Going to an AVR Preamp. Diehard 2chan guy

[KEW]

Raymond Cooke in his wisdom when designing the classic B139 bass driver made it elliptical. So you could have a large driver in a narrow cabinet. Why on earth there are not a host of elliptical bass drivers is beyond me. It is an absolute no brainer.

I have to believe it is a concern over flex/resonance in the driver. Much of the stiffness of a simple cone is lost when you make it oblong so you have more mass along the long axis and less along the short axis. The elongated cone will be prone to bending along the long axis, but a simple cone will naturally behave uniformly across all axes because of the radial symmetry.

 

[PENG]

Using multiple drivers is the best way to handle the power demands from 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz or so. What adding drivers does not do is lower fs and therefore f3. So if you have a 6" driver in a box and then make a box for four of them The box will be four times larger, but the F3 will be the same. It will not play lower than the single driver. However spl will be much increased.

80 Hz is an easy target. There are plenty of examples of speakers using 7" LF drivers to reach F3<80 Hz or even 50 Hz, below is one.

http://persona.paradigm.com/persona/specs.php?model=persona-5f

You know the F3 of those will be well below 80 Hz, probably around 40 Hz anechoic and 25 Hz in most rooms. I didn't know you were referring to book shelves, in that case I would agree. I do suspect Dennis Murphy may tell you bookshelves using 7" or even 6.5" drivers, if designed for it, could have F3 reaching below 80 Hz as well.

 

[TLS Guy]

50 to 60 Hz is an easy target also, for a bookshelf. The issue we are primarily talking about though is power bandwidth not f3. That is not something you ever glean from the specs. Manufacturers are way optimistic.

It is the power bandwidth, as I pointed out in my previous post that makes a small bookshelf with 6" drivers, or smaller, and sub nowhere near equivalent to a tower and subs.

Of course it is power bandwidth against frequency that is actually more important than F3, especially if subs are involved.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@ematthews and @AcuDefTechGuy You guys are getting confusing with terminology. What the hell is an Integrated AVR? What is an AVR Pre?
How does an Integrated Amp qualify as "separates"?

"Integrated AVR" and "AVR Pre" have never been in my vocabulary, but I assume "Integrated AVR" means "AVR" and "AVR Pre" means Pre-Pro.

Personally I don't consider Integrated Amp or Pre-Pro as "separates". I think these are nothing more than AVRs sans the internal amps and some other components.

I also think it's risible when companies exclude EQ software (like Audyssey Dynamic EQ) from their Pre-pros and claim it's because it makes their Pre-pros more "pure" and better sounding.

IMO, separates include Analog Stereo Preamplifiers and Analog Amplifiers.

However, sometimes I will say that Integrated Amps are "separates" only because a lot of guys think that Integrated Amps are separates - so I'm mainly just quoting these guys.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is the power bandwidth, as I pointed out in my previous post that makes a small bookshelf with 6" drivers, or smaller, and sub nowhere near equivalent to a tower and subs.

I think most people would definitely agree.

As people move up the speaker food chain, most people tend to prefer bigger speakers over smaller speakers.

 

[PENG]

50 to 60 Hz is an easy target also, for a bookshelf. The issue we are primarily talking about though is power bandwidth not f3. That is not something you ever glean from the specs. Manufacturers are way optimistic.

It is the power bandwidth, as I pointed out in my previous post that makes a small bookshelf with 6" drivers, or smaller, and sub nowhere near equivalent to a tower and subs.

Of course it is power bandwidth against frequency that is actually more important than F3, especially if subs are involved.

Power bandwidth, right.. LOL your original points have since evolved/expanded/clarified, to the point I could no longer disagree with you!!

 

[PENG]

Personally I don't consider Integrated Amp or Pre-Pro as "separates". I think these are nothing more than AVRs sans the internal amps and some other components.

Agree, and I doubt too many would disagree that integrated and prepros are not separates. For example, Denon X8500H European version is an "AV amplifier", so if you remove the cover, cut a few wires to make the Video section dead, it would become an integrated amp, but that won't make it a "separate".

