Audioquest v. Monprice Comparison

[Beave]

Irv is right about the sampling rates. 44.1kHz sampling is the cd standard, and it's 44.100, not a rounded-off 44.056kHz. 44.056 is another rate that was sometimes used in the early days, mostly when audio was tied to video.

For example, in the 90s, those Big Ugly Dishes (BUDs) that received C-band analog standard def video had some scrambled transmissions where the audio was digital and was placed in the blanking interval of the video signal. That system used 44.056kHz sampling rate.

The first digital transmissions of video via cable and/or satellite had options for 44.100 or 44.056 sampling for the digital audio. Soon they also included 48kHz sampling as an option, and as the years passed, the 44.056 quietly seemed to go away, leaving 44.1kHz and 48kHz as the primary options available.

 

[highfigh]

Apple PIE is my favorite !

It's the bestest!

 

[highfigh]

I double-checked just to be sure, and CDs actually use 44,100 samples per second, so your statement above about it being actually 44,056 is incorrect. I have no doubt there were other sampling rates commonly used in early digital recording, especially prior to the Redbook being published. For example, early Telarc digital recordings used the Soundstream digital recorder which used a 50KHz sampling rate. Given Johnny's habit of being entirely inaccurate, I think it's important the rest of us are accurate.

It's actually not MY statement, it's what I was told over the years and what the link shows- 30 frames/second is used as the number for general use but actual rate is 29.97, which shows that it's close enough for Jazz. It's really just academic- debating it won't change anything but that Cardinal Peak link seemed accurate enough. (you read it, right?)

It was well over 30 years ago- I'm probably smudging facts around because I had done some PCM recording and the info from that stayed in my memory with the CD stuff.

It's like cats and dogs living together!

 

[highfigh]

Irv is right about the sampling rates. 44.1kHz sampling is the cd standard, and it's 44.100, not a rounded-off 44.056kHz. 44.056 is another rate that was sometimes used in the early days, mostly when audio was tied to video.

For example, in the 90s, those Big Ugly Dishes (BUDs) that received C-band analog standard def video had some scrambled transmissions where the audio was digital and was placed in the blanking interval of the video signal. That system used 44.056kHz sampling rate.

The first digital transmissions of video via cable and/or satellite had options for 44.100 or 44.056 sampling for the digital audio. Soon they also included 48kHz sampling as an option, and as the years passed, the 44.056 quietly seemed to go away, leaving 44.1kHz and 48kHz as the primary options available.

Hey, man! Those big dishes were great! Our next door neighbor hated ours, but around 1980, shows like Not Necessarily The News and tons of music videos were easy to find and enjoy.

As the link I provided shows, the 44.056 rate was from when PCM was recorded on videotape, which makes it more or less obsolete, but still accurate.

BTW- if we're going to nit pik terminology, going to 44.1K from 41.056K is rounding up-there's no good reason to round down to the latter spec because rounding is done to reduce clutter by removing insignificant digits.

 

[RichB]

My CDs sounded too slow until I speed it up to 44100.

- Rich

 

[Mikado463]

My CDs sounded too slow until I speed it up to 44100.

- Rich

LMAO, the fact that this is even being debated is comical, especially given that the same group argues about the inability to 'hear' differences in 'wire' ............. thank God I drink .....

 

[lovinthehd]

LMAO, the fact that this is even being debated is comical, especially given that the same group argues about the inability to 'hear' differences in 'wire' ............. thank God I drink .....

What is even funnier is you think you can hear differences in wire (suited to the electrical task). @jinjuku

 

[Mikado463]

What is even funnier is you think you can hear differences in wire (suited to the electrical task). @jinjuku

lovin, you and I are too freakin old, we don't count !

 

[lovinthehd]

lovin, you and I are too freakin old, we don't count !

Even younger that wasn't a thing...

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I never wrote that EDID is for error correction- it's part of the 'handshake'- if it doesn't meet the requirements, we're not going to see video or hear the audio, or both. It's used to identify the device characteristics, so one piece will know how to send the signal (resolution, aspect ratio, etc).

Analog vs digital has NOTHING to do with the disc being stamped into aluminum! NOTHING! You're trying to make one definition of 'analog' apply to the physical disc when everyone else is using 'analog' or 'digital' when referring to the signal. You might want to use 'tangible' when referring to the disc.

