The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually, anything is possible for a Monolith pre-pro and how about a Monolith universal Blu-ray player to replace the now discontinued OPPO?

To answer one of your other mentioned questions, I would rather get a Denon AVR to use as a pre-pro. What would you think of one of those Denon DN-700 AVP though, and combine it with the miniDSP with Dirac Live as an alternate option?

For the 2 channel power amp, I would use one or several of the QSC DCA Series amps which are, IMO, as acoustically transparent as the expensive Macs, Krell, Parasound etc. The DCA 1222s which I am using now (200w @8 ohms -325w @4 ohms) retail for over US$900 and the DCA 1622 (300w @8 ohms -500w @4 ohms) retail for over $1100, but a few stores in Calif. which distribute cinema equipment sell them at 20% discount prices. I believe.

Monolith is already making a huge splash with the 200x7 ATI-built amp and THX-Ultra Subwoofers.

It would be super cool if they could get a universal player (built by Oppo) and Pre-Pro (like the Denon DN-700AVP or the Marantz pre-pro).

Since Denon doesn’t even advertise the $800 700AVP pre-pro, maybe they would be willing to build one for Monolith.

A lot of hardcore separates audiophiles detest EQ and DSP, so the 700AVP would be ideal for this camp since it doesn’t offer EQ or DSP. I think the $800 Denon 700AVP is the most “pure” AVP on the market, even more pure than the $10,000 Bryston AVP, which has EQ and DSP.

I am very surprised that Moon Audio or some other companies haven’t re-branded the 700AVP as a “Pure AVP with no EQ/DSP” and sell for $4K!

Regarding QSC and other Pro-amps that sound just as good as Krell, Mark Levinson, Boulder, etc., imagine Monolith with a Class-D 8 LBS 200x2 and 300x2 amp that look like an audiophile amp like the Lyngdorf amp, but sell for $300 and $400 each?

 

[PENG]

Monolith is already making a huge splash with the 200x7 ATI-built amp and THX-Ultra Subwoofers.

It would be super cool if they could get a universal player (built by Oppo) and Pre-Pro (like the Denon DN-700AVP or the Marantz pre-pro).

Since Denon doesn’t even advertise the $800 700AVP pre-pro, maybe they would be willing to build one for Monolith.

A lot of hardcore separates audiophiles detest EQ and DSP, so the 700AVP would be ideal for this camp since it doesn’t offer EQ or DSP. I think the $800 Denon 700AVP is the most “pure” AVP on the market, even more pure than the $10,000 Bryston AVP, which has EQ and DSP.

I am very surprised that Moon Audio or some other companies haven’t re-branded the 700AVP as a “Pure AVP with no EQ/DSP” and sell for $4K!

Regarding QSC and other Pro-amps that sound just as good as Krell, Mark Levinson, Boulder, etc., imagine Monolith with a Class-D 8 LBS 200x2 and 300x2 amp that look like an audiophile amp like the Lyngdorf amp, but sell for $300 and $400 each?

Are you sure the Denon doesn't use DSP. If he has bass management features there is a good chance it does use DSP.

 

[sterling shoote]

Look around, the pre/pro today is a niche product. It appears that most folks just do not want such complexity, in spite of meaningful features. For me, I suppose that if my Sony TA-E9000es pre/pro breaks down and can not be repaired, I will look at a Marantz pre/pro or similar, since the pre/pro concept will still accommodate the rest of my existing system more than an AVR; but, it seems just down the road, pre/pros, AVRs, passive speakers, and power amps will become history, as smart phones and active speakers begin to serve the home theatre role at less expense and much greater convenience than traditional methods of music and movie pleasure. Already, an iPhone and a couple of Bluetooth active speakers are capable of delivering a very pleasant stereo experience for peanuts. And, now that Smart Phones have such a great storage capacity and can also be operated from networks powered by fiber optic delivered internet is there no doubt about where things are going and how moot these discussions of AVR vs Pre/Pro are becoming.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you sure the Denon doesn't use DSP. If he has bass management features there is a good chance it does use DSP.

I mean it doesn’t offer DSP features like Hall, Stadium, 7CH Stereo, etc. that all AVR and AVP seem to have and it doesn’t Room EQ.

