The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are talking about mid- level gear right? I changed my vote. Entry level AVR flagships units can sound the same. That was proven to my ears about 2 years ago. Upper end gear separates hands down. Unless added gear to a Flagship AVR to compete. Umm yeah, like a nice Tube amp, for your front mains for music only and a kicka$$ multi-channel amp. Just have to find the right pre-amp with HTBP.

Mid-level AVRs vs mid-level separates and high-level AVRs vs high-level separates.

So you think high-level Separate kicks mid-level AVR's butts?

 

[TechHDS]

no smack down, just good clean fun and a little ribbing !

Smack down, was a lil over on my part. I should have posted, Hey, Hey Man! Don't make Me post up pics of my gear. You guys would be like. well at least he's trying didn't see no Bose.

 

[TechHDS]

Mid-level AVR and high-level AVR, mid-level separates and high-level separates.

I know uhu? If I could have cast votes for all three I would have.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know uhu? If I could have cast votes for all three I would have.

Don't you think when most audiophiles have the money, they will buy separates regardless of sound quality differences?

 

[panteragstk]

That sounds like a nice office setup.

I assume you mean HOME office?

Because my work office at the hospital has a 0.0 audio system.

Yup. Only office I have is at home. Working from home has it's perks...all my kids being here too isn't one of them...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The new NAD $1300 AVR isn't really giving AVRs a great name in terms of measurement specs. Most Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Sony, Onkyo AVR have SNR of > 100dB (even the $300 AVR).

Is it giving NAD a mediocre name?

But the NAD: SNR 93dB (2.83V/8 ohms).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review-test-bench

 

[Mikado463]

Don't you think when most audiophiles have the money, they will buy separates regardless of sound quality differences?

yes, in a 2 channel application.

perhaps, in a multi channel application

 

[TechHDS]

The new NAD $1300 AVR isn't really giving AVRs a great name in terms of measurement specs. Most Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Sony, Onkyo AVR have SNR of > 100dB (even the $300 AVR).

Is it giving NAD a mediocre name?

But the NAD: SNR 93dB (2.83V/8 ohms).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review-test-bench

ADTG just checked out S&V on that NAD, Specs out about what some others have done continuously load. If I remember right others test out , pretty close on a continuous load. 0.1 @ rated 8 Ohms. For 13 bills could pickup a Flagship a couple of years old on accessories4less.

 

[TechHDS]

The new NAD $1300 AVR isn't really giving AVRs a great name in terms of measurement specs. Most Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Sony, Onkyo AVR have SNR of > 100dB (even the $300 AVR).

Is it giving NAD a mediocre name?

But the NAD: SNR 93dB (2.83V/8 ohms).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review-test-bench

ADTG, Top of the morning to You. I have a question, the amperage pull, why manufacturers won't post amperage draw with AVR, or Amps? isn't that an important spec? That's two questions, I had this Power conditioner in a set-up back a few years ago. It would show how many amps at full power and continuously the amperage draw on my amp or my AVR. Now don't post up a graph of Ohms Law. Then I will have to find my book on Ohms law Book Dummies. All them squiggly lines just make my head hurt. I give that book to my friend Boudreaux. Now he walks around telling everybody he's an electrical engineer. Tells he fix dey microwave and satellite dish. But I believe he just really using that Ohms Law, book for dummies to get free beers. Cause everybody know Boudreaux never went to one of them special ed schools. .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, Top of the morning to You. I have a question, the amperage pull, why manufacturers won't post amperage draw with AVR, or Amps? isn't that an important spec? That's two questions, I had this Power conditioner in a set-up back a few years ago. It would show how many amps at full power and continuously the amperage draw on my amp or my AVR. Now don't post up a graph of Ohms Law. Then I will have to find my book on Ohms law Book Dummies. All them squiggly lines just make my head hurt. I give that book to my friend Boudreaux. Now he walks around telling everybody he's an electrical engineer. Tells he fix dey microwave and satellite dish. But I believe he just really using that Ohms Law, book for dummies to get free beers. Cause everybody know Boudreaux never went to one of them special ed schools. .

Manufacturers don’t post a lot of stuffs, but I think guys like @PENG and @3db could answer that much better than I.

Electrical engineering stuffs isn’t my cup of tea.

Personally I’m not too concerned with that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG just checked out S&V on that NAD, Specs out about what some others have done continuously load. If I remember right others test out , pretty close on a continuous load. 0.1 @ rated 8 Ohms. For 13 bills could pickup a Flagship a couple of years old on accessories4less.

