Going to an AVR Preamp. Diehard 2chan guy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that is a bit harsh. I don't see anyone getting "all mouth and trousers."
I think there is just some to and fro banter.

I think we should look at the issue from a functional point of view, which should be the point of any categorizations.

So I think the point particular categorization is to separate systems which keep voltage amplification separate from power amplification.

So if a preamp has a tuner or not is of little to no consequence in terms of powering.

So I regard it functionally as a separated system if the power amps are discrete in another cabinet with its own power supply.

I believe this to be best practice and it allows for easy interpositon of devices between voltage and power amplification like active crossovers. It also allows for an unlimited arrangement of power amplification.

If you can show measurements of Pre-pros vs AVR that are within similar price class that could have audible differences, then it's an issue.

For example, Pre-pro SNR 120dBA vs AVR SNR 90dBA.

Otherwise, if the measurements are basically equal, what's the issue?

 

[PENG]

What about "AV Amplifier" ?

I hope his answer is negative, because Denon claimed it's a "first", albeit in a somewhat ambiguous way, i.e. "...the world’s first 13.2 channel AV Amplifier....

 

[TechHDS]

I hope his answer is negative, because Denon claimed (albeit in an ambiguous way) it's a "first" in the world.

oh Ouch! they sure did..

 

[RichB]

If you can show measurements of Pre-pros vs AVR that are within similar price class that could have audible differences, then it's an issue.

For example, Pre-pro SNR 120dBA vs AVR SNR 90dBA.

Otherwise, if the measurements are basically equal, what's the issue?

The measurements are hardly ever equal. The point then becomes do they sound different. I have spent some effort to determine that the RX-A820 AVR amp level matched to the ATI AT522H both using under 10 watts in SBT's do sound different.

With different speakers, different amps, different AVR's, and different ears, there may be different results. Can they sound different? Yes they can.

- Rich

 

[TLS Guy]

If you can show measurements of Pre-pros vs AVR that are within similar price class that could have audible differences, then it's an issue.

For example, Pre-pro SNR 120dBA vs AVR SNR 90dBA.

Otherwise, if the measurements are basically equal, what's the issue?

Its not just a measurement issue. It is especially a flexibility of design issue more than anything else. But talking of measurements they are not conducted in a way that would discern the difference.

You need to look carefully at the performance of the voltage amp sections when the power sections are stressed enough to really load the power supply. Also magnetic induction into high gain circuits becomes an issue also, and can affect S/N parameters.

Again I have to stress flexibility of design which is not a measurement issue.

I firmly believe putting voltage gain, processing and switching circuits in the same box as a bunch of power amps, is a bad plan and frankly poor engineering practice.

 

[PENG]

@ OP Please come back on your Thread, I bought a broom but it's not the broomstick kind, took the stick part off that hurts! Still got Dat knot on my head.

I like OP ematthew's threads because they typically provide us with a lot of fun even when he's out or just monitoring on the side.

 

[PENG]

The measurements are hardly ever equal. The point then becomes do they sound different. I have spent some effort to determine that the RX-A820 AVR amp level matched to the ATI AT522H both using under 10 watts in SBT's do sound different.

With different speakers, different amps, different AVR's, and different ears, there may be different results. Can they sound different? Yes they can.

- Rich

Did you try to compare them using 0.5W as I suggested? As I mentioned before, 10 W average is a lot for the A820. I just ordered a 5 W class A amp, can't wait to compare it with my A21, using 0.2 W average, or even lower if I could still get 70 dB spl average from 8 ft.

 

[RichB]

Did you try to compare them using 0.5W as I suggested? As I mentioned before, 10 W average is a lot for the A820. I just ordered a 5 W class A amp, can't wait to compare it with my A21, using 0.2 W average, or even lower if I could still get 70 dB spl average from 8 ft.

No, but shouldn’t music produce lower average voltage than a non-attenuated sine-wave?

I am listening at 10 feet as you suggested. I’ll fire up REW and get an SPL max SPL measurement. My guess is 33 on the Oppo (2.7 volts) is in low 80 dB range at my listening position.

- Rich

 

[TechHDS]

I think that is a bit harsh. I don't see anyone getting "all mouth and trousers."
I think there is just some to and fro banter.

I think we should look at the issue from a functional point of view, which should be the point of any categorizations.

So I think the point particular categorization is to separate systems which keep voltage amplification separate from power amplification.

So if a preamp has a tuner or not is of little to no consequence in terms of powering.

So I regard it functionally as a separated system if the power amps are discrete in another cabinet with its own power supply.

I believe this to be best practice and it allows for easy interpositon of devices between voltage and power amplification like active crossovers. It also allows for an unlimited arrangement of power amplification.