I believe it is made for the professional commercial crowd with simplicity and reliability (since less complex) in mind.

More simple = more reliable?

In the manual under LFE, it says that 20Hz-120Hz is the allowed range and it only works for discrete LFE channel. So I don’t think you can even get “double bass” or 2CH Stereo Bass with this 700AVP!

https://09f3b4e35b829ef5e143-525d2f2124a3483dfbd3f17c87329990.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com//1805/downloads/DN-700AVP-UserGuide-v1.5.pdf

I don’t think you can even get 2CH a Stereo + Subwoofer!

For 2CH, it looks like plain Direct Mode 2Ch, no Subwoofer.

So if you want 2CH + Sub, you would have to use an outboard XO/Amp or subwoofer amp like the RBH SA-500DSP.

Only way to even get Subwoofer XO on the Denon DN-700AVP itself is if the recording has the LFE channel.

This thing is way too PURE for my blood!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

it seems just down the road, pre/pros, AVRs, passive speakers, and power amps will become history, as smart phones and active speakers begin to serve the home theatre role at less expense and much greater convenience than traditional methods of music and movie pleasure. Already, an iPhone and a couple of Bluetooth active speakers are capable of delivering a very pleasant stereo experience for peanuts. And, now that Smart Phones have such a great storage capacity and can also be operated from networks powered by fiber optic delivered internet is there no doubt about where things are going and how moot these discussions of AVR vs Pre/Pro are becoming.

I think that opens new can of worms.

Separates = less complex machines (analog amps, analog preamps, analog speakers) = more reliable. We see warranty of 20 YR on these.

More Complex Separates = AVP (no internal amps) are supposed to be more reliable than AVR (AVP + Amps).

AVR is Integrated AV system. It integrates AVP with Amps.

Now if we stick Processors + Amps inside speakers, we get the Integrated Audio-Video-Speaker system (AVS system). Talk about all-in-one.

That’s cramming everything inside the speakers!

Warranty goes from 20YR down to 5YR down to 1YR.

I wonder if @M Code has any reliability record of these Integrated AV-Speaker systems (AVS systems)?

Sure, these AVS systems can be more CONVENIENT. They are truly an ALL-IN-ONE solution. Even more-in-one than the AVR since it’s basically an AVR inside the speaker.

The separates and purist crowd would have a field day.

We know that THD and SNR and other specs are much worst for speakers than AVR and processors. What would these specs look like when we put processors “inside” the speakers?

 

[PENG]

I mean it doesn’t offer DSP features like Hall, Stadium, 7CH Stereo, etc. that all AVR and AVP seem to have and it doesn’t Room EQ.

I believe it is made for the professional commercial crowd with simplicity and reliability (since less complex) in mind.

More simple = more reliable?

In the manual under LFE, it says that 20Hz-120Hz is the allowed range and it only works for discrete LFE channel. So I don’t think you can even get “double bass” or 2CH Stereo Bass with this 700AVP!

https://09f3b4e35b829ef5e143-525d2f2124a3483dfbd3f17c87329990.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com//1805/downloads/DN-700AVP-UserGuide-v1.5.pdf

I don’t think you can even get 2CH a Stereo + Subwoofer!

For 2CH, it looks like plain Direct Mode 2Ch, no Subwoofer.

So if you want 2CH + Sub, you would have to use an outboard XO/Amp or subwoofer amp like the RBH SA-500DSP.

Only way to even get Subwoofer XO on the Denon DN-700AVP itself is if the recording has the LFE channel.

This thing is way too PURE for my blood!

My only point is, a lot of people will not consider it "pure" if DSP is involved as it is highly unlikely that their so called direct or pure direct would bypass the digital circuitry. Even my dated 3805 will only bypass the digital part in pure direct if analog inputs are used and the subwoofer level is set to 0/muted. As soon as any DSP is engaged the ADC, DAC and at least some OPA are going to be in place. That's absolutely no issue for me and presumably you, but not for the "purist".

