Old Kimber KCAG Silver or new DH Labs Air Matrix?

[lovinthehd]

Why are some of the most fervent wire supporters so poor at writing?

 

[John Dix]

You know,you just try to provoke people with the low quality things you think, and say. Not getting pulled in by you! Can't really Love the HD without realizing ,It belongs to all of us. Quit Hating

 

[3db]

You know nothing about me Oh close minded overlord, Ha Ha. You think you can throw descriptions or make comparisons of other people. My name is out there You don't even want anyone to know Who You Are???? This thread was about wiring, you do not have the right to ask anyone why they post here, Coexist, Everybody Is OK to post here as long as they don't get ugly. Who's close? I get it you may be proud of your stuff, relevance to wiring ???? We all work hard, and think about getting to the setup we really want to get to!! No Hating, no Imposing of Will. Just Sayin

No emotion, no hate, just cold logic based on my education and degree. The audio industry keeps perpetuating myths based on subjective results that are non repeatable and therefore do not exist no matter how badly the subjectivist implores that its fact. It simply isn't.

 

[3db]

Why are some of the most fervent wire supporters so poor at writing?

Guilty as charged.

 

[Wildings]

No emotion, no hate, just cold logic based on my education and degree. The audio industry keeps perpetuating myths based on subjective results that are non repeatable and therefore do not exist no matter how badly the subjectivist implores that its fact. It simply isn't.

I have reluctantly come to believe, for the most part, since encountering this menagerie of misanthropes, that if it can be heard it should be able to be measured. I also believe that some responses to the mystery and moonbeam believers are more antoginistic and personal than is desirable on forum for the exchange of ideas. I think some neophytes land here without realizing the focus and just engage seeing "Audio" in the name...perhaps with just a single question in mind. Can be a learning experience for them, or an occasion for increasing BP meds. Jerry Springer does get the viewers though, if you get my drift!

 

[Swerd]

I have reluctantly come to believe, for the most part, since encountering this menagerie of misanthropes, that if it can be heard it should be able to be measured…

Yes, if it can be heard it can also be measured. There are those (the so-called subjectivists) who believe that human hearing is so good that we can hear what cannot be measured. Despite those claims, I haven't ever seen that to be the case.

Menagerie of misanthropes? We are tough on those who take the subjective side of "The Great Debate" because:

1. Their beliefs are not at all backed by science.
   
2. Their beliefs are usually learned from from audio dealers, manufacturers, or audio review publications, who also make excessive profits by selling or advertising overpriced gear. The very worst of these make or sell overpriced cables.
   
3. Occasionally, some subjectivists come to AH intent on provoking inflamed debates over this. They are basically trolls, and are not treated kindly by AH regulars. Sometimes there are new comers who are unaware of this. They can get rough treatment. If you feel like this happened to you, stick around a while longer and the rough treatment will soon end.

 

[Wildings]

Yes, if it can be heard it can also be measured. There are those (the so-called subjectivists) who believe that human hearing is so good that we can hear what cannot be measured. Despite those claims, I haven't ever seen that to be the case.

Menagerie of misanthropes? We are tough on those who take the subjective side of "The Great Debate" because:

1. Their beliefs are not at all backed by science.
   
2. Their beliefs are usually learned from from audio dealers, manufacturers, or audio review publications, who also make excessive profits by selling or advertising overpriced gear. The very worst of these make or sell overpriced cables.
   
3. Occasionally, some subjectivists come to AH intent on provoking inflamed debates over this. They are basically trolls, and are not treated kindly by AH regulars. Sometimes there are new comers who are unaware of this. They can get rough treatment. If you feel like this happened to you, stick around a while longer and the rough treatment will soon end.

Thank you. I have learned some things here, and my thinking has evolved....had no idea re The Great Divide. I did not evolve into curmudgeonhood by requiring a Safe Place or Crying Closet!

