The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

enjoy your Bose wave radio, you're 'out of phase' alright !

Now that’s below the belt there.

We were talking about mid-priced AVR ($1000-$1500).

No Bose allowed.

 

[RichB]

I just completed a 2-channel single-blind listening test of the Yamaha Aventage RX-A820 versus an AT522NC (NCore) amp 200 WPC. The A820 was in Pure Direct mode and both were driven from the analog outputs of the Oppo BDP-105D DAC/Player. The BDP-105 was providing volume control and the level were matched comparing the voltages with the Oppo at volume +33 (the scale is 0 to 100). The A820 was set to volume +8 to be within .2 DB.



I switched the outputs with friend and he for I and the difference was obvious even though at this volume driving the Revel M20 bookshelf speakers the power is usage is about 2 watts. The soundstage, separation, dynamics, bass, and treble were all better with the AT522NC amp direct. How much better? Enough for me

The entire signal chain is compared and there is an extra volume control and preamp function in the A820 but for this thread that is an appropriate comparison. It could be the A820 preamp or it could be its amps.

These bookshelf’s dip below 4 ohms and speakers are reactive loads there are no consistent measurements for a particular amps ability to remain linear.

The ATI522NC is not the pretest amp but it works very well. Idling and during these tests it used about 25 watts. For this two channel system, there is something elegant about the Oppo direct to amp. Perhaps, if Oppo beefed up the player a little with better bass management, they might still be with us.

Like any listening test, it means this room, these speakers, this amp and this AVR. Change anything and it may not apply. But it does mean that power is an important metric but not the only important metric.

If I can do this comparison, so can most here with the right gear. But, why on earth did I bother doing spending over 8 hours on it when I could just have googled the power ratings?

- Rich

 

[<eargiant]

Which specs in particular?

I wasn't referring to package-related performance differences; I was accusing you of liking the older transistors because of their cool-looking metal can package. I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to convince you and I'm not sure what the big deal is but this seems to have started when in my reply I said:

"There are only a few modern transistors that I believe can equal their performance but you will probably not see them in any typical or even above average consumer gear (and definitely not an AVR)." Which is factually TRUE

I also said:

"There are very few suitable TO-3P replacements available today that can match the performance specs..." Which is also factually TRUE.

Here are the particular specs you asked for:

The more than "cool-looking" Sankens in my picture-
2SC2493 - Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=60, ft=70MHz
2SA1068 - Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=60, ft=50MHz

No manufacturer that I know of currently makes the TO3 package with the above specs. I did a quick search on the Sanken site and I believe they only have one suitable TO-3P replacement (see below) at the moment but the Hfe is lower. Other reputable manufacturers may have one or two also. That's still "very few" in my book, so nothing I stated was incorrect.

2SA1186 -Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=50, ft=60 MHz
2SC2837 -Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=50, ft=70 MHz

http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/search/name.html

Are there a slew (no pun intended) of other outputs manufactured then and now that do not meet the performance specs of these transistors? YES, if you don't believe me just look through the Sanken catalog. Are there many that outperform them, YES but they probably weren't designed for audio applications.

These transistors are probably at the top range (MHz) for anything audio related. Whether or not that's overkill for audio applications is another matter but performance is performance and that's what I was referring to. Those LAPT Sankens I posted are speed demons-whether they are clad in metal or plastic or whether they were manufactured in 1980 or 2018. Which is why I said "it depends" to your original comment on transistors of yesteryear.

If you can find more TO-3P outputs that match those specs please let me know as this would be valuable information that I can relay to some hobbyists I know. Many go through great lengths to modify their heatsinks to accept the TO-3P package (in the unfortunate case of blown outputs) to maintain the designed performance of their amplifiers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just completed a 2-channel single-blind listening test of the Yamaha Aventage RX-A820 versus an AT522NC (NCore) amp 200 WPC. The A820 was in Pure Direct mode and both were driven from the analog outputs of the Oppo BDP-105D DAC/Player. The BDP-105 was providing volume control and the level were matched comparing the voltages with the Oppo at volume +33 (the scale is 0 to 100). The A820 was set to volume +8 to be withing <.2 DB.