Okay I got a little carried away with frustration. It's not easy keeping up with all the terminology and Technical knowledge that you guys have over most of us in here. So I sorry, So Monoblock amps are the why to go right? I mean, why would anyone want to bi-amp a pair of speaker's? When all you would really need is for each speaker to have it's on power supply. Wouldn't that be a better solution than just removing the jumpers. I read this all the time someone adds a multi channel amp and the first thing is, man I can use 4 channels to Bi-amp my L/R mains, use the amps in my 'AVR' everyone should know when they look at the rail it's One Rail! on most, 'AVR''s unless your up the food chain with some mid to entry-level Flagships, than you get symmetrical design like Yamahas than you have Onkyos famous block design.v There isn't a bunch of Amps in a AVR! So back to Bi-amping speaker's, without removing the crossover in each speaker and without adding a EQ between pre-amp and amp. Removing just the jumpers isn't Bi-amping. I'm going look at eMatthews L/R mains again with the nice Sub, and his Really nice ATi amp made by them dudes in California.

 

[lovinthehd]

"Integrated AVR" and "AVR Pre" have never been in my vocabulary, but I assume "Integrated AVR" means "AVR" and "AVR Pre" means Pre-Pro.

Personally I don't consider Integrated Amp or Pre-Pro as "separates". I think these are nothing more than AVRs sans the internal amps and some other components.

I also think it's risible when companies exclude EQ software (like Audyssey Dynamic EQ) from their Pre-pros and claim it's because it makes their Pre-pros more "pure" and better sounding.

IMO, separates include Analog Stereo Preamplifiers and Analog Amplifiers.

However, sometimes I will say that Integrated Amps are "separates" only because a lot of guys think that Integrated Amps are separates - so I'm mainly just quoting these guys.

LOL just needling. It just sort of surprised me when you particularly called the integrated amp a "separate". The europeans do call AVRs AV amps but doesn't reflect the inclusion of the tuner/internet sections IMO. AVR Pre can be an AVR used as a pre, that I can understand but if it is an AVR it has amps. Integrated AVR is just weird.

 

[PENG]

No, but shouldn’t music produce lower average voltage than a non-attenuated sine-wave?

I am listening at 10 feet as you suggested. I’ll fire up REW and get an SPL max SPL measurement. My guess is 33 on the Oppo (2.7 volts) is in low 80 dB range at my listening position.

- Rich

I think it depends on how you came up with "both using under 10 watts in SBT's......."? If the "10 watts" was read from a watt meter (in my case my amp has them), then it is a lot for the A820 when the peak requirements are considered. If the "10 watts" number was calculated it using voltages read from a multimeter that measured true rms, then 10 watts is still 10 watts average, or if we go by the commonly used incorrect term, "rms power".

If the spl you are getting 10 ft from the speakers are in fact in the low 80's, then okay but if in the high 80's then the A820 might have been struggling depending on the music contents. When I suggested 10 ft, I believe I also suggested 75 dB average.

I am sure you are hearing the difference, just wondering how much of that is due to the A820 being under powered for the inefficient speakers.

 

[PENG]

LOL just needling. It just sort of surprised me when you particularly called the integrated amp a "separate". The europeans do call AVRs AV amps but doesn't reflect the inclusion of the tuner/internet sections IMO. AVR Pre can be an AVR used as a pre, that I can understand but if it is an AVR it has amps. Integrated AVR is just weird.

As far as I know the Europeans uses the same "AVR" term except for the Denon AVC-X8500H that does not have AM/FM tuners built in.

 

[lovinthehd]

As far as I know the Europeans uses the same "AVR" term except for the Denon AVC-X8500H that does not have AM/FM tuners built in.

I'd still consider the internet/network access a tuner of sorts, an onboard source but modernized. Radio can be had by the internet....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope his answer is negative, because Denon claimed it's a "first", albeit in a somewhat ambiguous way, i.e. "...the world’s first 13.2 channel AV Amplifier....

Denon likes to be the 1st at everything.

When they made the AVP-A1HDCI they said it was the world’s first fully balanced pre-pro.

 

[<eargiant]

I wouldn't think so, using a Fake speaker never was my cup of tea. Never liked that idea some Subs use a ' passive radiator' but in a sub use of one I believe it's used to cut down on "cuffing" port noise mostly. But far be it for me to say.

I hear you- I'm sure some manufacturers tried to pass off passive radiators as a fake speaker but they're really not. They're just an alternative to a port. From what I understand every design choice has it's pros and cons and from all the speakers I've ever heard, no speaker is perfect.

I'm not an expert either but from experience I can tell you that a PR can be quite effective if done properly. I have the smaller version of the speaker reviewed below (with half as many 6.5" drivers) and I can tell you that the bass and sub-bass is intense. True sub-bass. Deep, clean and tight. You have to hear these things to appreciate the low end content, it's all there. They will put many dedicated subs to shame.

