance. It will be at least another 2 months before we finished our first 3-way speakers. I did finish my DIY 5 W amp, sounds great with the reportedly hungry (relatively) LS50s, and definitely enough to drive the bigger R900s.

 

[Mikado463]

OCD manifests itself in many different ways .............

 

[TheWarrior]

Yes I realized that, it has nothing to do with REQ.



That's one of the thing he said that I wish he hadn't. Of course he knows that stuff 1000X or more than me, but I am not sure he understood enough about what Dirac, Audyssey and Anthem ARC etc. I do believe if he knows more about those systems he would have something different to say about them.



To me, their theory/concepts and approach seem absolutely convincing, but I know you and I are not going to be able to convince each other on this topic, so I'll leave it at that..



Nice, and thank you in advance. It will be at least another 2 months before we finished our first 3-way speakers. I did finish my DIY 5 W amp, sounds great with the reportedly hungry (relatively) LS50s, and definitely enough to drive the bigger R900s.

I do believe Floyd mentioned being impressed by how Dirac were coming along, and there may have been collaboration there with the new SDP-75 processor. But the development of its REQ is also based on Harman products as they have all the comprehensive CTA-2034 data, so if you bought your JBL Synthesis processor and any of Harman's umbrella of speakers you would have a greatly simplified measurement process. But what little I know of their REQ, there's a lot more that goes in to the processor learning what type of space it is in. As all things trickle down, I look forward to that being more affordable, of course!

While I am impressed by the speakers on my new iMac, I find I am spending a lot more time on my computer and would appreciate not just having to crank the stereo on the other side of the house. So I have been spending a bit of time searching more affordable drivers than what I am planning for my center channel.

I forgot about the DIY amp design you shared! I might build that to drive the computer speakers!

 

[PENG]

I forgot about the DIY amp design you shared! I might build that to drive the computer speakers!

Unless you have a crave for class A, you may want to avoid that one. It is expensive for a 5 W amp. The next one I am going to build is a 25 W one, still class A so parts alone will cost about C$1,000, not a cheap hobby so far.

 

[TheWarrior]

Unless you have a crave for class A, you may want to avoid that one. It is expensive for a 5 W amp. The next one I am going to build is a 25 W one, still class A so parts alone will cost about C$1,000, not a cheap hobby so far.

Ah.... That little Emotiva might be a better option, lol!

 

[PENG]

Ah.... That little Emotiva might be a better option, lol!

To be fair those Pass designed amps are only expensive in terms of $/Watt because they are class A. Suits me fine only because 75 dB average 95 dB max peak plus another 5-6 dB headroom is good enough for me.

Here's a more practical one, 150 W.

https://diyaudiostore.com/products/honey-badger

 

[MrBoat]

Unless you have a crave for class A, you may want to avoid that one. It is expensive for a 5 W amp. The next one I am going to build is a 25 W one, still class A so parts alone will cost about C$1,000, not a cheap hobby so far.

I built the ACA (the upgraded version) and have all of the parts for the F5 V3, which is another Pass DIY that specs to 25W but nowhere near $1k. I have somewhere around $150 in the ACA amp.

ETA: I keep forgetting that I got the matched JFETs for free so that saves a bit.

 

[PENG]

I built the ACA (the upgraded version) and have all of the parts for the F5 V3, which is another Pass DIY that specs to 25W but nowhere near $1k. I have somewhere around $150 in the ACA amp.

ETA: I keep forgetting that I got the matched JFETs for free so that saves a bit.

The ACA kit is now going for USD 317. Factor in the low CD/USD conversion, the chasis, shipping, and taxes, even the ACA totalled more than CAD 500. Did yo build the chassis yourself, that would have made a huge difference in cost?

The F5 is going to be much heavier so shipping costs would be much higher, and as you know those rare jfets are quite expensive. I asked about it on the diyaudio forum and was told about C$700 but when my own calculations show I should budget for about C$1000. I am also considering to use a larger transformer and the bigger 5U chassis. We know our OP @Bucknekked likely won't complain but I think I should start a thread on this in the diy corner where it belongs.

 

[DIY Junky]

A good friend of mine sent me an article out of a UK publication that I thought was a pretty good read. A non-audio addicted journalist went to an audiophile show called "2015 HiFi Wigwam Show" and then penned an article about what he saw and the types of people he met there.

For once, the author didn't denigrate or insult those of us with serious audio addictions. He actually was pretty complimentary throughout while having some fun poking our idiosyncrasies. It seemed a good enough article to share here. Hope you enjoy it

DO AUDIOPHILES HEAR SOMETHING WE DON'T?

Ok starting in late on this topic.. My 2 cents is that you develop an ear over time. Like some are fine drinking wine out of a box and others have to have a wine with a good history behind it and can break the layers of flavor down as they taste it. Music on a good system has layers you can breakdown .. I love my Denon set on 5.1 stereo with 4 speakers and a sub.. It can take a 2 channel signal and do audio magic with it .. And others are happy with MP3s on ear buds ..The ear bud people just don't get it .. just like the box wine people

 

[Mikado463]

To be fair those Pass designed amps are only expensive in terms of $/Watt because they are class A.

not all of them Peng, my X260.8's are an A/B design, albeit with the first 34 watts biased into class A. Look at the overall build quality vs Emotiva and or Crown. If you can't discern the difference, then forget about it...........

 

[Verdinut]

The question should rather be: DO AUDIOPHOOLS HEAR SOMETHING WE DON'T? The answer is: THEY THINK THAT THEY DO BUT THEY DON'T IN REALITY!
Then if they're convinced that they hear things that we can't, they are either psychotic or they have come from another planet!