So in this case, the ATI amp sounded better than a lower-price Yamaha 800-series AVR.

Are you planning on testing the ATI amp vs a higher price AVR like a Denon 3000 or 4000 series or Yamaha 1000 or 2000 series?

 

[lovinthehd]

I just completed a 2-channel single-blind listening test of the Yamaha Aventage RX-A820 versus an AT522NC (NCore) amp 200 WPC. The A820 was in Pure Direct mode and both were driven from the analog outputs of the Oppo BDP-105D DAC/Player. The BDP-105 was providing volume control and the level were matched comparing the voltages with the Oppo at volume +33 (the scale is 0 to 100). The A820 was set to volume +8 to be withing <.2 DB.

I've never listened to an avr at +8...or used one as a power amp. What was the detailed conclusion?

 

[RichB]

So in this case, the ATI amp sounded better than a lower-price Yamaha 800-series AVR.

Are you planning on testing the ATI amp vs a higher price AVR like a Denon 3000 or 4000 series or Yamaha 1000 or 2000 series?

Absolutely, just ship me whatever you want tested. I'll ship it back, I'm not like the others.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I've never listened to an avr at +8...or used one as a power amp. What was the detailed conclusion?

I updated the post, I had accidently hit post.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Some (fuzzy) pictures:

- Rich

 

[lovinthehd]

I updated the post, I had accidently hit post to early.

- Rich

Not the "pretest" amp, eh?

Would like a little more description of how it was better enough for you rather than the general list you provided...how was the soundstage affected? How was the treble and bass affected? etc. I'd also prefer to see a test of the avr as a whole rather than used as a power amp but it is what it is....

 

[Mikado463]

No Bose here. Enjoy your ignorance of science.

Ok then, tell us more about your gear ........

 

[Mikado463]

Now that’s below the belt there.

We were talking about mid-priced AVR ($1000-$1500).

No Bose allowed.

LOL, just pokin' a little fun at the kid, after all he's 'out of phase' alright !

no highs, no lows, gotta be Bose .............

 

[panteragstk]

I just completed a 2-channel single-blind listening test of the Yamaha Aventage RX-A820 versus an AT522NC (NCore) amp 200 WPC. The A820 was in Pure Direct mode and both were driven from the analog outputs of the Oppo BDP-105D DAC/Player. The BDP-105 was providing volume control and the level were matched comparing the voltages with the Oppo at volume +33 (the scale is 0 to 100). The A820 was set to volume +8 to be within .2 DB.

View attachment 23930

I switched the outputs with friend and he for I and the difference was obvious even though at this volume driving the Revel M20 bookshelf speakers the power is usage is about 2 watts. The soundstage, separation, dynamics, bass, and treble were all better with the AT522NC amp direct. How much better? Enough for me

The entire signal chain is compared and there is an extra volume control and preamp function in the A820 but for this thread that is an appropriate comparison. It could be the A820 preamp or it could be its amps.

These bookshelf’s dip below 4 ohms and speakers are reactive loads there are no consistent measurements for a particular amps ability to remain linear.

The ATI522NC is not the pretest amp but it works very well. Idling and during these tests it used about 25 watts. For this two channel system, there is something elegant about the Oppo direct to amp. Perhaps, if Oppo beefed up the player a little with better bass management, they might still be with us.

Like any listening test, it means this room, these speakers, this amp and this AVR. Change anything and it may not apply. But it does mean that power is an important metric but not the only important metric.

If I can do this comparison, so can most here with the right gear. But, why on earth did I bother doing spending over 8 hours on it when I could just have googled the power ratings?

- Rich

Interesting test. Thanks for taking the time to share. What do you think made the difference?

I do know @gene has measured some recent Yamaha AVRs and they didn't do well in the amp section. Particularly with 4ohm loads IIRC. Wonder if the difference you heard was as simple as that?

 

[RichB]

Not the "pretest" amp, eh?