 

[Mikado463]

Yes, if it can be heard it can also be measured. There are those (the so-called subjectivists) who believe that human hearing is so good that we can hear what cannot be measured. Despite those claims, I haven't ever seen that to be the case.

Menagerie of misanthropes? We are tough on those who take the subjective side of "The Great Debate" because:

1. Their beliefs are not at all backed by science.
   
2. Their beliefs are usually learned from from audio dealers, manufacturers, or audio review publications, who also make excessive profits by selling or advertising overpriced gear. The very worst of these make or sell overpriced cables.
   
3. Occasionally, some subjectivists come to AH intent on provoking inflamed debates over this. They are basically trolls, and are not treated kindly by AH regulars. Sometimes there are new comers who are unaware of this. They can get rough treatment. If you feel like this happened to you, stick around a while longer and the rough treatment will soon end.

What are you, the 'Company Spokesperson' ? ....... LOL !

 

[Speedskater]

Yes, if it can be heard it can also be measured. There are those (the so-called subjectivists) who believe that human hearing is so good that we can hear what cannot be measured. Despite those claims, I haven't ever seen that to be the case.
.................................................................................

If you are to make it DIFFERENCES rather than 'things' then yes. But humans often describe sounds in ways that have no measurable properties. But in every case, if an audiophile can hear a difference, then that difference can be measured.

I wonder way audiophiles never put that claim to the test?

 

[Wildings]

What are you, the 'Company Spokesperson' ? ....... LOL !

He would be a good candidate if there were such a position, and preferable to some obstrepersous and prolific others!

 

[Swerd]

I did not evolve into curmudgeonhood by requiring a Safe Place or Crying Closet!

How do you define curmudgeonhood? Is it age or state-of-mind? I'm now 69 years old, retired, and I don't suffer over-confident fools. I'm softer on more naive fools.

I've liked audio since the late 1960s, first bought a stereo in the early 70s. As life interfered, I ignored the newer audio stuff and made do with my older gear until right around 2000, when I got back into it. It was a real eye-opener at first. Voo-doo and hear-say seemed to dominate the industry. With some time, I realized that common sense did still exist in audio, but you had to look for it.

I spent a career as a lab scientist, biochemistry and molecular biology. As a young grad student, I had to learn, the hard way, how to tell the difference between good evidence and wishful thinking. No one is born knowing that. I have some favorite quotes that apply to the The Great Audio Debate:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. (Richard Feynman)

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. (Mark Twain)

This is America – everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. (Daniel Patrick Moynehan)​

 

[Wildings]

How do you define curmudgeonhood? Is it age or state-of-mind? I'm now 69 years old, retired, and I don't suffer over-confident fools. I'm softer on more naive fools.

I've liked audio since the late 1960s, first bought a stereo in the early 70s. As life interfered, I ignored the newer audio stuff and made do with my older gear until right around 2000, when I got back into it. It was a real eye-opener at first. Voo-doo and hear-say seemed to dominate the industry. With some time, I realized that common sense did still exist in audio, but you had to look for it.

I spent a career as a lab scientist, biochemistry and molecular biology. As a young grad student, I had to learn, the hard way, how to tell the difference between good evidence and wishful thinking. No one is born knowing that. I have some favorite quotes that apply to the The Great Audio Debate:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. (Richard Feynman)

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. (Mark Twain)

This is America – everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. (Daniel Patrick Moynehan)​

Curmudgeonhood is a state of mind, I arrived at 50 and at 69 am now well practiced. Good post. My first "sound system" was the bequest when I was 8 of my Dad's old wind up Victrola and 78 collection...have been trying to upgrade ever since.

 

[Mikado463]

How do you define curmudgeonhood? Is it age or state-of-mind? I'm now 69 years old, retired, and I don't suffer over-confident fools. I'm softer on more naive fools.