Note: Heavily edited to avoid further confusion, and potential attacks.

 

[TechHDS]

Agree, and I doubt too many would disagree that integrated and prepros are not separates. For example, Denon X8500H European version is an Integrated receiver, open the box, cut a few wires to make the tuner dead, it became an integrated amp, but that won't make it a "separate".

Look man you guys are getting to strung out with terminology. Let's all just agree to disagree on issues with audio video gear and leave out all the BS! When I first joint audioholics website, My first intentions where to share my experiences with this Hobbie my love for this Hobbie
and what 'tech' knowledge I do have, but I got bushwhacked by the usual BS that goes on not only on this site but others. Not everyone wants, needs, or even has the resources for totally separate SS and analog system. All separate systems starts with the Pre-amp Amp, Tuner, a stand alone am/fm. HD tuner, if you still like free music than get yourself one. Than your source be it a TT, CD player, Pre-pro processor or just a processer, Now with the millennials you have, PC and now you can stream you source. What gets me about some on these audio/video forms and website is when 'New' join up, One of the first things that happens is #1. they get the wrong info cause someone is trying to make a sale and #2. everyone gets in a pissing contest. Now ask yourselfs why people come on these sites jacks around some. I left EMOS, aka, 'Lounge' cause if you mention anything about Emos gear you didn't like or say anything about what issues you were having with emo gear, you got banned! So before I got banned I left a bunch of fires burning from what I was told the place was almost a total lost. ADTG, Rock on Man!, I'm rolling out!. You guys know what ADTG, was trying to convey and now you want to get in a pissing contest with it. What? would Harmon have to come back from his grave to explain everything all over again to you guys? Geez man ya'll are ruining this Hobbie. No wonder people don't hardy come in anymore. ADTG, I will send you a email.

Just my .02 cent..

 

[RichB]

^ If I may suggest, please consider using paragraphs to make your comments easier to read.

Some here are familiar with the OP @ematthews. He is definitely enthusiast with and willing to try and switch his gear.

In that spirit, I think the discussion tended to gravitate toward separates.
Personally, I do not recommend gear for people to buy, but rather share my experiences and philosophy behind my purchases. Big boys and girls can make up their own minds.

I do agree that forums get entirely too personal and can relate to your experiences on the Emo forum. I got lambasted for pointing out the XMC-1 takes near 1 minute to power-up and dared to suggest that taking that to under 15 seconds would be greatly appreciated. Constructive critism requires armor plating

Cheers,

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I left EMO Lounge cause if you mention anything about Emo gear you didn't like or say anything about what issues you were having with Emo gear you got banned!

I can relate to your experiences on the Emo forum. I got lambasted for pointing out the XMC-1 takes near 1 minute to power-up...

That is so wrong.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agree, and I doubt too many would disagree that integrated and prepros are not separates. For example, Denon X8500H European version is an Integrated receiver, open the box, cut a few wires to make the tuner dead, it became an integrated amp, but that won't make it a "separate".

I didn't realize "Integrated Receiver" is actually a word they officially use. Must be a European thing?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm rolling out!

Are you going back to Best Buy to harass those Geek Squad boys some more?

 

[PENG]

I didn't realize "Integrated Receiver" is actually a word they officially use. Must be a European thing?

No, they did not, I made a mistake. I always knew the official term they used, but I didn't sleep much last night. They called it "AV amplifier". I edited my post accordingly. Thank you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, they did not, I made a mistake. I always knew the official term they used, but I didn't sleep much last night. They called it "AV amplifier". I edited my post accordingly. Thank you.

I like "Audio Video Amplifier" a lot better than "Audio Video Receiver".

The Denon AVC-X8500H - Audio Video Controller, not Receiver.

https://www.avforums.com/review/denon-avc-x8500h-13-2-channel-av-amplifier-review.14693

So just remove the AM/FM Radio Tuner and you get an "AV Amplifier", which would make it eligible to be a "Separate".

And, of course, "separates" sound so much better than "AVR" just because they are separates.