 

[MrBoat]

There's more than one type of audiophile. Those who claim they can hear more than the 'average' person and have to have the very best, or those who possess enough of an imagination in which to fill in the missing bits that playback equipment cannot resolve, no matter the cost.

After having listened to many, less than stellar sources of music, I can tell you which I would consider the greater gift.

 

[DIY Junky]

Food is another good example A good meal has layers of flavor that a good cook or Chef will include into the meal in hopes that the one eating it will be able to get hits of each herb and spice they put into the meal. Some will just shove it into there mouths and eat it. Others will try to get each layer of flavor as they enjoy the work that went into the meal. I baby sit a smoker with a real wood fire for 9-10 hours to get a brisket up to my level. And few even take the time to ask what went into it.. and just say that was yummy … Same with music

 

[Verdinut]

As you say, some people with a trained ear can easily distinguish the better sounding equipment. For examples. musicians (not heavy metal group musicians who are all deaf), people who go to acoustic (not amplified) music concerts and people with a long time listening experience with various audio gear.

People who insist on having the very best are never satisfied because they always want the newer audio equipment with minute spec improvement which is not noticeable by the human ear. They also buy very expensive speakers because they believe they perform better (often not the case). and some of them also like to impress their audience.
That becomes a very expensive hobby. I know some of those people and most of us probably do.

 

[DIY Junky]

As you say, some people with a trained ear can easily distinguish the better sounding equipment. For examples. musicians (not heavy metal group musicians who are all deaf), people who go to acoustic (not amplified) music concerts and people with a long time listening experience with various audio gear.

People who insist on having the very best are never satisfied because they always want the newer audio equipment with minute spec improvement which is not noticeable by the human ear. They buy very expensive speakers because they believe they perform better (often not the case). and some of them also like to impress the their audience.
That becomes a very expensive hobby. I know some of those people and most of us probably do.

That I why I make as much as I can on my own.. Kits have some great drivers and tweeter for a 1/3 of the cost. its the science and speaker placement that counts .. I always laugh at HUGE speakers in a small room like WTF ?

 

[Irvrobinson]

As you say, some people with a trained ear can easily distinguish the better sounding equipment. For examples. musicians (not heavy metal group musicians who are all deaf), people who go to acoustic (not amplified) music concerts and people with a long time listening experience with various audio gear.

That people can be trained to listen is well-proven. I disagree that "long time listening experience with various audio gear" is relevant. All that teaches you about is what a lot of audio equipment (at least speakers) sounds like. Only live acoustics sounds teaches us anything, and of course only if you listen well. It reminds of some Porsche owners I run into who think that 20+ years of owning Porsches means they know something about how cars work. Obviously it doesn't.

People who insist on having the very best are never satisfied because they always want the newer audio equipment with minute spec improvement which is not noticeable by the human ear. They buy very expensive speakers because they believe they perform better (often not the case). and some of them also like to impress their audience. That becomes a very expensive hobby. I know some of those people and most of us probably do.

I keep hearing about these people who like to impress others with their audio equipment, but I've never met them. I know a lot of people who own very expensive equipment, but none of them are in the show-off category. I will say this, however, seldom do I run into anyone who really cares about accuracy. With few exceptions, even in music-only systems, the audiophiles I know are in the if-it-sounds-good-it-is-good category. I also haven't run into an expensive HT system that sounds good with music.

 

[PENG]

not all of them Peng, my X260.8's are an A/B design, albeit with the first 34 watts biased into class A. Look at the overall build quality vs Emotiva and or Crown. If you can't discern the difference, then forget about it...........

Good advice, though I have done a lot of sighted, level matched by ears comparison between gear including some of the top Pass labs, Krell and other others, using high resolution speakers and couldn't really say one sounded better than the other. Whatever subtle differences I heard would likely have disappeared if done blind. Obviously ymmv..

Regardless, I enjoy diy and am sourcing JFETs for my second Pass designed diy amp now. It doesn't matter if I can discern the class A sound or not, as long as I can still afford this new hobby. It the fun in building it that matters.

 

[Mikado463]

.
Regardless, I enjoy diy and am sourcing JFETs for my second Pass designed diy amp now. It doesn't matter if I can discern the class A sound or not, as long as I can still afford this new hobby. It the fun in building it that matters.

Exactly and to that Nelson Pass is one of the most respected in the DIY community. Both he and his son are very approachable when in attendance at some of the shows I've been to. Never did see 'Joe Denon' there to talk to though ...........

 

[Bucknekked]

There's more than one type of audiophile. Those who claim they can hear more than the 'average' person and have to have the very best, or those who possess enough of an imagination in which to fill in the missing bits that playback equipment cannot resolve, no matter the cost.

After having listened to many, less than stellar sources of music, I can tell you which I would consider the greater gift.

There's more than one type and more to enjoying audio than just having great equipment. You are spot on Mr Boat. I have "filled in the missing bits" many times on systems when I was broke and that's all there was. With good friends in the room and some good comradery, I've had some great musical enjoyment sessions on what I would now consider to be sub-par equipment and room. Loving the music adds to the enjoyment.

Having the right mindset that predisposes you to enjoy something IMHO gives some folks a definite leg up. If you're pretty sure you're gonna enjoy a piece of music, odds are good you just might. Add great equipment, and dang if it doesn't turn out great a lot.

 

[Mikado463]

The question should rather be: DO AUDIOPHOOLS HEAR SOMETHING WE DON'T? The answer is: THEY THINK THAT THEY DO BUT THEY DON'T IN REALITY!

Ok, so you're not an audiophile (fool), that's Ok, but what makes you think 'your' ears are 'the' hear all ? ...... they're not !