 

[MrBoat]

My only point is, a lot of people will not consider it "pure" if DSP is involved as it is highly unlikely that their so called direct or pure direct would bypass the digital circuitry. Even my dated 3805 will only bypass the digital part in pure direct if analog inputs are used and the subwoofer level is set to 0/muted. As soon as any DSP is engaged the ADC, DAC and at least some OPA are going to be in place. That's absolutely no issue for me and presumably you, but not for the "purist".

A "lot" of purists are really not a lot though. I have to go online to find them and they are still relatively far and few between, comparatively.

 

[M Code]

MonoLith(MonoPrice) will NOT be able to source a surround preamp/processor or universal media player..
The development/royalty costs are too high plus significant quantity requirements as they need to be sourced from overseas... Though MonoPrice has a nice little marketing niche for power amplifiers and subwoofers...

Just my $0.02...

 

[Verdinut]

I mean it doesn’t offer DSP features like Hall, Stadium, 7CH Stereo, etc. that all AVR and AVP seem to have and it doesn’t Room EQ.

I believe it is made for the professional commercial crowd with simplicity and reliability (since less complex) in mind.

More simple = more reliable?

In the manual under LFE, it says that 20Hz-120Hz is the allowed range and it only works for discrete LFE channel. So I don’t think you can even get “double bass” or 2CH Stereo Bass with this 700AVP!

https://09f3b4e35b829ef5e143-525d2f2124a3483dfbd3f17c87329990.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com//1805/downloads/DN-700AVP-UserGuide-v1.5.pdf

I don’t think you can even get 2CH a Stereo + Subwoofer!

For 2CH, it looks like plain Direct Mode 2Ch, no Subwoofer.

So if you want 2CH + Sub, you would have to use an outboard XO/Amp or subwoofer amp like the RBH SA-500DSP.

Only way to even get Subwoofer XO on the Denon DN-700AVP itself is if the recording has the LFE channel.

This thing is way too PURE for my blood!

Have you noticed that, in the Denon User Manual, there is a gross mistake in the specs: They specify audio frequency response as 10 KHz-100 KHz ±1dB instead of 10Hz-100KHz. The same error appears in the specs on their website. Surprising that nobody at the factory noticed.

 

[sterling shoote]

I think that opens new can of worms.

Separates = less complex machines (analog amps, analog preamps, analog speakers) = more reliable. We see warranty of 20 YR on these.

More Complex Separates = AVP (no internal amps) are supposed to be more reliable than AVR (AVP + Amps).

AVR is Integrated AV system. It integrates AVP with Amps.

Now if we stick Processors + Amps inside speakers, we get the Integrated Audio-Video-Speaker system (AVS system). Talk about all-in-one.

That’s cramming everything inside the speakers!

Warranty goes from 20YR down to 5YR down to 1YR.

I wonder if @M Code has any reliability record of these Integrated AV-Speaker systems (AVS systems)?

Sure, these AVS systems can be more CONVENIENT. They are truly an ALL-IN-ONE solution. Even more-in-one than the AVR since it’s basically an AVR inside the speaker.

The separates and purist crowd would have a field day.

We know that THD and SNR and other specs are much worst for speakers than AVR and processors. What would these specs look like when we put processors “inside” the speakers?

Sounds like you've done your homework on the implications of complexity. We will certainly see where it all goes I think sooner rather than later. For what's out there now, I think your appraisal is spot on.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Have you noticed that, in the Denon User Manual, there is a gross mistake in the specs: They specify audio frequency response as 10 KHz-100 KHz ±1dB instead of 10Hz-100KHz. The same error appears in the specs on their website. Surprising that nobody at the factory noticed.

Good catch. I totally missed that like most people probably did.

 

[M Code]

I think that opens new can of worms.

Separates = less complex machines (analog amps, analog preamps, analog speakers) = more reliable. We see warranty of 20 YR on these.

More Complex Separates = AVP (no internal amps) are supposed to be more reliable than AVR (AVP + Amps).

AVR is Integrated AV system. It integrates AVP with Amps.

Now if we stick Processors + Amps inside speakers, we get the Integrated Audio-Video-Speaker system (AVS system). Talk about all-in-one.

That’s cramming everything inside the speakers!

Warranty goes from 20YR down to 5YR down to 1YR.

I wonder if @M Code has any reliability record of these Integrated AV-Speaker systems (AVS systems)?

