The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[RichB]

The Outlaw is kind of small looking - about 4.5" tall vs 7" tall on the Denon. The Outlaw also has a bunch of EQ and DSP, which is not as simplistic as the Denon AVP, which has none (tailoring to the less-is-more crowd ).

I think the Denon AVP looks a lot more "high-end" compared to the Outlaw.

Empty space = quality in processors as well as speakers.

I like the Denon product and its about time that a processor was not priced more than the equivalent AVR when they essentially took out the amps and added balanced outs.

Less can be more, certainly most products measure better with processing disengaged. Removing ISF video processors. composite and component video is also a less is more situation.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Empty space = quality in processors as well as speakers.

I like the Denon product and its about time that a processor was not priced more than the equivalent AVR when they essentially took out the amps and added balanced outs.

Less can be more, certainly most products measure better with processing disengaged. Removing ISF video processors. composite and component video is also a less is more situation.

- Rich

Larger Pre-pro Case = More Ventilation and more High-end look.

I bet a lot of people have never even heard of this Denon Pre-pro!

Of course, I wouldn't buy it only because it lacks Audyssey Dynamic EQ.

But it seems a lot of Separates guy don't even want any kind of EQ at all.

 

[RichB]

Larger Pre-pro Case = More Ventilation and more High-end look.

I bet a lot of people have never even heard of this Denon Pre-pro!

In that case, the Denon case is too small

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah, good points.

Well, if I didn't want all those EQ, DSP, Features, and amps of AVR, I think I would want something like the $800 Denon DN-700AVP.

http://denonpro.com/products/view3/dn-700avp

Interesting. I wish I had known about the Denon when I was shopping for a pre-pro (assuming it was available in 2014). If I had the choice I probably would have chosen the Denon.

 

[Mikado463]

But it seems a lot of Separates guy don't even want any kind of EQ at all.

here's a view from a large contingent of 'separate guys' ..........

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25255-Tone-controls

and another .............

http://www.audioshark.org/general-audio-discussion-15/tone-controls-good-bad-14087.html

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

here's a view from a large contingent of 'separate guys' ..........

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25255-Tone-controls

and another .............

http://www.audioshark.org/general-audio-discussion-15/tone-controls-good-bad-14087.html

We Don't Need No Education...We Don't Need No Tone Controls...

I can completely understand since I used to hate all EQ/Tone Controls with a passion.

That was one reason I absolutely loved the Bryston BP6 and Acurus RL11 Preamps - no tone controls at all - only had source inputs, volume, and L/R Balance controls. These things could last 100 years.

So a clean audiophile-looking Pre-pro with nothing more than Direct Mode and Discrete 7.1 DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD like the $800 Denon DN-700-AVP minimalist Pre-pro would have been absolutely perfect for me as well.

@TLS Guy would love this Denon Pre-pro since he abhors all EQ, DSP, and Tone Controls.

 

[TechHDS]

We Don't Need No Education...We Don't Need No Tone Controls...

I can completely understand since I used to hate all EQ/Tone Controls with a passion.

That was one reason I absolutely loved the Bryston BP6 and Acurus RL11 Preamps - no tone controls at all - only had source inputs, volume, and L/R Balance controls. These things could last 100 years.

So a clean audiophile-looking Pre-pro with nothing more than Direct Mode and Discrete 7.1 DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD like the $800 Denon DN-700-AVP minimalist Pre-pro would have been absolutely perfect for me as well.

@TLS Guy would love this Denon Pre-pro since he abhors all EQ, DSP, and Tone Controls.

Lol, definitely one of your better post. " We Don't Need No Education we don't need no tone controls" lmao!!. Do I sense a little Pink Floyd, Brick in the Wall? lol..Can't argue with being logical, not to be miss understood with the logics of cassette decks and reel to reel. 100 years huh? You think them SS transistors, diodes and DAC chips will last that long? I say 50 years tops. Then back to the dust from which they came. . A truly perfect system would include truly perfect room treatments to achieve all this you guys are talkin about. Not just with separates, you would just about have to sound proof room to start with all the room treatments included think about what the walls would look like. Try bring home a date, she would think your serial.. Good Thread ADTG, people with closed minds can learn a thing or two you know. Picking up some good tips on gear and solutions.

