I'm not sure I can read Stereophile any longer, even for JA's measurements

[highfigh]

I think Michael Fremer actually believes the spew that comes out of his mouth and it's entertaining while also frustrating to hear such nonsense. What makes it even less palatable is over sense of self-importance.

Though if you're going to discard everything a magazine says just bc of one writer's opinions on cables or other snake oils, then you'd also have to do the same with AVS Forum and this disgraceful interview:

That being said, I do think John Atkinson is a stand-up guy and his loudspeaker measurements are generally excellent. Every magazine has their strengths and weaknesses (Audioholics included). So it's probably sound advice to take what you find useful from each publication and discard the rest as nonsensical.

Fremer seems awfully impressed with himself.

I think the level of the person't involvement in the site/magazine has a lot to do with how their comments should be taken- if they're the head cheese and they write/say/post something that's preposterous without mentioning that it's supposed to be humorous, it falls under BS, like the green marker article- reading that made me stop reading Audio Magazine.

I don't know if you tried to use Munster's products when they started out, but the RCA plugs would become jammed on the jacks and it was common for the ground sleeve to be yanked out. It didn't matter if it was the cheap cables or the more expensive ones, but it was common. Their 1/4" plugs did the same to guitar amps and when Fender saw a high number of jacks with the guts yanked out, they issued a service bulletin stating that they wouldn't cover this repair if Monster Cables had been used.

I have been working at a house for about 11 years- not constantly, but every year, something is added, upgraded or changed. The living room had been wired with Monster speaker cable and when I saw the end, I laughed. The jacket is over 1/2" diameter, but the wires are 16 ga and a single solid strand, separated "because bass and treble travel at different speeds". The fact that they're connected at the amp's binding posts doesn't seem to matter to anyone who has been asked to explain how this is supposed to work.

The first reps who came into our store in the early-'80s were funny- they had absolutely no technical background and no idea how to explain why we should sell their crap, other than their trainers said the cables were better.

I know a rep who says "It's experiential" whenever I comment that these bizarre devices and cables don't matter. Credibility- it's not for everyone.

 

[highfigh]

Let's not over-work that error correction

If I had a dollar for every CD player that had to take a knee because its error correction was gassed, I'd, well, have nothing.

 

[Speedskater]

Think of Stereophile (and even more so TAS) reviews as science fiction short stories without a plot.
I am amazed that their reviewers can write so many words about nothing.

 

[Mikado463]

I am amazed that their reviewers can write so many words about nothing.

perhaps that's how they are paid ............

 

[Swerd]

When they publish stuff like this: (From Michael Fremer's review of the Ypsilon Hyperion amplifier)…

You read reviews of monoblock amps that cost $93,000 per pair and expect more than mellifluous-sounding nonsense ?

I quickly glanced at the 2-page written review. Fremer clearly had little to say about the amps themselves, so he padded heavily to fill the required space. He had as much to say about the music he played, the interconnect cables, and the AC power cables as he did about the amps.

And finally, I have the obvious question for anyone who might believe these absurd claims. Why would amplifiers that cost $93,000 a pair not have the world's most overbuilt power supply section, including the power cables? I noted that Fremer twice pointed out that the amps contained premium wires:

Its dedicated negative power supply includes a custom C-core input transformer, wound with silver wire…

In addition to the chokes, the power supply incorporates 112,800µF of capacitance to keep ripple voltage negligible at all power-output levels. Internal connections are made with Ypsilon's own specially drawn silver wire, coated with Teflon.​

One could try to argue that high cost aftermarket AC power cables might make an audible difference in cheap receivers or amps, but never in ultra-premium amps. Its irrational to claim that only overpriced high-end amps benefit from such tweaks.

Edit:
Of course, its also irrational to claim that aftermarket AC power cables make an audible difference in ANY amp or receiver, without providing evidence from listening tests. Convincing evidence would have to come from more than one un-blinded listener.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You read reviews of monoblock amps that cost $93,000 per pair and expect more than mellifluous-sounding nonsense ?

I quickly glanced at the 2-page written review. Fremer clearly had little to say about the amps themselves, so he padded heavily to fill the required space. He had as much to say about the music he played, the interconnect cables, and the AC power cables as he did about the amps.

And finally, I have the obvious question for anyone who might believe these absurd claims. Why would amplifiers that cost $93,000 a pair not have the world's most overbuilt power supply section, including the power cables? I noted that Fremer twice pointed out that the amps contained premium wires:

Its dedicated negative power supply includes a custom C-core input transformer, wound with silver wire…

In addition to the chokes, the power supply incorporates 112,800µF of capacitance to keep ripple voltage negligible at all power-output levels. Internal connections are made with Ypsilon's own specially drawn silver wire, coated with Teflon.​

One could try to argue that high cost aftermarket AC power cables might make an audible difference in cheap receivers or amps, but never in ultra-premium amps. Its irrational to claim that only overpriced high-end amps benefit from such tweaks.