 

[PENG]

Look man you guys are getting to strung out with terminology. Let's all just agree to disagree on issues with audio video gear and leave out all the BS! When I first joint audioholics website. My first intentions where to share my experiences with this Hobbie my love for this Hobbie

I was busy going back and forth with TLSGuy on the driver size vs F3's and have no idea about who started this terminology thing. I agreed with ADTG on what he said in that one particular post about the term "separates", and still have not read any other posts other than ADTG's related to terminologies. Regardless, I always agree to disagree.

 

[TLS Guy]

I didn't realize "Integrated Receiver" is actually a word they officially use. Must be a European thing?

Never heard it there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Never heard it there.

What about "AV Amplifier" ?

 

[TLS Guy]

I have to believe it is a concern over flex/resonance in the driver. Much of the stiffness of a simple cone is lost when you make it oblong so you have more mass along the long axis and less along the short axis. The elongated cone will be prone to bending along the long axis, but a simple cone will naturally behave uniformly across all axes because of the radial symmetry.

I have just seen your post. I was thinking in terms of a bass driver and not mid/woofer.

I agree with what you said, but you can build a driver that has exemplary behavior below 900 Hz as does the B 139. That means you can cross 400 to 500 Hz with a passive network and lower with an active network. What you really want in a three way is a really good wide band mid range driver that can handle the whole speech discrimination band. You don't need to drive a bass driver anywhere near break up in a three way.

Right now options are slim to none to design a good narrow front three way. So you end up either with a wide baffle, complex carpentry like mine, or multiple enclosures like Dennis had to do or solutions like the B & W 800 series.

 

[TechHDS]

I was busy going back and forth with TLSGuy on the driver size vs F3's and have no idea about who started this terminology thing. I agreed with ADTG on what he said in that one particular post about the term "separates", and still have not read any other posts other than ADTG's related to terminologies. Regardless, I always agree to disagree.

lol.. I used your post because your rolling too! With a few of us. I don't always read a Thread, I browse a lot of threats read what I like jump in. @ OP Please come back on your Thread, I bought a broom but it's not the broomstick kind, took the stick part off that hurts! Still got Dat knot on my head.

 

[TLS Guy]

Look man you guys are getting to strung out with terminology. Let's all just agree to disagree on issues with audio video gear and leave out all the BS! When I first joint audioholics website. My first intentions where to share my experiences with this Hobbie my love for this Hobbie
and what 'tech' knowledge I do have, but I got bushwhacked by the usual BS that goes on not only on this site but others. Not everyone wants, needs, or even has the resources for totally separate SS and analog system. All separate systems starts with the Pre-amp Amp, Tuner a stand alone am/fm HD tuner if you still like free music than get yourself one. Than your source be it a TT, CD player, Pre-pro processor or just a processer, Now with the millennials you have PC and now you can stream you source. What gets me about some on these audio/video forms and website is when 'New' join up, One of the first things that happens is #1. they get the wrong info cause someone is trying to make a sale and #2. everyone gets in a pissing contest. Now ask yourself why people come on these sites jacks around some. I left EMOS, aka, 'Lounge' cause if you mention anything about Emos gear you didn't like or say anything about what issues you were having with emo gear you got banned! ADTG, Rock on Man!, I'm rolling out!. You guys know what ADTG, was trying to convey and now you want to get in a pissing contest with it. What? would Harmon have to come back from his grave to explain everything all over again to you guys? Geez man ya'll are ruining this Hobbie. No wonder people don't hardy come in anymore. ADTG, I will send you a email.

Just my .02 cent..

I think that is a bit harsh. I don't see anyone getting "all mouth and trousers."
I think there is just some to and fro banter.

I think we should look at the issue from a functional point of view, which should be the point of any categorizations.

So I think the point particular categorization is to separate systems which keep voltage amplification separate from power amplification.

So if a preamp has a tuner or not is of little to no consequence in terms of powering.

So I regard it functionally as a separated system if the power amps are discrete in another cabinet with its own power supply.

I believe this to be best practice and it allows for easy interpositon of devices between voltage and power amplification like active crossovers. It also allows for an unlimited arrangement of power amplification.