Sure, these AVS systems can be more CONVENIENT. They are truly an ALL-IN-ONE solution. Even more-in-one than the AVR since it’s basically an AVR inside the speaker.

The separates and purist crowd would have a field day.

We know that THD and SNR and other specs are much worst for speakers than AVR and processors. What would these specs look like when we put processors “inside” the speakers?

Hmmm..
My crystal ball is kinda hazy...
But there are some clear trends well in-progress for HT systems..
Such as:
1. Higher integration of amplifiers, processors and loudspeakers just check out the growth and expansion of the sound bar segement
2. Increased demand for smaller, compact amplifiers driving up sales of Class D solutions, very visible today with the expansion of QSC and Crown into the consumer segment
3. Increasing demand to hide or reduce visibility of loudspeakers & components, more in-wall installs including subwoofers, wire-less surround, ceiling loudspeakers
4. Decrease in demand for separate AV sources such as media players, Sat tuner, cable boxes, as the market increases for more streaming sources along with internet apps including Netflix, On-Demand included in the smart TVs & USB sticks
5. Even though separate component AV sources may be decreasing, certain new products such as the Caavo provide an EZ accessed database library system for cataloging content
6. HD displays continue to increase in size while decreasing in cost
7. System control is evolving as voice recognition becoming more main-stream driven by the Amazon Echo acting as a hub

Bottom line..
So yes... IMHO far more integration of loudspeakers and amplifiers. The later DSP processors have more power & resources along with more innovative surround algorithms. Fueled by the growth of less expensive, bigger screens HD displays which have tiny speakers/low power output and fail to deliver acceptable audio. So an external audio step-up integrated amplifier/speaker product is required..

Just my $0.02...

 

[2channel lover]

My perspective is quite simple:
Separates (should) have the advantage of better cooling/longevity due to less in the box and more room for cooling fins.

However, there are two factors that make generalized statements faulty - budget and intended use!

If you rephrase the question as which is better given a budget of $500, or $1000, or $1500, or $2000, etc. it becomes a different question.
Obviously, if you have no budgetary constraints, separates is better - you can buy a very capable amp that will last decades and a pre-pro which gets replaced every 1-10 years (depending on what features come out and your desire to have the latest and greatest).
Like many here, I have been inclined to split the difference using an AVR as a pre-pro along with a separate amplification (at least for the L&R). Personally, I wish I could get (as an example) a Denon 3400 at the same price without the amplification built in! Unfortunately, D&M only sells pre-pros at a much higher price.
However, I do like that the newer AVR's have the ECO mode because it tends to reduce the heat in the AVR (which is the main reason I would like to avoid the amps in the AVR), and if you are using an external amp, it will have absolutely no impact on SQ.
As compared to an AVR, most pre-pros (and definitely budget pre-pros) are a compromise on features. Budget pre-pros such as those made by Emotiva and Outlaw are produced for a few years before being replaced by a newer one (instead of the annual updates most AVR models see).

Intended use matters because if you are a simple 2 channel music guy, You don't need all of the features of an AVR and you get saddled with an interface that is overly complicated and almost requires a TV for the OSD to comfortably operate. While there is no doubt that the AVR offers more for less, much of what it offers ends up being a liability for a simple stereo setup.

You hit on two points that covered my position.

It could've been the era and places I was going to buy, but until now every music system I've owned as an adult had a 2 ch power amp, stereo pre amp, a source, and a pair of speakers. If you were "serious" about music, that's what you did...heat generating amps in one box, control and switching in another box, separate power supplies.

Unless you were doing a speaker upgrade, this system would typically be in service for a decade +. Simple design, solid construction, cool operating.

When HT hit the market and larger screen TVs, projectors, surround sound, etc...the hard core audiophile companies were slow to this multi-ch AV world. The AVR was the perfect vehicle to get the masses into HT and it still is.

I see no problem with an AVR as your Pre/pro and surround amp. I bought a pre/pro...for two reasons. 1. circling back to my beginnings in audio, and 2, an $800 savings on a brand new outgoing model

FWIW from a long time 2 ch music man...multi-ch audio has been far better than I expected.

 

[2channel lover]

The salient question is, do you feel that separates sound better than AVR within similar price range?