Now that I've had a couple of days for my bullshit shields to de-energize, I think your first question is a reasonable one. Especially for hybrid $93,000 per pair power amps.

Your arguments about an amp's power supply masking any effects that a power cable could have are also relevant and have been asked for years, for both power cable manufacturers and reviewers like Fremer. How can they ignore the isolation realities of transformers, capacitors, and rectifiers? I especially like that "specially drawn silver wire" part, like the manufacturing process is akin to that for craft beers or wine making. Of course, the argument for the source is also interesting. A residential power cord a few feet long is important compared to the hundreds of feet of mains from the street transformer and Romex in the walls?

There's just a contradiction regarding a magazine edited by someone everyone respects filled with bullshit like this review that perhaps made me recoil and start this thread. In retrospect it was probably an overreaction, but at least it's been entertaining.

 

[slipperybidness]

Now that I've had a couple of days for my bullshit shields to de-energize, I think your first question is a reasonable one. Especially for hybrid $93,000 per pair power amps.

Your arguments about an amp's power supply masking any effects that a power cable could have are also relevant and have been asked for years, for both power cable manufacturers and reviewers like Fremer. How can they ignore the isolation realities of transformers, capacitors, and rectifiers? I especially like that "specially drawn silver wire" part, like the manufacturing process is akin to that for craft beers or wine making. Of course, the argument for the source is also interesting. A residential power cord a few feet long is important compared to the hundreds of feet of mains from the street transformer and Romex in the walls?

There's just a contradiction regarding a magazine edited by someone everyone respects filled with bullshit like this review that perhaps made me recoil and start this thread. In retrospect it was probably an overreaction, but at least it's been entertaining.

More valid arguments:

If the power cable really made a difference in the signal (measurable and/or audible), then the next logical progression would mean that our electronics lab instrumentation, our chemical/physical lab instrumentation, and our medical equipment would also require such "magic cables".

And, the fact is that all you need for a power cable is an adequate gauge to handle the current draw. Anything beyond adequate is a waste of resources.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

And finally, I have the obvious question for anyone who might believe these absurd claims. Why would amplifiers that cost $93,000 a pair not have the world's most overbuilt power supply section, including the power cables? ...

Or, the best specs on the planet? The distortion goes up out of the gate, 0.1% at 2W, FR looks horrid for that price.

 

[shadyJ]

.. is a waste of resources.

"waste of resources" is the story of pretty much all high-end audio, if you look at it from a purely functional perspective.

 

[mtrycrafts]

"waste of resources" is the story of pretty much all high-end audio, if you look at it from a purely functional perspective.

It should be just called audio jewelry, similar to watches, etc.

 

[lovinthehd]

What hi-end products aren't a waste of resources to some extent?

 

[Mikado463]

what do you guys consider 'high end' ? at what point / cost does one ascend into the 'high end' ?

 

[lovinthehd]

what do you guys consider 'high end' ? at what point / cost does one ascend into the 'high end' ?

When it gets silly and prettier than useful?

 

[Mikado463]

When it gets silly and prettier than useful?

come on lovin, you can do better that that for crying out loud !

 

[lovinthehd]

come on lovin, you can do better that that for crying out loud !

I'll sleep on it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Still think that about covers it. High end might mean better made/more reliable but that doesn't always pan out.

 

[Mikado463]

Ok lovin, now we're getting somewhere, I agree with your sentence. I will add that a large segment of the 'high end' crowd assumes that one needs to spend copious amounts of $$ to legitimize what they believe to be a better piece of gear (sonically speaking). While this may be true (to a point) with speakers, what drives me nuts to see is big $$$ put into ones speakers only to have a room that is an acoustical nightmare.

 

[shadyJ]

what drives me nuts to see is big $$$ put into ones speakers only to have a room that is an acoustical nightmare.

Very often big expensive flashy speakers like that are bought as status symbols, not for whatever sound quality advantage they might have, i.e., they are not about the sound.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Very often big expensive flashy speakers like that are bought as status symbols, not for whatever sound quality advantage they might have, i.e., they are not about the sound.

Yeah, that's me. $28K worth of speakers purchased just as status symbols. They go with my $12 watch.

And this whole discussion about high-end audio being a waste of resources. I know, let's all get back to nature, sell all of our stuff, join a commune, and grow our own pot and radishes. You don't need subwoofers for folk music either, so focusing on that'll save some resources too.

Y'all have gone off the rails.

 

[Mikado463]

Irv, you're missing the point (mine at least), I'm just trying to see what the folks here deem as 'high end' and not trying to point a figure. Perhaps we (I) should't highjack this thread and start another to see if will get any traction .....