Here are some quotes from Julian Hirsch (an objectivist deity in some circles) when he measured and reviewed the big version in 1985. Seems like the passive radiator did a good job when paired with 6.5" drivers.

"We have never measured a low-bass distortion level as low as that of the SDA-SRS"

"The Composite frequency response was flat within +/- 4.5dB from 20 to 20,000 Hz, exceptional performance no matter how you look at it."

"Finally, since the IQS analyzer can measure down to lower frequencies than our regular response plotting equipment, we found that the passive radiator response varied a total of only 7db between 12 and 90hz. Polk calls the passive radiator a "sub-bass driver" - with good reason!"

"One of the most serendipitous aspects of living with the Polk SDA-SRS was the rediscovery of low-bass content in many programs. We seldom encounter speakers with response below the audible range. It is quite an experience."

Read the full review here:
https://polksda.com/srsreview.shtml

Now back to separates, integrateds and receivers...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You need to look carefully at the performance of the voltage amp sections when the power sections are stressed enough to really load the power supply. Also magnetic induction into high gain circuits becomes an issue also, and can affect S/N parameters.

Oh, no, I am talking about the preamp section of the AVR.

When the AVR is used only as a preamp, are there significant differences in the measurements of the preamp section of the AVR vs Pre-pro (SNR vs SNR, FR vs FR, THD vs THD).

Some time ago I must have looked into that. I should look again.

 

[PENG]

Denon likes to be the 1st at everything.

When they made the AVP-A1HDCI they said it was the world’s first fully balanced pre-pro.

That one may actually be the first and only.. Do you know of another multi-channel (multi>>2) prepro that is balanced from end to end all the way?

 

[PENG]

I hear you- I'm sure some manufacturers tried to pass off passive radiators as a fake speaker but they're really not. They're just an alternative to a port. From what I understand every design choice has it's pros and cons and from all the speakers I've ever heard, no speaker is perfect.

I'm not an expert either but from experience I can tell you that a PR can be quite effective if done properly. I have the smaller version of the speaker reviewed below (with half as many 6.5" drivers) and I can tell you that the bass and sub-bass is intense. True sub-bass. Deep, clean and tight. You have to hear these things to appreciate the low end content, it's all there. They will put many dedicated subs to shame.

Here are some quotes from Julian Hirsch (an objectivist deity in some circles) when he measured and reviewed the big version in 1985. Seems like the passive radiator did a good job when paired with 6.5" drivers.

"We have never measured a low-bass distortion level as low as that of the SDA-SRS"

"The Composite frequency response was flat within +/- 4.5dB from 20 to 20,000 Hz, exceptional performance no matter how you look at it."

"Finally, since the IQS analyzer can measure down to lower frequencies than our regular response plotting equipment, we found that the passive radiator response varied a total of only 7db between 12 and 90hz. Polk calls the passive radiator a "sub-bass driver" - with good reason!"

"One of the most serendipitous aspects of living with the Polk SDA-SRS was the rediscovery of low-bass content in many programs. We seldom encounter speakers with response below the audible range. It is quite an experience."

Read the full review here:
https://polksda.com/srsreview.shtml

Now back to separates, integrateds and receivers...

Thank you, I was looking for a good example of using multiple 6.5" drivers to produce good bass comparable to that of 10" or even larger size drivers for TLSGuy, now you've found a good one for him. He has since qualified his initial claim, that he said was based on book shelf speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AudioControl M9 $9,000 Pre-pro:
FR +0.04dB@ 20Hz, -0.03dB @ 20kHz
SNR: 118dBA
THD: 0.02%
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audiocontrol-maestro-m9-surround-processor-review-test-bench

Krell Foundation $6,500 Pre-pro:
FR -0.01dB@ 20Hz, 0.00dB @ 20kHz
SNR: 128dBA
THD: 0.009%
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/krell-foundation-surround-processor

Denon AVR-3400 $1000 AVR:
FR -0.01dB@ 20Hz, +0.1dB @ 20kHz
SNR: 110dBA
THD: 0.004%
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench


As expected, these very high-end Pre-pros have better SNR than the $1,000 Denon AVR-3400 (which is usually $550-$600 on sale).

But who's going to hear the difference between a SNR of 110dBA vs 118dBA vs 128dBA?

Still very insignificant, but the Denon actually has lower THD than both of these very high-end Pre-pros.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That one may actually be the first and only.. Do you know of another multi-channel (multi>>2) prepro that is balanced from end to end all the way?

I have looked and cannot find another PRE-PRO that is fully balanced from input to output.

It seems like all the fully balanced preamps out there are 2 Channel only, not multi-channel, like you said.