Would like a little more description of how it was better enough for you rather than the general list you provided...how was the soundstage affected? How was the treble and bass affected? etc. I'd also prefer to see a test of the avr as a whole rather than used as a power amp but it is what it is....

The beauty is in the inside

The improvements found in the AT522NC are better defined highs so the symbols sound more extended and natural. Female vocals are clears with some fuzz removed. The bass seems deeper but not more. The sum total produces a better image with more depth and the instruments blend better. Add more clean power and control and even bookshelf speakers can sound better. Words to describe sound are limited

Long term listening the system sounds enough better to make me want to listen in the game room again. I read the reviews of the Yamaha, specs and measurements and thought the Yamaha would be good enough. It's not.

The processors on my radar are the Emotiva RMC-1 and XMC-2 (or whatever its called) and the ATI ATP16 (although I don't need that many channels for my main system).

Emotiva’s new receiver is really interesting too. Balanced outs for the Fronts and Center and Class-D amps. Interesting times.

BTW, You need power for surrounds there is a lot more music from the rears and movies like Jumaji put a freightening amount of sound out of all channels. I thought my center was coming off the wall.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Interesting test. Thanks for taking the time to share. What do you think made the difference?

I do know @gene has measured some recent Yamaha AVRs and they didn't do well in the amp section. Particularly with 4ohm loads IIRC. Wonder if the difference you heard was as simple as that?

I can't be certain with the extra preamplification but I suspect that Yamaha is primarily concerned with product that never breaks. The current limiting circuitry may be over zelous or they it may have cut corners. When you switch it into 4 ohm mode, it sounds blah even at low power. More of what I don't like about it.

It may be that a Denon of the same power, would fare better.

- Rich

 

[3db]

you obviously missed the point........ I was speaking to the 'other' parameters........

as for the Wilson speakers being garbage ?? if so, what do yours constitute ?

you obviously missed the point........ I was speaking to the 'other' parameters........

as for the Wilson speakers being garbage ?? if so, what do yours constitute ?

They are certainly more linear in their response then Wilson with a far better off axes response then Wilson can provide on axes. Translated..they sound better. You must be very in secure by the way you try to impress by name dropping. Better grab your lil blanky and stroke your equipment to make yourself feel better.

My pedestrian Yamaha decks, circa 1987 which I bought used record and play back flawlessly .

 

[lovinthehd]

The beauty is in the inside

The improvements found in the AT522NC are better defined highs so the symbols sound more extended and natural. Female vocals are clears with some fuzz removed. The bass seems deeper but not more. The sum total produces a better image with more depth and the instruments blend better. Add more clean power and control and even bookshelf speakers can sound better. Words to describe sound are limited

Long term listening the system sounds enough better to make me want to listen in the game room again. I read the reviews of the Yamaha, specs and measurements and thought the Yamaha would be good enough. It's not.

The processors on my radar are the Emotiva RMC-1 and XMC-2 (or whatever its called) and the ATI ATP16 (although I don't need that many channels for my main system).

Emotiva’s new receiver is really interesting too. Balanced outs for the Fronts and Center and Class-D amps. Interesting times.

BTW, You need power for surrounds there is a lot more music from the rears and movies like Jumaji put a freightening amount of sound out of all channels. I thought my center was coming off the wall.

- Rich

Ah, subjective experience and language, particularly with audiophiles, indeed a slippery slope. Would have liked to have been there to experience for myself. Your friend had the same conclusions?

Didn't know Emotiva was offering a receiver. Will check that out. No preouts for the surrounds or just not xlr type? Is it a fully balanced unit? Odd choice to limit the pre outs, tho. While surrounds usually don't get the same levels, altho I can't think of much beyond explosions and such and some multi-ch music that tax the surrounds....the old or new Jumanji? I have the old one on dvd and need to see if the Oppo can make dvd look better....