An analog signal is continuously variable, with no breaks in, for lack of a better term, the waveform. Can it have sections where no variation occurs? Of course- that's part of being variable. Maybe the stream of information is better. Digital SIGNAL is discrete pieces of information that are assembled in groups of bits that have some meaning (again, binary digits, which are either ones or zeros, on or off), called 'words', in a way that they can be read by the converter and re-made into an analog signal, as it impacted the mics or entered the mixer from the electronic instruments. Morse code is groups of light flashes, dashes and dots, short and long 'pings' of sound, that have meaning. A continuous string of these dots and dashes, etc can be assembled but without pauses between the words, it takes longer to decipher the message. Jumble them together and it's jibberish unless some kind of pre-determined key is used in the event that the order of the words is changed, possibly to prevent others using the information. CDs use 16 bit encoding of signal that was sampled 44.1KHz (actually, 44,056) times per second. DATA from each frame is distributed throughout the disc, but the disc in Orange Book is limited to 99 separate tracks and that precludes randomly placed data.

PCM recording on tape uses/used 14 OR 16 bit- if 16 bit was used, S/N was better but there was no data for error correction and if 14 bit was used, two bits were available, called 'parity bits'. If you look at the video from a PCM recorder, you would see columns of lines that vary with the signal content, separated by a thin gap of noise and at 14 bit- two columns are seen at the right side, neither with the same density of activity, mostly dark. These are used for error correction and it's not a fixed frame- it, too, changes with the signal.

If you break up the data on a CD in the middle of each word and jumble it all together, will it come out as music? No, it won't. Why? Because it wasn't intended to be placed on the disc, randomly. That's how data is stored on a hard drive, but that was too expensive to use at when CDs were developed and scanning from the center to the outside of a disc (linear scanning) was an easier proposition. However, that method doesn't make it 'analog'. The first Sony CD player retailed for $900- a hard drive at the time was far more more expensive.

You, yourself, wrote that the data is stored in digital form and must be converted to analog- again, it's not the medium that makes a CD digital or an LP analog- being read with light makes digital storage possible but a stylus in a groove can't track high speed data as anything close to square waves, on/off pulses. At a slow speed, with some way to prevent the stylus being damaged, it's definitely possible to store a digital signal on a disc that needs physical contact to be read at a slow speed.

https://www.philips.com/a-w/research/technologies/cd/technology.html

Here's a link to info about the Reed-Solomon Cross-interleaved Coding-

https://www.usna.edu/Users/math/wdj/_files/documents/reed-sol.htm

Analog vs Digital *Signals* ... where we are talking ;about two different ways of storing and reproducing music via electronics ... is one aspect of duscussion, obviously.

But why do we call it "analog"? All digital data is stored, recovered, processed, (and converted to and from analog signals) via analog means. It is not helpful to think there are little digital elves in the CPU moving bits and not resistors, transistors, capacitors and so on doing the work in the analog domain.

I know you know this, highfigh. But what about others who come to forums to learn? It's a simple concept but if someone doesn't grasp it, Digital Audio will be far more mysterious than it should be.

This is a critical thing to understand if you want to understand Digital Audio. You must be able to make the distinction so as to understand how errors arise in transmission and if they can be corrected, for example.

In other words, critical to understand if and why a given HDMI cable is suitable for the job. You know, the topic of this thread.

RE: EDID ... was in response to "if HDMI is a one-way protocol, explain EDID ..."

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Every Physics class I took covered Electricity and in that section, we covered Ohm's Law. What engineering school DOESN'T require previous or concurrent Physics study in a curriculum?

Most BCompSc degree admission requirements are one Science (Chemistry, Biology, Physics) in HS. Maths are generally more important (Calculus, etc).

When I was in HS you needed 7 credits minimum each year to graduate (Min 7/yr and 21 total in 10~12 for a HS Diploma). You had time to take 9 classes, but not 10.

If you took all the Science and Maths available you wouldn't have time for the other prerequisites to graduate (2 English, History, PhysEd) plus your one Language (not a graduation prerequisite, but at the time all Universities required a second language to enter, it's not mandatory now. I could use French, my oldest sister had to take Latin).

That meant one of Chem, Physics or Biology had to be dropped if you took all the Maths and the minimums to graduate each year. And it meant no classes in Music, or Metal Shop, or any of the other less-academic offerings like Art, Drama, etc. because there simply was no time. So, outing yourself as a nerd at 13, basically.

And yes, they did offer Comp Sci back in those ancient times.

Since you made your choices at the start of 9th Grade ... even though 9th G credits don't matter for your diploma, they set the prerequisites for what you can take in 10th Grade ... I would have been 13 ... there were plenty of students who didn't choose Physics but decided to enter Comp Sci in college. In practical terms you either chose Biology or Physics, since Chem was mandatory in 9th and 10th.