I've liked audio since the late 1960s, first bought a stereo in the early 70s. As life interfered, I ignored the newer audio stuff and made do with my older gear until right around 2000, when I got back into it. It was a real eye-opener at first. Voo-doo and hear-say seemed to dominate the industry. With some time, I realized that common sense did still exist in audio, but you had to look for it.

I spent a career as a lab scientist, biochemistry and molecular biology. As a young grad student, I had to learn, the hard way, how to tell the difference between good evidence and wishful thinking. No one is born knowing that. I have some favorite quotes that apply to the The Great Audio Debate:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. (Richard Feynman)

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. (Mark Twain)

This is America – everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. (Daniel Patrick Moynehan)​

Do you believe in the power of 'psychoacoustics' ?

 

[jinjuku]

had no idea re The Great Divide.

There is no 'Great Divide'. There are only people that won't validate their hearing, presume they can't be biased, and won't submit to bias controlled evaluation that would track with their sighted listening evaluations.

 

[slipperybidness]

How do you define curmudgeonhood? Is it age or state-of-mind? I'm now 69 years old, retired, and I don't suffer over-confident fools. I'm softer on more naive fools.

I've liked audio since the late 1960s, first bought a stereo in the early 70s. As life interfered, I ignored the newer audio stuff and made do with my older gear until right around 2000, when I got back into it. It was a real eye-opener at first. Voo-doo and hear-say seemed to dominate the industry. With some time, I realized that common sense did still exist in audio, but you had to look for it.

I spent a career as a lab scientist, biochemistry and molecular biology. As a young grad student, I had to learn, the hard way, how to tell the difference between good evidence and wishful thinking. No one is born knowing that. I have some favorite quotes that apply to the The Great Audio Debate:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. (Richard Feynman)

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. (Mark Twain)

This is America – everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. (Daniel Patrick Moynehan)​

Some good quotes and some good advice there!

In practice, at work, I will often have someone else do a particular investigation or analysis, exactly because I know exactly what to expect and it is too easy for me to bias the outcome. Hand it to someone that does not know what to expect, so you get unbiased feedback and info.

 

[Swerd]

Do you believe in the power of 'psychoacoustics' ?

To me, psychoacoustics is the branch of psychology interested in the perception of sound and its physiological effects.

There's a good Wikipedia entry on this. See the Background section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

To answer your question, yes, psychoacoutics is both real and powerful.

 

[Mikado463]

To me, psychoacoustics is the branch of psychology interested in the perception of sound and its physiological effects.

There's a good Wikipedia entry on this. See the Background section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

To answer your question, yes, psychoacoutics is both real and powerful.

Ok, therefore it's safe to say that is the power to which ridiculous spending on wire is driven by (so many) !

 

[Swerd]

Ok, therefore it's safe to say that is the power to which ridiculous spending on wire is driven by (so many) !

Yes .

I've always wondered just how many people really do fall for that. I don't know for sure. Even though most people still want to save a buck, there seems to be enough sales to keep those exotic wire makers in business. If you've ever gone to one of those audio shows, you'll see lots of people talking excitedly about exotic wires.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have reluctantly come to believe, for the most part, since encountering this menagerie of misanthropes, that if it can be heard it should be able to be measured. I also believe that some responses to the mystery and moonbeam believers are more antoginistic and personal than is desirable on forum for the exchange of ideas. I think some neophytes land here without realizing the focus and just engage seeing "Audio" in the name...perhaps with just a single question in mind. Can be a learning experience for them, or an occasion for increasing BP meds. Jerry Springer does get the viewers though, if you get my drift!

LOL love menagerie of misanthropes (and curmudgeon I've used for myself, too). How much time did you spend reading up on the forum of such postings in the past, tho? Just because someone new pops in and wants to bring up the cable nonsense some more, doesn't mean Politenessman is going to save the day with his steel butter tongs (or his steel hanky).

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... The audio industry keeps perpetuating myths based on subjective results that are non repeatable ....

And does not stand up to proper testing.