You use on-wall speakers?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't have to convince you and I'm not sure what the big deal is but this seems to have started when in my reply I said:

"There are only a few modern transistors that I believe can equal their performance but you will probably not see them in any typical or even above average consumer gear (and definitely not an AVR)." Which is factually TRUE

I also said:

"There are very few suitable TO-3P replacements available today that can match the performance specs..." Which is also factually TRUE.

Here are the particular specs you asked for:

The more than "cool-looking" Sankens in my picture-
2SC2493 - Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=60, ft=70MHz
2SA1068 - Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=60, ft=50MHz

No manufacturer that I know of currently makes the TO3 package with the above specs. I did a quick search on the Sanken site and I believe they only have one suitable TO-3P replacement (see below) at the moment but the Hfe is lower. Other reputable manufacturers may have one or two also. That's still "very few" in my book, so nothing I stated was incorrect.

2SA1186 -Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=50, ft=60 MHz
2SC2837 -Vceo=150V, Ic=10A, Pc=100W, Hfe=50, ft=70 MHz

http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/search/name.html

Are there a slew (no pun intended) of other outputs manufactured then and now that do not meet the performance specs of these transistors? YES, if you don't believe me just look through the Sanken catalog. Are there many that outperform them, YES but they probably weren't designed for audio applications.

These transistors are probably at the top range (MHz) for anything audio related. Whether or not that's overkill for audio applications is another matter but performance is performance and that's what I was referring to. Those LAPT Sankens I posted are speed demons-whether they are clad in metal or plastic or whether they were manufactured in 1980 or 2018. Which is why I said "it depends" to your original comment on transistors of yesteryear.

If you can find more TO-3P outputs that match those specs please let me know as this would be valuable information that I can relay to some hobbyists I know. Many go through great lengths to modify their heatsinks to accept the TO-3P package (in the unfortunate case of blown outputs) to maintain the designed performance of their amplifiers.

I wasn't referring to replacement transistors for this specific application. I was talking about new devices that have better specs (like higher power capability) in general. For example:

https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/eu/company/news/2015/09/transistor-20150923-1.html

 

[<eargiant]

I wasn't referring to replacement transistors for this specific application. I was talking about new devices that have better specs (like higher power capability) in general. For example:

https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/eu/company/news/2015/09/transistor-20150923-1.html

and I was referring to better specs (like fT), I don't know how you missed the high transition frequency (which is what they are known for) when you looked up the power capability of the Sankens I posted.

Either way, you should have just let me answer your question as to what spec I was referring to or simply stated that you were only focusing on power capability before basically accusing me of liking shiny objects and not knowing what I'm talking about.

Ease up on the trigger...

 

[yepimonfire]

For me personally separates would be a waste of money. I can buy a last year model or refurbished avr that does everything I need for under $500. Because I have efficient speakers, even lower cost avrs can easily drive my system to reference levels.

Even if one needs more amplification, you could get an avr for less cost than a pre amp that does everything I pre does for less money due to the economy of scale.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[TechHDS]

For me personally separates would be a waste of money. I can buy a last year model or refurbished avr that does everything I need for under $500. Because I have efficient speakers, even lower cost avrs can easily drive my system to reference levels.

Even if one needs more amplification, you could get an avr for less cost than a pre amp that does everything I pre does for less money due to the economy of scale.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

True 2nd hand like anything else usually the better buy in terms of cost money spent value. But Some audiophiles like that new car smell. This Thread is very interesting, and very subjective. Reading up on gear specs, which transistor, replacement or the ones that the engineer decided to use on the new unit has the better specs. Carry on fellas!, I'm going get my 2nd Cup of New Orleans' Famous French Market Coffee and Camel smoke. Just in case there isn't a misunderstanding, comes in a nice blue can, not the bag kind. Restaurant Blend. Just hope I don't spit the second cup out on the floor and on my screen laughing so hard.
I forgot to mention where the tasty famous coffee is mainly used in New Orleans the restaurant is the famous Cafe Du Monde!. If any of yous, yeah I said Yous,, Dats more than two down here in da Bayou State. You just may run into Brad Pitt, Dan Aykroyd, or even Pitts Ex ole lady Angelina Jolie.