 

[highfigh]

Most BCompSc degree admission requirements are one Science (Chemistry, Biology, Physics) in HS. Maths are generally more important (Calculus, etc).

When I was in HS you needed 7 credits minimum each year to graduate (Min 7/yr and 21 total in 10~12 for a HS Diploma). You had time to take 9 classes, but not 10.

If you took all the Science and Maths available you wouldn't have time for the other prerequisites to graduate (2 English, History, PhysEd) plus your one Language (not a graduation prerequisite, but at the time all Universities required a second language to enter, it's not mandatory now. I could use French, my oldest sister had to take Latin).

That meant one of Chem, Physics or Biology had to be dropped if you took all the Maths and the minimums to graduate each year. And it meant no classes in Music, or Metal Shop, or any of the other less-academic offerings like Art, Drama, etc. because there simply was no time. So, outing yourself as a nerd at 13, basically.

And yes, they did offer Comp Sci back in those ancient times.

Since you made your choices at the start of 9th Grade ... even though 9th G credits don't matter for your diploma, they set the prerequisites for what you can take in 10th Grade ... I would have been 13 ... there were plenty of students who didn't choose Physics but decided to enter Comp Sci in college. In practical terms you either chose Biology or Physics, since Chem was mandatory in 9th and 10th.

I have read that some schools are thinking of requiring Physics and placing it before Chemistry and most other science courses because EVERYTHING is governed by Physics. 7 credits per year? That's a really light load and I bet a lot of people who went to college got a rude awakening when they were required to take more classes. When I went to college, I think the minimum course load was 17 credits and we didn't take the electives for two years, like the state schools- we were immediately immersed in classes that applied to the field we were studying. That way, we covered the courses that would normally qualify as a Bachelor's Degree in the Associate Degree program and receiving their Bachelor's covered the material of a Master's at state schools. That school's goal was to get people trained and into their field- the electives can be learned later or concurrently.

We took Biology, Chemistry AND Physics, various Math classes and since we had a great shop program (and I was interested), I took woodworking, metal working and four years of drafting. Any computer classes involved punch cards or tape and Interactive Fortran or Cobol.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I have read that some schools are thinking of requiring Physics and placing it before Chemistry and most other science courses because EVERYTHING is governed by Physics. 7 credits per year? That's a really light load and I bet a lot of people who went to college got a rude awakening when they were required to take more classes. When I went to college, I think the minimum course load was 17 credits and we didn't take the electives for two years, like the state schools- we were immediately immersed in classes that applied to the field we were studying. That way, we covered the courses that would normally qualify as a Bachelor's Degree in the Associate Degree program and receiving their Bachelor's covered the material of a Master's at state schools. That school's goal was to get people trained and into their field- the electives can be learned later or concurrently.

We took Biology, Chemistry AND Physics, various Math classes and since we had a great shop program (and I was interested), I took woodworking, metal working and four years of drafting. Any computer classes involved punch cards or tape and Interactive Fortran or Cobol.

7 classes to graduate each year 10~12, and 21 in those three years to graduate with a High School diploma.

You could never get to College on that number of Credits, you would have to go to Community College (full time 9AM~4PM) or night school if you somehow realized you now wanted to go to a University after HS.

Most College Diplomas in Canada require 4 years of study, 5 full classes per year*, minimum, and most students end up taking more to fill out the prerequisites and mandatory senior classes required. There are differences between Universities and how they count class credit, so "17 credits' is only a useful class load description if you are comparing to other USA Colleges. Canada, the UK, Europe, International use different methods to measure academic progress.

But I think I remember a full class being 6 credits and two years minimum before you can enter the discipline of your choice, so minimum 60 credits plus another minimum 60 senior credits to graduate. If your first two years aren't good enough, they will decline your admission to the program and you might end up with a 3-year BA, which is of course (almost) useless.**

In my 4-year diploma program I needed to maintain an Honors grade in every class (no exceptions).

* Or 10 half-classes, or some combination of full and half classes that equals 5 full classes, which is considered full-time study. If you want to take 6 classes, you need permission of the Dean's Office, and good marks before you ask. You can take one full class each in Intersession and Summer Session, and that's what I recommend if 5/yr is too slow for you; you can graduate with a 4-year BA in three years (126 credits when you need 120 to graduate). If you are some kind of student work-a-holic who is also insanely bright, you could ask permission to take 7 classes, plus Intersession and Summer Session, which makes 9/yr, but if you start in May you can squeeze another round of Is/SS, for 11 classes your first year and 9 your second, graduating in two years plus the summer after HS graduation, with a 4-year BA.