IOW, a $3K Pre-pro vs a $3,000 AVR?

Or a $10K Pre-pro vs a $5K AVR?

I don't have a direct answer to your question (never have heard an A/B set up AVR vs separate in a like pricepoint).

But, in terms of the impact of electronics on the SQ I do have a perspective. As with most of my posts in this area it's based on an experience. The dealer I bought my AV7702mkii from was demoing a JC2 BP, with a pair of JC1 monos...B&W 802D3...this was his best non-McIntosh room setup.

I asked him to swap out the JC2 for the 7702mkii in stereo mode and play the same session back again...switched back to JC2 (this time with RCA to the source instead of balanced) one more time and play it a 3rd and a 4th time...yes, there were some differences, very minor in favor of the JC2. If it was a blind session I probably would've figured it out after the 4th session but it was subtle.

The JC2 was $4k, mkii was $2200 being closed out for a lot less with the new 7703 already on the shelf.

So...I'm guessing the separates would probably sound slightly better, but so slight that it wouldn't justify the additional funds on SQ alone.

 

[PENG]

If it was a blind session I probably would've figured it out after the 4th session but it was subtle.

You meant if it was a blind test right? As a blind person would likely have much better hearing sense.

By the way, since you mentioned Marantz AVP, did you know that Dr. Rich found that the AV8801 (that I paid a lot for) uses a cheap IC and their HDAM modules weren't truely discrete, though Marantz rebuttal sounds convincing, they did make the AV8802A modules fully discrete, though that low cost LSI chip apparently is still there, and according to Dr. Rich, would make the sound "relatively" constant. Constantly good I supposed.. Note that when he talked about "performance" he seemed to be referring to specs on paper, and mentioned nothing about audibility.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/

"A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. Higher integration of amplifiers, processors and loudspeakers...check out...sound bars...
2. Increased demand for smaller, compact amplifiers driving up sales of Class D solutions, very visible today with the expansion of QSC and Crown into the consumer segment
3. Increasing demand to hide or reduce visibility of loudspeakers & components, more in-wall installs including subwoofers, wire-less surround, ceiling loudspeakers
4. Decrease in demand for separate AV sources such as media players, Sat tuner, cable boxes, as the market increases for more streaming sources along with internet apps including Netflix, On-Demand included in the smart TVs & USB sticks

1. In the mass market and things sold at Walmart like sound bars and Bluetooth speakers, yes, but what about high-end like Revel, B&W, KEF?

2. I can see the demand here like the smaller Lyngdorf amp.

3. Again, mainly seen in lower-end and mass market like sound bars, but not higher-end.

4. I haven’t used a media player in a long time. I only use HTPC these days, so I definitely see this trend.

 

[M Code]

1. In the mass market and things sold at Walmart like sound bars and Bluetooth speakers, yes, but what about high-end like Revel, B&W, KEF?

The mentioned brands are positioned higher in the market so their unit sales volume is lower in quantity. However there has been a noticeable increase in higher priced sound bar solutions...
IMHO...
There always will be a higher end audio specialist, loudspeaker market segment but the majority of sale $ are done in the lower market segment... Just like for electronics, 90% of the $ are AVRs, components are 10%...

Just my $0.02..

 

[Mikado463]

The mentioned brands are positioned higher in the market so their unit sales volume is lower in quantity. However there has been a noticeable increase in higher priced sound bar solutions...
IMHO...
There always will be a higher end audio specialist, loudspeaker market segment but the majority of sale $ are done in the lower market segment... Just like for electronics, 90% of the $ are AVRs, components are 10%...

Just my $0.02..

agreed, the AVR does offer an affordable 'all-in-one' solution. Yet once one ventures into the two channel high end world it's all but non-existent.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

agreed, the AVR does offer an affordable 'all-in-one' solution. Yet once one ventures into the two channel high end world it's all but non-existent.

You mean guys who own 2Ch High-end separates don't even own one AVR somewhere in the entire house, not even in the living room or guest bedroom?

I mean surely not all rooms "need" or "deserve" to be fitted with high-end separates, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What's everyone's thought about EMOTIVA coming out with a $5,000 AVR ?

Is it considered an oxymoron these days?