Denon 3400 ($1K MSRP, $600 street):
147.6 watts x 2Ch, 8 ohms, 1% THD
176.6 watts x 2Ch, 4 ohms, 1% THD
106.1 watts x 5Ch, 8 ohms, 1% THD
80.8 watts x 7Ch, 8 ohms, 1% THD

NAD 758 AVR ($1300 MSRP):
113.6 watts x 2Ch, 8 ohms, 1%
164.3 watts x 2Ch, 4 ohms, 1%
95.3 watts x 5Ch, 8 ohms, 1%
77.8 watts x 7Ch, 8 ohms, 1%

 

[3db]

I don't know what is required from a CSA perspective as far what needs to be posted. Amperage draw would be all over the map on AVR based on how many speakers, impedance of speakers volume and volume setting assuming the input signal would be a full spectrum signal. Trying to get worst case would trip protection circuitry which will skew these results. Its not simple like a toaster or an electrical motor.

 

[PENG]

In the past, Denon (and I am sure there are others) did provide the primary current draw in their spec sheet and manuals. For example, AVR-3805 7.1A, AVR-4308 8.1A. That's at 120 V, so at the output rail, it could be around 15 to 18A total depending on the maximum rail voltage. The problem is, just like the power consumption specification, they don't tell you the conditions they based the figures on, that is, continuous, X % of rated output, or maximum output and at what load impedance, distortions level etc.

Yamaha sometimes provide two numbers, the power consumption, and the maximum power consumption that is typically > 2X the power consumption, but we still don't know anything about the duration, distortions allowed etc.

Given that there is no apparent standards they could all adhere to, our best bet to stick with bench test results, mostly by S&V and AH. The British Home Cinema choice and AVtech Miller Audio research used to do similar lab measurements but appeared to have stopped a few years ago.

 

[TechHDS]

I don't know what is required from a CSA perspective as far what needs to be posted. Amperage draw would be all over the map on AVR based on how many speakers, impedance of speakers volume and volume setting assuming the input signal would be a full spectrum signal. Trying to get worst case would trip protection circuitry which will skew these results. Its not simple like a toaster or an electrical motor.

Well my 'Emotiva, XPA-2, 1st gen @ 4 Ohms rated 500 watts X 2 channels' 0 to +3dbs On my front AVR display, pulled 4.5 to 5 amps, 5.5 on peak output, With a 4 Ohms speaker rated load. Without a good amperage pull, you gotta wimpy amp. My 'Harman/Kardon, 3490 two channel @ 120 watts X 2, @ 8 Ohms rated' front display went from '0 to 99' for volume so I matched as close as I could with my AVR display which went from 80-dbs to 0 +10, Which came out to about 85 to 90 on the 3490 front display, about 2 to 3.5 amp pull. 4 Ohm rated speaker's L/R mains for both units.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another topic within this topic is the low-cost separates like pro amps - Crown, QSC, Yamaha Amps.

Are these pro amps considered “equivalent” sounding to amps from Emotiva, Outlaw, and other amps?

Are these pro amps considered “equivalent” sounding to AVR?

 

[PENG]

Another topic within this topic is the low-cost separates like pro amps - Crown, QSC, Yamaha Amps.

Are these pro amps considered “equivalent” sounding to amps from Emotiva, Outlaw, and other amps?

Are these pro amps considered “equivalent” sounding to AVR?

I believe some are, some aren't.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I believe some are, some aren't.

Which ones aren’t? Behringer and Pyle Amps?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are the low-cost $500-700 pre-pros from Outlaw and NuForce considered equivalent sounding to the Marantz, Integra, and higher cost pre-pro?

Are these low-cost pre-pros considered equivalent sounding to $2K-$5K AVR?

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/975.html

https://www.amazon.com/NuForce-AVP-18-Preamp-Processor/dp/B00D3E576W

 

[TLS Guy]

ADTG, Top of the morning to You. I have a question, the amperage pull, why manufacturers won't post amperage draw with AVR, or Amps? isn't that an important spec? That's two questions, I had this Power conditioner in a set-up back a few years ago. It would show how many amps at full power and continuously the amperage draw on my amp or my AVR. Now don't post up a graph of Ohms Law. Then I will have to find my book on Ohms law Book Dummies. All them squiggly lines just make my head hurt. I give that book to my friend Boudreaux. Now he walks around telling everybody he's an electrical engineer. Tells he fix dey microwave and satellite dish. But I believe he just really using that Ohms Law, book for dummies to get free beers. Cause everybody know Boudreaux never went to one of them special ed schools. .

Well they do usually post the current output. It is commonly posted what the power output is into varying loads. So if you have 8 , 4 and sometimes 2 ohm power spec, then it is easy.

You need ohms law, V=IR. But you also need to know that power is the square of the current X resistance and also the square of the voltage divided by the resistance. Once you understand that you can work out max voltage and current from an amp. So into higher impedance loads, amps are more likely to be voltage limited and current limited into lower impedance loads.

 

[3db]

If you look at it logically, take the formidable amps and its power supply from an RX-A30xx series and stick it into a seperate chassis and the only parasitic drain from the power supply is a power indicator, I can not help but think that it will stand toe to toe with the likes of Outlaw etc.