 

[Fastnbulbous]

Theoretically a clean signal path from the source should not have much of an audible difference (when you take out DSP and such). However when I switched from a Harman/Kardon AVR to a 2 channel NAD receiver, it made a heck of a difference. So I guess the H/K was f-ing up the signal.

When I upgraded from the NAD receiver to NAD separates with a more powerful amp, I did NOT notice an audible difference. Perhaps if I were to play the Wharfedale Opus 3s at higher volumes in a bigger room, but not for my needs. The NAD amp had since died and I replaced with a Crown XLS 1502, which I connect directly from my iFi iCAN pro via balanced cable. So the NAD pre/pro goes unused unless I need to use the CD player or tape deck, which is rare.

 

[TechHDS]

Theoretically a clean signal path from the source should not have much of an audible difference (when you take out DSP and such). However when I switched from a Harman/Kardon AVR to a 2 channel NAD receiver, it made a heck of a difference. So I guess the H/K was f-ing up the signal.

When I upgraded from the NAD receiver to NAD separates with a more powerful amp, I did NOT notice an audible difference. Perhaps if I were to play the Wharfedale Opus 3s at higher volumes in a bigger room, but not for my needs. The NAD amp had since died and I replaced with a Crown XLS 1502, which I connect directly from my iFi iCAN pro via balanced cable. So the NAD pre/pro goes unused unless I need to use the CD player or tape deck, which is rare.

Been reading up and hearing a lot of good things on Crown amps that XLS 1502 has very nice reviews on it. Oh on the H/K, I do believe that some gear be it a two channel or AVR, can have a colored sound, geared towards a certain Market. I agree yeah some gear can screw up the signal between the source before it even reaches your speaker's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

when I switched from a Harman/Kardon AVR to a 2 channel NAD receiver, it made a heck of a difference. So I guess the H/K was f-ing up the signal.

When I upgraded from the NAD receiver to NAD separates with a more powerful amp, I did NOT notice an audible difference.

The HK AVR might have been processing some EQ or DSP.

I used to own a $500 50WPC HK AVR and I compared it to class-A analogs from Bryston and Acurus. In Direct mode, I couldn’t tell the difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Been reading up and hearing a lot of good things on Crown amps that XLS 1502 has very nice reviews on it.

I think the Crown Pro amps are fine sounding. But I think the Separates crowd will endorse Pro amps as much as they will endorse AVRs.

 

[TechHDS]

I wasn't knocking H/K, I had several H/K units before the change up. I liked all of them, their AVR's weren't as intuitive user-friendly as some other's but they also had some cool creature features to. H/K gave honest output rating on their units. Wish I hadn't sold off my 3490 that unit with pre-amp outs, even without a added amp it performed well for 2 Channel. If I remember it had a sub out too. Good solid value unit.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wasn't knocking H/K, I had several H/K units before the change up. I liked all of them, their AVR's weren't as intuitive user-friendly as some other's but they also had some cool creature features to. H/K gave honest output rating on their units. Wish I hadn't sold off my 3490 that unit with pre-amp outs, even without a added amp it performed well for 2 Channel. If I remember it had a sub out too. Good solid value unit.

The HK AVR I bought was around 1990. I heard HK’s quality control went downhill later on.

One thing I knew for sure back then - the Auto Room EQ in the HK AVR was 100% pure crap; it made me abhor all EQ even more because it sounded so horrible.

And it wasn’t until around 8 years ago when I finally tried Audyssey Dynamic EQ. Since then I would never buy anything without Dynamic EQ,

Since then I’ve heard other Auto EQ systems. I still think that the good Room EQ at least don’t screw up the sound. They may improve the sound depending on the room/speakers. They may objectively improve the frequency response. They may subjectively not improve the sound. But they at least don’t screw up the sound like the bad EQ systems.

But that HK AVR (which still works today) has the crappy EQ system.

 

[DD66000]

HK QC most certainly dropped after Sidney passed on. And there was a huge difference between the 2004 AVR 635 and the AVR 3600 as far as SQ goes. And the autoEQ in the 635 was superior to the EQ in the 3600.
But no matter what room correction flavor one uses (I've used HK, Dirac 2 ch & 7 ch) Audyssey depends on the room, they can be good, or they can suck the life out of the music. As one youtuber just discovered on his full Klipsch/SVS HT.
In the room I'm currently using I don't use any room correction. With the Dirac on it just sucks out the pleasure of the music.

As for separates, I prefer them. Currently using Parasound P7/A21 combo for stereo with an added HCA2205A for HT with an Oppo 105d used as a digital processor/DAC.