** I say almost useless because as far as the job market goes, it is. But, and this is a big but, if you have a "bad BA" you still out-qualify a student with great HS marks, because, well, you have a BA and he doesn't, so you can try a second time with lots of post-secondary opportunities, once you grow up and stop partying instead of studying.

 

[RichB]

I think we should rename this this thread "What's on your mind?".

I'll start: Spring is late this year in New England. What's the weather like where you are?

OMG: I got my tax bill, 'Lizabeth this is the big one

- Rich

 

[Johnny2Bad]

How about Digital Cable measurements?

See:
http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/usb-cable-shield-resistance-technical-measurements.5662/

Hint: the Monoprice didn't fare so hot, the Audioquest much better. Kind of on topic, no?

 

[panteragstk]

I think we should rename this this thread "What's on your mind?".

I'll start: Spring is late this year in New England. What's the weather like where you are?

OMG: I got my tax bill, 'Lizabeth this is the big one

- Rich

Spring in TX can't decide if it wants to stay or not. One day 85 degrees next is 43, then back and forth...annoying.

Had to pay taxes for the first time in forever. I usually get about $200 back (thanks tiny tax breaks (children)), but not this year. Oh well...

 

[Calvert]

What has any of this to do with cables? Just sayin.......

 

[hemiram]

I've been a Monoprice customer since day one, or pretty close to it. I've never had a single issue with any of their cables. I bought a bunch of their premium HDMI cables a couple of months ago, and like always, they work fine. I have some interconnects coming from Monoprice and Amazon both right now, MP was out of a sub cable I wanted so I got it from Amazon so I didn't have to wait. I want to move my sub and the cable I have is too short by about 18". I don't remember the site I was on last night, but they claimed their "budget friendly" cables did all kinds of neat stuff, at a sane price. Sorry, like AQ, there's nothing sane about their prices. $600+ for a 2 meter phono cable isn't sane in my universe. That's a couple of decent speakers, or a new HT receiver.

 

[Verdinut]

The HDMI specification allows 1 bit error every 8 seconds with a 1080p {1920x1080 pixels} @ 60 frames/second image.

At higher image resolutions that error rate would be found in fewer seconds (however long it takes to transmit 1 billion pixels). For example for a 4K display that would be maximum allowable error rate of 1 error every 2 seconds, and for an 8K display it would be no more than 1 error per half second.

HDMI cables must be as short as possible, but no shorter (ie no stretching of cable to reach your display; cables should be able to route without stress). So choose the length carefully by measurement. (An excellent means is to use string or small diameter rope and go from source to receptor, which will soft lay like a cable should, and then measure the string).

Always good practice with any cable, this has been found to be even more important with HDMI, as the connectors (both cable and component) have proven to be weak and prone to damage. Bit errors increase with HDMI cable length.

Do not listen to anyone who claims that HDMI is a digital signal or that "bits is bits". They are wrong. ALL digital transmission is via an analog signal that represents digital data. All digital data cable is subject to the same criteria that any analog signal is subject to, and can be damaged in the same ways. So handle gently, don't bend too tightly, and in general don't treat a digital cable like it owes you money and won't pay.

I know this site in general has a lot of Monoprice love and Audioquest hate, but I've never seen an Audioquest speaker cable made of Copper Clad Aluminum, like Monoprice's 12GA speaker cable is. So, buyer beware. There are many alternative suppliers of known good cable at reasonable prices, if that's what you are looking for.

I can't buy a Monoprice HDMI cable and cut it open, like I do with many commercial cables for my own personal reference, because Monoprice charges $50 shipping for any package, no matter how small, if you live outside the US. But my trust level of Monoprice has fallen a few notches; I would want to know what I am buying before I would recommend them in the future. Maybe someone here can do so and report back.

I'm in Montreal and I frequently purchase stuff from Monoprice. I have never been charged $50 or more for shipping on anything that I bought directly from them.

As Gene said, HDMI cables either work or they don't. It's no use spending big sums of money on them. Tests were conducted several years ago in Canada and the cheap cables performed just as well as the expensive Audioquest ones.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I'm in Montreal and I frequently purchase stuff from Monoprice. I have never been charged $50 or more for shipping on anything that I bought directly from them.

As Gene said, HDMI cables either work or they don't. It's no use spending big sums of money on them. Tests were conducted several years ago in Canada and the cheap cables performed just as well as the expensive Audioquest ones.