 

[PENG]

But no matter what room correction flavor one uses (I've used HK, Dirac 2 ch & 7 ch) Audyssey depends on the room, they can be good, or they can suck the life out of the music. As one youtuber just discovered on his full Klipsch/SVS HT.
In the room I'm currently using I don't use any room correction. With the Dirac on it just sucks out the pleasure of the music.

Of course, but I would add that it also could be the operator who conducts the setup. Some will follow instructions to the letter, some will do that but may/would also try to experiment a little to find the best result, and some may have done the wrong thing while thinking they were following instructions. All that may matters more, or less depending on the speakers, and the rooms.

 

[DD66000]

Of course, but I would add that it also could be the operator who conducts the setup. Some will follow instructions to the letter, some will do that but may/would also try to experiment a little to find the best result, and some may have done the wrong thing while thinking they were following instructions. All that may matters more, or less depending on the speakers, and the rooms.

The room I'm using is more defined with physical boundaries than the previous room was. Parquet flooring instead of tile, with the same thick multi layered area rugs. Plus multiple floor and ceiling elevations in the ground floor with the LR being 2 & 3 steps higher than the areas around it.
The Dirac does work, setup run twice, but its overall sound is duller compared to it being off in this room.
AutoEQ is most certainly not the be all to end all.

 

[M Code]

The HK AVR I bought was around 1990. I heard HK’s quality control went downhill later on.

One thing I knew for sure back then - the Auto Room EQ in the HK AVR was 100% pure crap; it made me abhor all EQ even more because it sounded so horrible.

And it wasn’t until around 8 years ago when I finally tried Audyssey Dynamic EQ. Since then I would never buy anything without Dynamic EQ,

Since then I’ve heard other Auto EQ systems. I still think that the good Room EQ at least don’t screw up the sound. They may improve the sound depending on the room/speakers. They may objectively improve the frequency response. They may subjectively not improve the sound. But they at least don’t screw up the sound like the bad EQ systems.

But that HK AVR (which still works today) has the crappy EQ system.

HK 1st implemented an auto setup SW in 2002 but it was just for level settings. Next in the lower AVRs using a Cirrus Logic DSP they used the generic Cirrus EQ solution as it was royalty-free. The big step forward was when Dr.Toole and his team developed what many consider to be the best Room EQ SW but this required significant DSP resources so HK went with the TI DSPs. Then JBL used the same EQ SW in some of their higher end components by Synthesis..

Just my $0.02..

 

[Mikado463]

I think the Crown Pro amps are fine sounding. But I think the Separates crowd will endorse Pro amps as much as they will endorse AVRs.

part of that is the Class D topology which has not been widely accepted by the 'audiophile' crowd. Myself I've heard Class D done quite well actually and think given the size / weight advantage it has is for sure a plus in certain situations.

 

[PENG]

The room I'm using is more defined with physical boundaries than the previous room was. Parquet flooring instead of tile, with the same thick multi layered area rugs. Plus multiple floor and ceiling elevations in the ground floor with the LR being 2 & 3 steps higher than the areas around it.
The Dirac does work, setup run twice, but its overall sound is duller compared to it being off in this room.
AutoEQ is most certainly not the be all to end all.

Understood, just want to note that the "duller" thing is subjective, and could be due to reduction of some of the "peaks" when Dirac is enabled.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With the Dirac on it just sucks out the pleasure of the music.

As for separates, I prefer them.

I think Dirac (Emotiva), ARC (Anthem), Audyssey XT32, and Lyngdorf (McIntosh) do nothing subjectively to improve the sound quality when I compared on vs off.

Objectively, the FR graphs seem to look flatter. But I guess I don’t prefer it too flat.

So I don’t see the point of using these Room Correction software because of my experience (at home, family and friends’ houses, dealers).

What I do love is the Audyssey Dynamic EQ software, which boosts the bass and seems to make the sound significantly more lively for me.

Some people feel that Audyssey DEQ does too much, while some feel it doesn’t do enough. But you can adjust the magnitude of the DEQ with both the off-set level and the digital Trim Levels.

Although I think most good separates cost significantly more than AVR and I hate parting ways with any amount of money, I do feel good about owning “separates”.

My theory with separates vs AVR is that sound quality isn’t the only factor. Feeling good about your System that you look at everyday and use everyday is important.